Army AI is utterly broken, unplayably broken.

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Arconious

Recruit
WBVC
One of the things that's frustrated me as a player with the campaign AI is when two opposing armies are travelling past each other (within visual/scouting distance, by not passing within engagement range) and continue without much thought to the other, only later for one to turn around to defend once the other reached it's destination and started a siege.

I struggle with it because it feels wrong to watch two armies walk past each other, knowing the other is on it's way to kill/fight some of their own people. If one army is significantly weaker than the other, it makes sense it would choose not to engage, and indeed it could be seen as a tactic to siege a nearby settlement of the enemy to force their army to return and defend. In practice, I don't feel like the AI is doing it for that reason, and continues on a path toward city/settlement that they won't reach before the enemy reaches its target -- and so the army turns around all too late, when it feels like it should have known in advance (scouts, spies, etc. whatever to justify why our mouse cursor reveals intent).
 

PtitCon

Recruit
I don't know what y'all are talking about. I have 1.6.0 and a dozen mods and are having the time of my life.
 

Bannerman Man

C# Sleuth
Knight
Last time this subject came up I meant to mention something related to armies' food management, but never got around to it, so I'll post that comment here.

As far as starving armies goes, one thing I'd like to point out that I've noticed, is that after an army has gathered, they often don't enter a settlement before heading off toward their objective. This ends up being fairly important to the success of a siege because there is a difference in the amount of food supply a lord will try to maintain when they are in an army vs. not in an army.

If a lord is not in an army, then any time they enter a settlement that sells food, they will try to buy enough to maintain a 10 day supply. So this means most solo lord parties will be running around the map with roughly 9-10 days worth of food at any particular point in time. However, if a lord is part of an army, then any time they enter a settlement that sells food, they will instead try to buy enough to maintain a 15 day supply.

When an army is formed, it usually takes roughly 1-2 days for all of the lords to reach the rally point, and all of the lords will continue to consume food each day while waiting/travelling to the army, meaning by the time the army is ready to head off it might only have anywhere from 7-9 days worth of food left, since the lords only try to keep 10 days worth as individual parties.

An army that stops in a settlement before heading off to their objective will stock up on 15 days worth of food, giving them roughly an extra 6-8 days of food vs. an army that does not visit a settlement before moving to their objective. This also makes an army more resistant to the food draining effects of the multiple objective switches that will send them walking back and forth across the map that people have pointed out already.

So, all that said, it might be a good idea to introduce a one time only factor after an army forms that boosts the utility of stopping in the next town an army passes by for food, so that armies will more often start with about 15 days worth on an offensive campaign rather than 7-9. Since it's more important for defending armies to be quick rather than to be fully stocked on food, maybe that factor is only applied for offensive armies.

cmc01.png
 

Pejot

Sergeant Knight
WBVC
Last time this subject came up I meant to mention something related to armies' food management, but never got around to it, so I'll post that comment here.

As far as starving armies goes, one thing I'd like to point out that I've noticed, is that after an army has gathered, they often don't enter a settlement before heading off toward their objective. This ends up being fairly important to the success of a siege because there is a difference in the amount of food supply a lord will try to maintain when they are in an army vs. not in an army.

If a lord is not in an army, then any time they enter a settlement that sells food, they will try to buy enough to maintain a 10 day supply. So this means most solo lord parties will be running around the map with roughly 9-10 days worth of food at any particular point in time. However, if a lord is part of an army, then any time they enter a settlement that sells food, they will instead try to buy enough to maintain a 15 day supply.

When an army is formed, it usually takes roughly 1-2 days for all of the lords to reach the rally point, and all of the lords will continue to consume food each day while waiting/travelling to the army, meaning by the time the army is ready to head off it might only have anywhere from 7-9 days worth of food left, since the lords only try to keep 10 days worth as individual parties.

An army that stops in a settlement before heading off to their objective will stock up on 15 days worth of food, giving them roughly an extra 6-8 days of food vs. an army that does not visit a settlement before moving to their objective. This also makes an army more resistant to the food draining effects of the multiple objective switches that will send them walking back and forth across the map that people have pointed out already.

So, all that said, it might be a good idea to introduce a one time only factor after an army forms that boosts the utility of stopping in the next town an army passes by for food, so that armies will more often start with about 15 days worth on an offensive campaign rather than 7-9. Since it's more important for defending armies to be quick rather than to be fully stocked on food, maybe that factor is only applied for offensive armies.

cmc01.png

I can see one problem with that approach. Sometimes closest city doesn't have enough to supply the army for 15 days.
 
