Siege Ayzar Stronghold

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Gibkiy_Rafik

Recruit
I have some suggestions for the map:
1) Set some kind of an obstacle covering the siege tower at the end of its route or make consistently hitting it much more difficult. A bunch of players start moving the tower at the start of the round when the rest of the team is stuck on A, C, D points and can't get to the defending team's cata, resulting in tower being smashed really fast. Most of the playerbase knows that moving ram/tower is a good thing, game itself lets you know that it helps the team and gets rewarded with gold, but on this map fast tower deployment is the last thing you need to do, so it kinda stands out of the siege game concept.
2) Catapult on the attacking side seems to have only 1 real purpose - breaking the gates between A and C. I tried to shoot at the walls on E (the tower with ballista and a lower part of it, where the archers usually nest) and managed to break only the couple merlons. This cata looks like it was intended to attack mostly left side of the castle, but this part of it is usually unplayed or has 1 or 2 archers that don't really bother anyone, so there's no need in breaking any walls at that part of the castle. I suggest moving attackers' catapult a bit closer, maybe a bit to the right so I can hit E tower, with a bit of skill E wall, where the lemming jump on the point is usually done, and the G gatehouse. With proper skill it can make the E and F push easier for the attackers, which is important in this sad cavless times.
3)Another unclear purpose of the attackers' cata is sneakily destroying the siege tower, if you manage to get behind enemy lines as a defender. I think this should be the only way to destroy tower when it reached the walls.
4) And yes, I'm still waiting for the poo piles. Maybe even make them interactive to be thrown at them damn khuzait so they have something to eat at last.
 
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NIN3

Level Design, Combat Design
Developer
NW
I have some suggestions for the map:
1) Set some kind of an obstacle covering the siege tower at the end of its route or make consistently hitting it much more difficult. A bunch of players start moving the tower at the start of the round when the rest of the team is stuck on A, C, D points and can't get to the defending team's cata, resulting in tower being smashed really fast. Most of the playerbase knows that moving ram/tower is a good thing, game itself lets you know that it helps the team and gets rewarded with gold, but on this map fast tower deployment is the last thing you need to do, so it kinda stands out of the siege game concept.
2) Catapult on the attacking side seems to have only 1 real purpose - breaking the gates between A and C. I tried to shoot at the walls on E (the tower with ballista and a lower part of it, where the archers usually nest) and managed to break only the couple merlons. This cata looks like it was intended to attack mostly left side of the castle, but this part of it is usually unplayed or has 1 or 2 archers that don't really bother anyone, so there's no need in breaking any walls at that part of the castle. I suggest moving attackers' catapult a bit closer, maybe a bit to the right so I can hit E tower, with a bit of skill E wall, where the lemming jump on the point is usually done, and the G gatehouse. With proper skill it can make the E and F push easier for the attackers, which is important in this sad cavless times.
3)Another unclear purpose of the attackers' cata is sneakily destroying the siege tower, if you manage to get behind enemy lines as a defender. I think this should be the only way to destroy tower when it reached the walls.
4) And yes, I'm still waiting for the poo piles. Maybe even make them interactive to be thrown at them damn khuzait so they have something to eat at last.
Hey thank you for your feedback!

I very much agree with what you are saying about the siege tower, I'll look into it, thanks! I still want the defender catapult to be able to shoot at it during movement, but yeah it would be good to hide it behind the cliff once it's there.

The attacker catapults are a kinda delicate thing to move, I think with the spawn point adjustments you’ll be able to get more kills on the walls but yeah their main purpose is to accelerate the fight early on.
The Problem with moving them forward is that the first fight basically happens right in front of them at the ruins (around A). If I move them any closer, over the dune, they will get very vulnerable to defenders' infantry destroying them. Probably to a degree where they could easily do it every round. Ill look into it though. Thanks again!
 

madnessario

Knight
Hey NIN3, is the fix for the gatehouse (across A) included in the 1.6.3 patch? I am still unable to climb the staircase from the right side (last step).
 

Gibkiy_Rafik

Recruit
Hey thank you for your feedback!

I very much agree with what you are saying about the siege tower, I'll look into it, thanks! I still want the defender catapult to be able to shoot at it during movement, but yeah it would be good to hide it behind the cliff once it's there.

The attacker catapults are a kinda delicate thing to move, I think with the spawn point adjustments you’ll be able to get more kills on the walls but yeah their main purpose is to accelerate the fight early on.
The Problem with moving them forward is that the first fight basically happens right in front of them at the ruins (around A). If I move them any closer, over the dune, they will get very vulnerable to defenders' infantry destroying them. Probably to a degree where they could easily do it every round. Ill look into it though. Thanks again!
Thanks for the reply!

If you test the attackers cata you can see that it needs just 2 or 3 extra meters to land a stone on the further edge of ballista tower over E and a bit more to smash merlons over the point itself, so it doesn't take much moving forward. If you try moving it to be able to aim at G gatehouse, then, of course, you need to move it more close and change the angle, putting it closer to ruins like you said, that would put it in more danger, that's true.
 
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Hans 77

Knight at Arms
WBWF&SVC
The cav price increase is excellent -great job.

