"Arrow deflection" for two-handers in 1.4.1e

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xdj1nn

Knight
WBWF&S
I already posted some videos about it, i agree with people who say it is not useful against a lot of archers, but some cases it can be, and as long it is something you cannot do that easily once they make the perk working i am fine with it.
Not even chamber blocks are as easy as they've used to in WB, I believe this one is a given (deflecting arrows being hard)
I'm not only okay with it as I find it essential, it's good for when you are 1v1 against an archer in siege, for instance, helps you to close-in without being punished, without the perk we can still do it, but it's more weird, you must zig-zag the guy as if you had nothing on your hands. Meta-wise if it's hard, it'll change absolutely nothing, and "reaslim" wise, it's also realistic, so yeah, this massive tantrum from randoms here is just annoying, but normal too. This debate already happened years ago when the perk was first "announced/shown", it won't be removed, and if needed it will get nerfed.
 
No, it´s not realistic!

Yes, it can be done in an experiment. But real battles were different.

You wouldn´t know from which direction/angle the arrow will come.
You wouldn´t know when the arrow will come.
You wouldn´t know how many arrows will come at the same time.

Even Skallagrim (his video was posted here a few times) said himself: That it´s way easier to dodge the arrow than trying to deflect it. Also they counted down to zero so he knew when the arrow would come. And of course this was not a fully drawn longbow...

And if you claim that this is realistic then I want a perk where I can jump in the sky, catch a flying arrow and fire it back before I land again on the floor, I mean it´s shown in a YouTube video, so this is a valid and realistic tactic isn´t it?
 

Yangbang

Sergeant
WBWF&SVC
And if you claim that this is realistic then I want a perk where I can jump in the sky, catch a flying arrow and fire it back before I land again on the floor, I mean it´s shown in a YouTube video, so this is a valid and realistic tactic isn´t it?
"I saw/read it on the internet so it must be true" lol some people say the darnest things here. Someone should post the video of the samurai who cut a bullet in two. Since it's "experimentally possible" why didn't all those 17 century samurai cut bullets and win wars against muskets like that? Must've been weebs.
 

Яowan

Grandmaster Knight
M&BWBNW
Using a two-handed sword in a real battlefield isn't realistic. Cleaving through multiple enemies is incredibly unrealistic. Doing this without getting completely exhausted in the process isn't realistic. Occasional arrow deflection certainly also isn't realistic, but it is hardly the biggest problem to 'realism' here.

Fortunately two-handed sword based troops are objectively the weakest outside of limited circumstances (such as siege defence). And that is with 'unrealistic' features such as cleaving and deflection. As with real life, a single-handed weapon and shield is king. Running into a fight with a two-handed sword, axe or hammer is suicide - just like in real life. These fantasy features make them a little viable, to a limited degree, but without them then there would be zero fun in playing with (non-polearm) two-handed weapons. Indeed, they may as well just remove (non-polearm) two-handed weapons if they aren't going to come up with a way, even if stretching reality, to make them viable.

Oh. And realism doesn't equal fun.
 
Oh no... I hate fantasy stuff like this. I would prefer everything to be kept as realistic as possible. It is cool ability and i would enjoy using it... but i don't want it in base game. Keep it in code for DLCs or mods, they will appreciate it. But not for base game.
 

Yangbang

Sergeant
WBWF&SVC
Oh no... I hate fantasy stuff like this. I would prefer everything to be kept as realistic as possible. It is cool ability and i would enjoy using it... but i don't want it in base game. Keep it in code for DLCs or mods, they will appreciate it. But not for base game.
agreed, blocking arrows with a sword is very along the lines of a mod for this game, not base game
 
I start with the skills and agility of some old man that died but doesn't now it yet. After 100 battles and slaying 1000 men (very realistic) I run so fast and fight so fast, that it seems like I have become younger and all my wounds from the 100 battles have healed and made me stronger. (most realistic).
BUT deflecting and arrow oh no that is to much.

My Kingdom for a Dragon! 😂
 

Mastigos

Recruit
Using a two-handed sword in a real battlefield isn't realistic. Cleaving through multiple enemies is incredibly unrealistic. Doing this without getting completely exhausted in the process isn't realistic. Occasional arrow deflection certainly also isn't realistic, but it is hardly the biggest problem to 'realism' here.

