Balance Patch: design insights + full changelog

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what's the point of releasing new patches when you can't fix random fps drops/ping spikes for months
smh...
unplayable game
 
Had a chance to test these changes and they are just as nice as they look! Big thanks to @NIN3 and the MP development team along with the passionate community members who have used these forums as a way to suggest many of these improvements.
 
Looking at the big changelog for Sturgia, i think this confirms what I already know: that them being a bad faction is an intentional design decision.

Will have to see how the archer balance changes play out, cuz I do not appreciate this game devolving into what can best be described as "tacticool shooter with a medieval coat of paint". That said, i feel like the Aserai skirmisher buffs will most definitely lead to Aserai matchups being a game of dodgeball.

I will miss the Falx being a bastard sword, though I think the nerf was expected due to how much better Improved Armor for the Savage was compared to the other perks.
 
Thanks everyone!
Sturgia warrior better axe perk (raider axe) has stats for thrust dmg and thrust speed despite it not being able to thrust.
Edit: same goes for sturgia hunter(raider axe), sturgian Druzhinnik(raider cavalry axe) and aserai Guard (Tabad and Bardiche).
Good spot, will be fixed within the next couple of updates!

Looking at the big changelog for Sturgia, i think this confirms what I already know: that them being a bad faction is an intentional design decision.
Not sure what you mean. Its definitely not a design decision. I mean they have been one of the best factions in the game (skirmish) for quite a while now. With nearly a 56% winrate in the last couple of thousand games. Thats even better than Battania and as good as Vlandia. Also in BEAST and other tournaments they were over performing regularly.
 
Well, from my own personal experience (Skirmish perspective), i feel like there's barely any room for flexibility in Sturgia's playstyle. In earlier versions of the game, it was apparent to me that people who picked the Warrior or Brigand really only succeed in wasting a player slot, with the Varyag and Berserker being what carries an otherwise unimpressive faction. The Raider is a pretty decent unit in terms of what he offers as a light cavalry class, and I've personally found the Hunter to be a tad unimpressive for a 120 cost archer vs the Battanian counterpart.

While I haven't really had the chance to play Skirmish matches as or against Sturgia, my experience with Siege and TDM gave a very poor first impression on what Sturgia has to offer with the current version of the game. I will admit that I do like the buffs to throwing axes (you can use them as axes again, rather than just be throwing sticks!), though I still feel that I should mention my strong disagreements with TaleWorlds' insistence that the 100 cost Warrior's spear being as short as it is, since you need at least a reach of 184 to competently stab horses assuming default weapons (i.e: not picking the Line Breaker perk)... probably more since Long Infantry Spears are looking to be the default light cavalry polearm now.
 
And not a word from you on your changes to horse archers. I think you know exactly what you did. Here my feedback thread https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/1-6-4-price-policy.448068
I mean aside from your weird uncalled for, toxicity, I gladly take feedback. Actually this patch buffs mounted archers, if you check the changelog and stats properly. They have a new bow now (that only they are using), the Nomad Bow, and the Recurve Bow they are getting as a perk has been buffed (more damage and accuracy) aswell.

The only reason for their price hike was that they were forgotten when we increased prices for cavalry troops in tdm/siege by popular demand. Just like with their base price, they sit right between light and heavy cavalry price wise. As mentioned in your thread, you can also easily tech them into a useful cavalry class, which many players have obviously exploited during the time only the other cavs saw their price increased.

Again, if we see them drop off in general play I will obviously react to it and decrease the price closer to light cav. I obviously don't have a hidden agenda against horse archers, I dont think you “exactly know what I did”. Like I said I actually buffed them stat wise. Calm down a bit.
 
I mean aside from your weird uncalled for, toxicity, I gladly take feedback. Actually this patch buffs mounted archers, if you check the changelog and stats properly. They have a new bow now (that only they are using), the Nomad Bow, and the Recurve Bow they are getting as a perk has been buffed (more damage and accuracy) aswell.

The only reason for their price hike was that they were forgotten when we increased prices for cavalry troops in tdm/siege by popular demand. Just like with their base price, they sit right between light and heavy cavalry price wise. As mentioned in your thread, you can also easily tech them into a useful cavalry class, which many players have obviously exploited during the time only the other cavs saw their price increased.

