Arrows adjustment ideas

[Mushbeast]

Archery muscle memory is way more susceptible to being useless than melee is my point yes, blocking will mostly stay the same while archery is different.

Arrows are already quite a bit slower than they were in warband. The slower you make arrows the more luck is needed for predictions thus making it more of an RNG fest.

More arrow drop also won't matter that much, currently xbows have less drop than bows in 1.5.5 and it doesn't really make a difference as you just account for it. After taking 100 shots you expect the drop and just make an adjustment for it. The only thing you will do is make it harder and more frustrating for new players as it won't make the archery harder for experienced players.

That wouldn't be RNG at all my man, it's simply something you must account for if you're trying to hit a distant target. With the generous amount of arrows you're granted, it makes sense that you would miss a couple and readjust unless, like you said, you're a skilled archer and have a feel for the drop and travel speed. As it is now, there's a very small gap between a completely new player with maybe a bit of experience in FPS games, and a veteran Bannerlord archer. So far it's mainly positioning, twitch aiming and the ability to fight back in melee that separates the good archers from the bad.

It wouldn't be frustrating unless the accuracy of bows was messed with.

Not noticable in skirmish but those distances are tiny. Are captain players gonna have to suffer once again because skirmish players dont like something. I mean in reality a real bow could easly shoot those distances without any arrow drop at all. In captain the distances are so much more that there is always a huge arrow drop and very often it's so far away you cant even shoot that far.

You're right that most bows could fire those distances with very little arrow drop, but you have a whole host of other reasons why it's hard to fire accurately at that distance in real life. Namely that there is no crosshair and people don't move at a snails pace

You are right, that should never be the only argument holding a change back. But are there reasons to do such an impactfull change?
I seet it as following:
A missile speed nerf is basically an accuracy nerf. Archers will hit less shots.
I also read before that nerfs to the accuracy are a nerf to the archers fun, which makes sense to me.
Now are archers that OP? Not really, maybe a bit overtuned. I think every archer will rather give away 5 armor points or miss on the glaive, even if it impacts the winrate the same.
I think the BL Archers a great success from a gameplay standpoint. Everyone can have fun with archers, even with little practise. In Warband I was utterly useless as archer but here I can hit quite some shots. But in DivA I still can't do **** as archer.

If the arrow still flies where it's intended, and you can reproduce the arrow drop and what-not, then it's hardly an accuracy nerf. It may affect the overall accuracy of a player, but as their skill grows they can accommodate for it.

Archers probably aren't OP in Skirmish mode (though there is a reason the tournaments have put restrictions on them) but I can almost guarantee that when and if a battle mode is implemented and if archers can be spammed, you'll see the true overpowered nature of them. I guess we just disagree on the issue because the way archers work now is the main thing that turns me off from playing MP.

Anyway, to conclude, I think it makes a lot more sense if different bows had different projectile speeds (and therefore drop) rather than a difference in speed for nocking the arrows, just like it would work in real life.

 

[Horatius]

Isnt that straigh up wrong? Can someone confirm?

Forgot to put iirc but I still play Warband from time to time and it definitely feels like the arrows are faster there.

That wouldn't be RNG at all my man

But but, a prediction is always a prediction so chance based, the less accurate the prediciton possibly can be the more luck is involved thus RNG.

 

[Moton]

You're right that most bows could fire those distances with very little arrow drop, but you have a whole host of other reasons why it's hard to fire accurately at that distance in real life. Namely that there is no crosshair and people don't move at a snails pace

Sure but in real life archers was usually people that had that as a profession, training every day with no change in the way arrows or the same bow behave

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

You are right, that should never be the only argument holding a change back. But are there reasons to do such an impactfull change?
I seet it as following:
A missile speed nerf is basically an accuracy nerf. Archers will hit less shots.
I also read before that nerfs to the accuracy are a nerf to the archers fun, which makes sense to me.
Now are archers that OP? Not really, maybe a bit overtuned. I think every archer will rather give away 5 armor points or miss on the glaive, even if it impacts the winrate the same.
I think the BL Archers a great success from a gameplay standpoint. Everyone can have fun with archers, even with little practise. In Warband I was utterly useless as archer but here I can hit quite some shots. But in DivA I still can't do **** as archer.

Sure, it's fine to think of things from a balance and fun perspective. Personally, as a comp archer from Warband, I find the Bannerlord hitboxes a little too forgiving (not sure if it's the projectile or target that is bigger, but shots that feel like they should miss land more often).

I also feel like the "nocked arrow" system gets archers out of trouble too easily, if you shoot an enemy archer, you should be able to follow up with another shot, thus forcing them to go into cover, get a shield out, or dodge, but currently they keep their arrow nocked while you reload, meaning they can shoot first.

 

[Mushbeast]

Forgot to put iirc but I still play Warband from time to time and it definitely feels like the arrows are faster there.


But but, a prediction is always a prediction so chance based, the less accurate the prediciton possibly can be the more luck is involved thus RNG.

Well by that logic the entire combat system is RNG based dude

I don't think that's a real issue at all.

Sure but in real life archers was usually people that had that as a profession, training every day with no change in the way arrows or the same bow behave

That is the point dawg! Different bows have different strengths, therefore arrow speed and distance. I don't think we should artificially account for the skill of the player just because his 'character' could have been an elite bowman.

Besides, even the most skilled archers still have a rough time hitting a target at distance, let alone a moving one.