Probably its good I stop codding in last week especailly at these complex parts. Because if I do something wrong I will not be here to fix it. So time is up. In my last week I will try to prepare documents about AI & campaign codes to help collegues in future development. So no need to send savegames to me anymore.
Good luck in next job.
 

mexxico

Sergeant Knight
Last time this subject came up I meant to mention something related to armies' food management, but never got around to it, so I'll post that comment here.

As far as starving armies goes, one thing I'd like to point out that I've noticed, is that after an army has gathered, they often don't enter a settlement before heading off toward their objective. This ends up being fairly important to the success of a siege because there is a difference in the amount of food supply a lord will try to maintain when they are in an army vs. not in an army.

If a lord is not in an army, then any time they enter a settlement that sells food, they will try to buy enough to maintain a 10 day supply. So this means most solo lord parties will be running around the map with roughly 9-10 days worth of food at any particular point in time. However, if a lord is part of an army, then any time they enter a settlement that sells food, they will instead try to buy enough to maintain a 15 day supply.

When an army is formed, it usually takes roughly 1-2 days for all of the lords to reach the rally point, and all of the lords will continue to consume food each day while waiting/travelling to the army, meaning by the time the army is ready to head off it might only have anywhere from 7-9 days worth of food left, since the lords only try to keep 10 days worth as individual parties.

An army that stops in a settlement before heading off to their objective will stock up on 15 days worth of food, giving them roughly an extra 6-8 days of food vs. an army that does not visit a settlement before moving to their objective. This also makes an army more resistant to the food draining effects of the multiple objective switches that will send them walking back and forth across the map that people have pointed out already.

So, all that said, it might be a good idea to introduce a one time only factor after an army forms that boosts the utility of stopping in the next town an army passes by for food, so that armies will more often start with about 15 days worth on an offensive campaign rather than 7-9. Since it's more important for defending armies to be quick rather than to be fully stocked on food, maybe that factor is only applied for offensive armies.

cmc01.png

Yes this can increase army's life as you said but this will have negatives also. As you know when an army enters a town each party try to buy food and even with current 10 days rule they nearly buy most of town's food and some players complain about their town left with none or less food after one army enters it. Actually current design gives nearly nothing to town if an army buys food from there. Only 5% of paid money is added to tariff tax which is nearly nothing for owner.

Maybe before heading to objective, armies should enter nearby town one more time to buy food with current 10 days rule. This will need extra layer in army AI, short Term Behaviour should be set to visit settlement with a nearby target settlement before heading objective. Only for offensive ones, defender ones should be quick and no big food need for them.

By the way @Bannerman Man I suggested you to team several times previously. I do not know if you consider or not but if you consider probably you can take a freed seat in campaign team with your knowledge and control over code in future.
 
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Pejot

Sergeant Knight
WBVC
Yes this can increase army's life as you said but this will have negatives also. As you know when an army enters a town each party try to buy food and even with current 10 days rule they nearly buy most of town's food and some players complain about their town left with none or less food after one army enters it. Actually current design gives nearly nothing to town if an army buys food from there. Only 5% of paid money is added to tariff tax which is nearly nothing for owner.

Maybe before heading to objective, armies should enter nearby town one more time to buy food with current 10 days rule. This will need extra layer in army AI, short Term Behaviour should be set to visit settlement with a nearby target settlement before heading objective. Only for offensive ones, defender ones should be quick and no big food need for them.

By the way @Bannerman Man I suggested you to team several times previously. I do not know if you consider or not but if you consider probably you can take a freed seat in campaign team with your knowledge and control over code in future.

What if we reduce the food need based on hearths in owned villages. Something like 10 hearths can feed 1 unit. This will affect only lords owning villages (that are not raided) and will force everyone else to buy food normally.
And this will also simulate supply lines in a simple way that can be affected (raiding villages).
 
As you know when an army enters a town each party try to buy food and even with current 10 days rule they nearly buy most of town's food and some players complain about their town left with none or less food after one army enters it
Could the town not sell any food items when it's going to go too close to a food shortage? Basically not telepathically tell the AI it has food for sale when it's below a threshold? I know for experience that the AI "knows" where there is and isn't food and you can even use this to manipulate where they go and actively starve them out. In addition could the player directly fill the granary of thier owned towns instead of selling to the store?