Again, if we see them drop off in general play I will obviously react to it and decrease the price closer to light cav. I obviously don't have a hidden agenda against horse archers, I dont think you “exactly know what I did”. Like I said I actually buffed them stat wise. Calm down a bit.
In that case my sincere apologies. I wrote this after playing TDM a whole evening trying to play my favorite class which I love improving myself on, and Khuzait was voted in more or less only twice and the horse archer I achieved also only twice so yes, some level of frustration might have played into my formulations. I thought the agenda thing. Although I am still a little frosty about back when the aim was nerfed so significantly - as it is now is kind of playable with (as said) *significant* amount of training, which right now is kind of impossible to get. Thanks for your answer.
 
In that case my sincere apologies. I wrote this after playing TDM a whole evening trying to play my favorite class which I love improving myself on, and Khuzait was voted in more or less only twice and the horse archer I achieved also only twice so yes, some level of frustration might have played into my formulations. I thought the agenda thing. Although I am still a little frosty about back when the aim was nerfed so significantly - as it is now is kind of playable with (as said) *significant* amount of training, which right now is kind of impossible to get. Thanks for your answer.
Yeah I get that, no worries!

Actually I found it quite encouraging seeing them used more and more in even competitive skirmish over the past few months. I hope this will still be the case, maybe even a bit more with the buffs. Still, I think that's also what you are saying, it should stay as a somewhat fringe class, as it requires a high skill ceiling to play. And that what makes the class so unqiue, outside of the obvious bow+horse combo. I guess it would be a bad sign for balance if suddenly everyone would be playing as a horse archer. Anway, I will definitely keep an eye out on the tdm/siege price, if it's too high now or not.

Have a nice weekend!
 
Yeah I get that, no worries!

Actually I found it quite encouraging seeing them used more and more in even competitive skirmish over the past few months. I hope this will still be the case, maybe even a bit more with the buffs. Still, I think that's also what you are saying, it should stay as a somewhat fringe class, as it requires a high skill ceiling to play. And that what makes the class so unqiue, outside of the obvious bow+horse combo. I guess it would be a bad sign for balance if suddenly everyone would be playing as a horse archer. Anway, I will definitely keep an eye out on the tdm/siege price, if it's too high now or not.

Have a nice weekend!
Agreed, I know not everyone likes them and playing 2-3 matches infantry in between horse archer training is no problem for me as that's stressful fun as well, but when there were matches with Khuzait I really enjoyed it the last weeks as they are indeed picked up more and the enemy having their counters it made for some really interesting matches which can go both ways. Thank you, and a nice weekend to you!
 
Thanks everyone!

Good spot, will be fixed within the next couple of updates!


Not sure what you mean. Its definitely not a design decision. I mean they have been one of the best factions in the game (skirmish) for quite a while now. With nearly a 56% winrate in the last couple of thousand games. Thats even better than Battania and as good as Vlandia. Also in BEAST and other tournaments they were over performing regularly.
I know this update was largely skirmish focused, but I'd like to toss in some thoughts here too.
Sturgia revolves entirely around Varyags and Berserkers. I suspect their good winrates in Skirmish is from solid Varyag + Druz play with timely uses of Berserker.

The problem with captain mode is this is not always valid. Some maps are simply too big to force engagements.
If you have played any of the large open maps with Khuz vs. Sturgia in the last update there's really very little you can do. With the higher arrow loads, better bows, and more Khans on the field, you can't force an engagement, you can't outlast the arrow volleys, you're not guaranteed to beat the increased count Khans in melee, and you honestly just can't do much against a competent team. Unless your enemy makes an enormous mistake there is no way to counter "perfect play" by a mobile archery-heavy opponent.

Sturgia's troops are on average slowish, and have a very low troop count (I think the lowest?). Naturally, this means they struggle against Khuzait. You have to press an engagement to win against archer and cav heavy Khuzait, but Sturgia strangely lacks the tools to do that.