 

[Aprikosenmann]

Sure, it's fine to think of things from a balance and fun perspective. Personally, as a comp archer from Warband, I find the Bannerlord hitboxes a little too forgiving (not sure if it's the projectile or target that is bigger, but shots that feel like they should miss land more often).

I also feel like the "nocked arrow" system gets archers out of trouble too easily, if you shoot an enemy archer, you should be able to follow up with another shot, thus forcing them to go into cover, get a shield out, or dodge, but currently they keep their arrow nocked while you reload, meaning they can shoot first.

BL Archers are Warband Archers on crack. But Cav and Inf are also on crack

 

[Moton]

That is the point dawg! Different bows have different strengths, therefore arrow speed and distance. I don't think we should artificially account for the skill of the player just because his 'character' could have been an elite bowman.

Besides, even the most skilled archers still have a rough time hitting a target at distance, let alone a moving one.

Yes ofcourse the bows should work different, that's what's coming in the next patch

 

[Mushbeast]

Yes ofcourse the bows should work different, that's what's coming in the next patch

It'll change the draw speed and accuracy timing, not the projectile speed or effective distance as far as I know. Doesn't sound bad though, but I just thought it'd make a lot more sense for it to affect the latter.

 

[hoonii]

bruh archery is still much easier compared to warband imo, its difficulty needs to be tuned up.

 

[Horatius]

Well by that logic the entire combat system is RNG based dude

If the reticle is on the target and the travel time is 0ms and the target can move at 5m/s then the target will always be hit
If the reticle is on the target and the travel time is 100ms and the target can move at 5m/s then the target is in a range of 1m.
If the reticle is on the target and the travel time is 1000ms and the target can move at 5m/s then the target is in a range of 10m.
Thus can be concluded that the chance of hitting a target is higher when the travel time is lower, as RNG is a synonym for the chance in a game you can conclude that the RNG factor will increase if the travel time of the projectile increases.


So are you just ignorant or is something else wrong?

 

[Aprikosenmann]

bruh archery is still much easier compared to warband imo, its difficulty needs to be tuned up.

why is archery not allowed to be much easier compared to warband?

 

[hoonii]

why is archery not allowed to be much easier compared to warband?

if it's so easy to do and everyone can master it so quickly then what's the meaning left of a special class? just put the crosshair on top of the guys head and left click and profit.
u lot would prefer warband over bannerlord now you're opposing it?
increase the arrow drop and bow drawing times

 

[soul_jak]

Thats like inversing block directions...it ****s you up completely...

Definitely not lmao

 

[NIN3]

I mean we are obviously not gonna make changes to achery, until the 1.5.5 changes have settled in and we get a better understanding on what it did to archers.

Bows will behave quite differently from each other with the new accuracy timings and I dont see any reason for reducing missile speed at the moment. Especially since this would have unforseen consequences to singleplayer and captain mode.

I am of course not saying that 1.5.5 will magically make archery the perfect thing, but lets not turn to many screws at the same time.

 

[Mushbeast]

If the reticle is on the target and the travel time is 0ms and the target can move at 5m/s then the target will always be hit
If the reticle is on the target and the travel time is 100ms and the target can move at 5m/s then the target is in a range of 1m.
If the reticle is on the target and the travel time is 1000ms and the target can move at 5m/s then the target is in a range of 10m.
Thus can be concluded that the chance of hitting a target is higher when the travel time is lower, as RNG is a synonym for the chance in a game you can conclude that the RNG factor will increase if the travel time of the projectile increases.


So are you just ignorant or is something else wrong?

I don't think you understand what RNG is and when it becomes a problem... Once again, if the arrow is fired at a certain spot and the arrow drop can be reliably reproduced, then it's not RNG. I get that you're saying there's a chance that the target could stop moving, or switch direction, but that's just how it is and it is the risk you run trying to take long distant shots.

Your argument makes no sense mate.

 

[hoonii]

Especially since this would have unforseen consequences to singleplayer and captain mode.

Yet another perfect reason to separate mode balances

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

BL Archers are Warband Archers on crack. But Cav and Inf are also on crack

Agree, and if everything is broken then everything is balanced to some degree, but not sure that is necessarily fun. Often that can just mean all classes are frustrated.

 

[Forsee]

That wouldn't be RNG at all my man, it's simply something you must account for if you're trying to hit a distant target.

Now you can just manually dodge an arrow flying from the far distance making a single step away from the arrow line of flight, so with arrow slowing it won't be rng, it would be just impossible to hit the target on the far distance who's aware of you. If the target moves linearly (not excluding standing still), you can always hit it with any arrow flight speed.

What about the barrier to entry for shooting, of course it's easy to hit the standing target from any distance, but it needs a lot of practice to master it, just like on any other class. Newbie will never shoot the player, who's trying to dodge an arrow, will never shoot the rider's head, will never shoot through the shield in the legs, will teamhit alot in inf fights and won't be able to outshoot any experienced player.

I disagree with the point that increasing\decreasing arrow flight speed will lead to necessity of retraining for all experienced archers, cause if you are familiar with arrow physix, it won't take alot to get used to new conditions, right now on different classes you have slightly different arrow speed and different aim correction, and usually you are not thinking like hmm, im playing fiann with a long bow now so I should aim 10cm higher, you just make a few shots and quickly realise what's your bow parameters