I know people have talked a lot about supply lines and auxiliary parties and it's been kinda shot down, but I think it would go a long way for gameplay if the army could send a party to re-supply them with food. This could make an interesting gameplay for the player because if they destroy that party they could weaken the enemy army/siege effort. These types of things help the game feel like a game and not just numbers crunching into each other.
 

Askey

Veteran
What if, cities could build grain silos, to store food. Food is slowly taken out during a shortage. That way, Lords can come in with their armies and purchase all the food that they want. In all fairness, why would a city put all of its food on the market to be mass purchased in the first place? They should be preparing for potential sieges and the winter.
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
What if, cities could build grain silos, to store food. Food is slowly taken out during a shortage. That way, Lords can come in with their armies and purchase all the food that they want. In all fairness, why would a city put all of its food on the market to be mass purchased in the first place? They should be preparing for potential sieges and the winter.
Cities already have granaries.
 

Askey

Veteran
Cities already have granaries.
Then I don't understand how a city can starve, you would think if the granaries are been used then the city would have first dibs on any food coming into the city to fill the granaries back up.
 

Pejot

Sergeant Knight
WBVC
Then I don't understand how a city can starve, you would think if the granaries are been used then the city would have first dibs on any food coming into the city to fill the granaries back up.

Granaries are filled by food surpluss not directly by items that are on the market (they don't take for example grain straight to the granary but if there is a lot of grain the granary is gradually filled up). So if there's no surpluss granaries are used even if You have food items on the market and AI can still buy those items.

The problem is economy itself. If city is low on food nothing should show up on the market for people outside of the city.
 

Askey

Veteran
Granaries are filled by food surpluss not directly by items that are on the market (they don't take for example grain straight to the granary but if there is a lot of grain the granary is gradually filled up). So if there's no surpluss granaries are used even if You have food items on the market and AI can still buy those items.

The problem is economy itself. If city is low on food nothing should show up on the market for people outside of the city.
Fair enough, the problem is not that simple and neither is the solution. I have to many gaps in my knowledge in regards to it so I'll bow out of the discussion.
 
Give all Lords a Forage Perk or ability that can sustain a Warband and make the Perk increase with Clan tier.

The Forage bonus could be able to feed a minimum of say 10% of his Warband's cap size at tier 1 and say e.g. 50% at tier 5.

If the Lord got more troops but are running out of food, then he can boost the Perk but he will get negative reputation with nearby villages and in worst case eat pack animals and horses. In any case near the worst case situation the Lord needs to have clear instructions to find food and not keep wandering about with 50% of this troops.

This way even if the Lord runs out of food, he will only lose portion of his army strength until he can make it back to a town.

Second thing is perhaps to look if Calradia does have enough grain to make a good fun environment or it needs to be adjusted, so prolonged wars and raids do not destroy the fun to soon. It is okay to run out of food eventually but then everyone should seek to end wars and rebuild. AI does not suffer boredom from spending hours feeding everyone and every town.
 
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Bannerman Man

C# Sleuth
Knight
Yes this can increase army's life as you said but this will have negatives also. As you know when an army enters a town each party try to buy food and even with current 10 days rule they nearly buy most of town's food and some players complain about their town left with none or less food after one army enters it. Actually current design gives nearly nothing to town if an army buys food from there. Only 5% of paid money is added to tariff tax which is nearly nothing for owner.

Maybe before heading to objective, armies should enter nearby town one more time to buy food with current 10 days rule. This will need extra layer in army AI, short Term Behaviour should be set to visit settlement with a nearby target settlement before heading objective. Only for offensive ones, defender ones should be quick and no big food need for them.

By the way @Bannerman Man I suggested you to team several times previously. I do not know if you consider or not but if you consider probably you can take a freed seat in campaign team with your knowledge and control over code in future.
Yep, I know there would be drawbacks, I just wanted to throw out an idea that might help with the issue. I'm not suggesting to force them to visit a settlement or anything, but just adding a bigger nudge for armies to stop in a settlement for food one time on the way to or before heading towards their objective would boost their success rate, I think. Once they've visited a settlement, the factor would stop affecting their behavior, even if they didn't fully stock up on food. Extra conditions could be added to check if the town has enough food beforehand too, if necessary. Just a consideration.

(P.S. That's very kind of you to mention, mexxico :xf-smile:. I'm pretty happy with where I am for the time being though)
 
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