The Warrior speed increase and Brigand T. Axes were both very good moves, but these don't solve the Khuzait issue at all. Brigands are now slightly better against unarmored unshielded enemies at short ranges, which Khuzait does not have save some Rabble loadouts which have such a high troop count it doesn't matter much. Brigands are still a criminally underpowered unit, with no high-ammo jav option, and I believe the weakest melee weapons of any skirmisher. If you take throwing spear, it means your troops need to hold fire the entire game to be effective against cavalry, meaning you should have just taken Varyags.
The Warrior has a very slightly higher speed which could help him close with archers, but the shield is so small that he will never make it there. If you try, cavalry will intercept you, and there's no way for him to take Shield and Spear to protect himself. If you do manage to close, Khans will absolutely destroy you, and even Steppe bows stand a chance in hand to hand with you because you most definitely took a few arrows getting there with your adorable toy shield, and the fact that you survived means you took Improved Armor and do not have a great melee weapon.

This leaves you with either using Brigands with T. Spear to defend from cavalry and possibly survive closing with archers, but they only have 1 more troop than Varyags and significantly less armor, so you may as well use Varyag. Varyags will have a hard time closing with Khans just due to speed, and Khans with reinforcements have almost as many troops. You are in no way guaranteed to kill them once you close (player captains will exploit and annoy), and if you have lost a single troop in the arrow barrage on the way there you're starting to look at very possible melee defeat.

So, what are we going to do, use Druz maybe? Well, horse armor was reduced overall, meaning arrows are more dangerous to horses. To top it off, all but 1 Khuzait unit has a polearm. You're not going to be charging into a 14-Man Khan formation when they all have Glaives and are backed up by pikes and spears. Glaive Cavalry has always been just a hard counter to any other cavalry AI vs AI, and Druz has a fairly low troop count.

Raiders are very hard to play against Khuzaits. Small shields, unarmored horses, they struggle to wipe up even completely undefended Steppe Bows. Make a mistake and your unit can be very quickly wiped by glaive cav, spear inf, or khan's guard. Hang around in the wrong place and any of the bow cav will at least unhorse your troops.

Hunters got a very real buff this patch, and that is awesome. The problem is that on any large map a single Glaive cav can still confuse your troops into shooting each other and kill enough solo that they're not a significant battlefield presence any more. Hunters can outrange some of the Khuzait bows, but their armor is low and troop count is low so they can't exchange fire with them for any span of time and expect to survive. I think the playerbase has to catch up with the concept of hunters being more viable now, especially with Poacher, but they're still just so vulnerable and the AI is so easy to exploit. The lack of a Shield+Spear option on Warriors makes it hard to have enough troops to really protect Hunters from Khuzait cavalry effectively.

This is an edge case of course. On smaller melee-focused maps, or against other opponents, Sturgia's only real strategy of Varyags and Berserkers is very dominant. Perfect play almost guarantees success, it really all just comes down to players exploiting at that point.

All in all, I enjoy playing as or against Sturgia the least because there is just very little flexibility. You are forced to play Varyag in most situations, and are occasionally allowed to play Berserker. You will win or lose based on which map you're on and which faction you're up against, assuming both teams are competent. A 56% percent win rate is not surprising, since its a 1/6 chance you'll be up against the one faction that can really screw you over and you're likely to win against the other factions.

I am also slightly worried we're entering another Archer meta but I'll leave that for another time.

There's some solutions for sure, but I think the core of it is that the Warrior and Brigand are just not up to snuff. This makes Sturgia very predictable and easy to counter with Khuzait.
 
Really enjoying the work you and the team did @NIN3 Playing ranged is very satisfying and there is a big difference between melee focused and sniper focused ranged. Heavy infantry is really fun too! At felt combat felt like it was a bit "slow mo" but now I got the hang of it, it is really fun, much easier to read fakes, which is awesome imo.

Good work man!
 
Sounds like some good steps forward and I like the way you've laid this information out, very informative and interesting to read.

Slip in a little bit of content next time and I may have to reinstall :wink:
 
Really looking forward to the mechanical changes to tackle the Rambo issue. Excited to see what the team comes up with as a solution, while keeping in mind the recommendations from the community in previous discussions.
 
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