Fortunately two-handed sword based troops are objectively the weakest outside of limited circumstances (such as siege defence). And that is with 'unrealistic' features such as cleaving and deflection. As with real life, a single-handed weapon and shield is king. Running into a fight with a two-handed sword, axe or hammer is suicide - just like in real life. These fantasy features make them a little viable, to a limited degree, but without them then there would be zero fun in playing with (non-polearm) two-handed weapons. Indeed, they may as well just remove (non-polearm) two-handed weapons if they aren't going to come up with a way, even if stretching reality, to make them viable.

Oh. And realism doesn't equal fun.

And here we have the curious case of the Medieval Armchair Weaponmaster, who seems to have a deep and refined understanding of weaponry and the history of warfare.

Instead of internet lads, take for example George Silver (google him), an actual Medieval weapons instructor with some degree of clout, who literally ranks weapons according to overall usefulness. (http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.11319.html)

As you can see, in actual battle scenarios, the 2h sword and 2h axe are included in the list of legit weapons. He also states that 1h weapon + buckler (sword and board) gets dominated by the heavier 2h axe and 2h sword.

What's more, I think Musashi definitively proved that with enough skill, the use of two swords/sword and shortshort is an extremely potent 1v1 setup. Considering he fought every kind of weaponmaster and never lost a duel, nor felt that switching weapons would benefit him.

What needs to be understood,both in-game and IRL, is that swords in general have a high skill cap, and require more baseline skill, than say a spear or axe. I know some people out there don't like hearing that, but the truth is that swords can perform a variety of thrusts/blows and has a number of defensive options that certain other weapons cannot do. They're a balanced weapon, and best used when one can exploit all they have to offer to the fullest.
 

Yangbang

Sergeant
WBWF&SVC
And here we have the curious case of the Medieval Armchair Weaponmaster, who seems to have a deep and refined understanding of weaponry and the history of warfare.

Instead of internet lads, take for example George Silver (google him), an actual Medieval weapons instructor with some degree of clout, who literally ranks weapons according to overall usefulness. (http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.11319.html)

As you can see, in actual battle scenarios, the 2h sword and 2h axe are included in the list of legit weapons. He also states that 1h weapon + buckler (sword and board) gets dominated by the heavier 2h axe and 2h sword.

What's more, I think Musashi definitively proved that with enough skill, the use of two swords/sword and shortshort is an extremely potent 1v1 setup. Considering he fought every kind of weaponmaster and never lost a duel, nor felt that switching weapons would benefit him.

What needs to be understood,both in-game and IRL, is that swords in general have a high skill cap, and require more baseline skill, than say a spear or axe. I know some people out there don't like hearing that, but the truth is that swords can perform a variety of thrusts/blows and has a number of defensive options that certain other weapons cannot do. They're a balanced weapon, and best used when one can exploit all they have to offer to the fullest.
So yes or no to arrow blocking with a sword?
 
In many cultures and ages we can see twohanded elite units (especially before time of heavy shock cavalry who replace them kind of though for example landsknects using zweihanders were until "recently" still used) because sword and shield or spear and shield were just common canon fodder ofc there was no canon yet:smile: serving as anvil while those elites were hammer (spears were much cheaper to swords). There are some depictions (for example Varangiand guard) that they were used for frontal charge but they had support behind them ofc no unit was invincible alone.
 
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Evrieleth

Regular
Why so much noise for a perk? If you don't like the perk, just don't pick it, the AI will never be able to use that perk anyways so people ranting about this will eventually forget its existance. Moreover, to people complaining about it being unrealistic, which is not (luck is a factor in life), i wanted to point out that we have weapons magically glued to our backs, arrows penetrating plates, swords cutting through mail and scabbards on our backs (luck can't help in these cases). So before removing a perk in the sake of realism we should think about getting the other things addressed too, because if i get lucky i can deflect an arrow with a sword, but i will never be able to draw a sword from a back scabbard in real life :wink:
 

Irønfoot

Recruit
Wait a second, does this perk really exist in the native? I want wizards that spit rainbows then.
 