That said, the spawns when G is the only flag left have to be adjusted.

The attacker spawns NEED to be moved closer to G in order to make the flag even remotely contestable, because as it stands the spawns are wildly unbalanced in favor of the defenders.

The defenders spawn so much closer to G and it results in an absolute stonewalling of the attackers 9 times out of 10.

Aesthetics-wise, Ayzar Stronghold is one of my favorite maps -really cool design, but in terms of gameplay the unbalanced spawns really bring down what could be the best map available so far.
 

NIN3

Level Design, Combat Design
Developer
NW
The cav price increase is excellent -great job.

That said, the spawns when G is the only flag left have to be adjusted.

The attacker spawns NEED to be moved closer to G in order to make the flag even remotely contestable, because as it stands the spawns are wildly unbalanced in favor of the defenders.

The defenders spawn so much closer to G and it results in an absolute stonewalling of the attackers 9 times out of 10.

Aesthetics-wise, Ayzar Stronghold is one of my favorite maps -really cool design, but in terms of gameplay the unbalanced spawns really bring down what could be the best map available so far.
Thank you!

Yeah the spawnpoint adjustments I teased earlier in this thread will be coming with 1.6.5 (so 2 patches till live)
 

flashn00b

Sergeant
I still can't help but point out that points E and F are impossible to capture to the point where this map is a guaranteed win for the defenders, even if the defending team is Sturgia. The attackers really need to have some more options in capping the point other than "throw bodies at it, hope for the best, lose because it's raining arrows and throwing weapons and oh god they're shooting through my shield".

I think that the areas surrounding the points need to be redesigned from the ground up so as to give the defending players some actual vulnerabilities to exploit.
 

NIN3

Level Design, Combat Design
Developer
NW
I still can't help but point out that points E and F are impossible to capture to the point where this map is a guaranteed win for the defenders, even if the defending team is Sturgia. The attackers really need to have some more options in capping the point other than "throw bodies at it, hope for the best, lose because it's raining arrows and throwing weapons and oh god they're shooting through my shield".

I think that the areas surrounding the points need to be redesigned from the ground up so as to give the defending players some actual vulnerabilities to exploit.
I would like too see first how much the spawnpoint changes are helping it. But I am considering it yes.
 

Hans 77

Knight at Arms
WBWF&SVC
@flashn00b is right about E and F, and it all comes back to the spawns. The attacker spawns when the flags in play are E,F, and G are an absolute Anabasis -it's a half minute marathon just to get anywhere close to E, while the defenders are conveniently plopped down 10 seconds away from their flags. Needs to change.
 

Hans 77

Knight at Arms
WBWF&SVC
When the final flags are E, F, and G the spawns are still laughably skewed in favor of defenders. The attacking team is being spawned very far away from the flags and any fighting in general.

This is bad because it promotes backcapping and other cheesing tactics because it is literally the only way to win as attackers. If attackers don't exploit by backcapping E and F in the beginning then they get straight up destroyed later on when the "proper" fight takes place at those flags -due to spawn attrition. It's unfortunate because sieges are most fun when they're played conventionally instead of one team being forced to resort to boring cheeses throughout the entire match due to the spawns.
 
I don't know if it's a bug or a cheat, but people can use the balista behind the wood wall and being protected from archers...
It's not the first time I see it

1oyyqRW.jpg
 

Roy1012

Banned
As if this castle wasn’t hard enough to defend, now the B spawn is moved so much further it’s practically given to the attackers. I don’t know who was thinking that was a good idea.
 

Hans 77

Knight at Arms
WBWF&SVC
The patch notes for 1.7.2:
  • Ayzar Stronghold
    • Moved flag B closer to the attacker siege tower and added some barricades around it
    • Removed the ladder from the former flag B site
    • Added a new gate in front of flags E and F
    • Reduced some gate and barricade hitpoints
    • Moved the battering ram closer to the main gate
    • Adjusted one of the attacker ballistae that allowed users to hide behind a wooden ramp
    • Adjusted a few spawn positions

Where were the spawns adjusted?

It seems the one place where change was urgently needed -meaning specifically the attacker's spawns when E,F, and G are the only flags left in play, no improvements took place.

The spawns are exactly the same. The attackers are placed so far away from the flags (and the defenders so close) that there is no chance for the attackers to find success and capture and hold the flags -unless the teams are wildly unbalanced in terms of talent level (in which case the map will be a wash anyways). This issue has been brought up time and time and time again with players practically begging for the spawns to be adjusted and made more balanced.

When I read the patch notes, I was optimistic about the possibility of this map (which has a very cool aesthetic) having undergone some much needed improvement, but when I finally played it, I soon learned that nothing had changed. Attackers will get straight cuckolded if the final flags remaining are E,F and G. Attackers can steamroll through A-D flags, but then get unfairly stonewalled by the very bad spawn placements. I guess backcapping and cheesery will continue to be the name of the game on this map, since no real helpful adjustments happened.

It's just really disappointing that an issue like this (which seems easily fixable) can persist for so long. Please adjusts the spawns for real next time.
 
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