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Яowan

Grandmaster Knight
M&BWBNW
And here we have the curious case of the Medieval Armchair Weaponmaster, who seems to have a deep and refined understanding of weaponry and the history of warfare.

Instead of internet lads, take for example George Silver (google him), an actual Medieval weapons instructor with some degree of clout, who literally ranks weapons according to overall usefulness. (http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.11319.html)

As you can see, in actual battle scenarios, the 2h sword and 2h axe are included in the list of legit weapons. He also states that 1h weapon + buckler (sword and board) gets dominated by the heavier 2h axe and 2h sword.

What's more, I think Musashi definitively proved that with enough skill, the use of two swords/sword and shortshort is an extremely potent 1v1 setup. Considering he fought every kind of weaponmaster and never lost a duel, nor felt that switching weapons would benefit him.

What needs to be understood,both in-game and IRL, is that swords in general have a high skill cap, and require more baseline skill, than say a spear or axe. I know some people out there don't like hearing that, but the truth is that swords can perform a variety of thrusts/blows and has a number of defensive options that certain other weapons cannot do. They're a balanced weapon, and best used when one can exploit all they have to offer to the fullest.

Mkay, no need for the high horse act. Attacking people over a passing statement that was said in brief (without any significant detail, mind) is not a good method of proper discourse, and discourages me from engaging with you on this topic (and it was an unusual cling to only a single point! disregarding the actual topic at hand).

There is reasoning for my statement, and had you asked me to divulge I would've been happy to elaborate & cite sources for my reasoning, at least in regards to the early middle ages. At the same time I would have also been more than eager to read anything you might provide, especially that which contradicts my current understanding.

I will state this last tidbit, and shan't engage more with you on this point, but there is a significant difference between duels (1v1, or small group) and real-life combat on a battlefield (and indeed the type and availability of equipment also impacts the composition of troops and tactics deployed).
 

Bob Gnarly

Sergeant at Arms
It's a silly perk, you use shields to stop arrows not a sword.

I won't jump up & down if it's not overhauled when they redo perks, but it doesn't fit the game in my opinion. I initially figured it was just a placeholder.
 

Caps

Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
people complaining for days about the perk now, it will be so insignificant ingame that most probably wont even notice its there. The NPCs wont block ur arrows. The weapons arent forcefields like shields aswell, just look at how inconsistent chamber blocking is.

The arrow probably must exactly hit the sword in the block, its more of a miracle perk than anything else but we will see.

No, it´s not realistic!

Yes, it can be done in an experiment. But real battles were different.

You wouldn´t know from which direction/angle the arrow will come.
You wouldn´t know when the arrow will come.
You wouldn´t know how many arrows will come at the same time.

Even Skallagrim (his video was posted here a few times) said himself: That it´s way easier to dodge the arrow than trying to deflect it. Also they counted down to zero so he knew when the arrow would come. And of course this was not a fully drawn longbow...

And if you claim that this is realistic then I want a perk where I can jump in the sky, catch a flying arrow and fire it back before I land again on the floor, I mean it´s shown in a YouTube video, so this is a valid and realistic tactic isn´t it?
you dont know that in bannerlord either lol
 
Why so much noise for a perk? If you don't like the perk, just don't pick it.

Once more, this means that people who don't want to pick this perk have one less option to choose from. It's not a damage or block setting that we can change from the menu, it's part of your character progression.
 
Depends on how this perk works. If it is a simple hold down block I hate it. If you have to swing at the exact right milisecond and the sword have to physically hit the arrow in the air, I like it.
 

Mastigos

Recruit
Depends on how this perk works. If it is a simple hold down block I hate it. If you have to swing at the exact right milisecond and the sword have to physically hit the arrow in the air, I like it.

Dude, the perk literally says that the weapon can only block arrows when you switch block positions.

So like you're blocking left, and then you switch to blocking right. The time in-between the switch - as the weapon is moving from left block to right block - is the ONLY time that you can "block" arrows.

It's mostly skilled-based. Holding down block will do nothing.
 
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