Armenian Genocide (?)

[Ser Jon]

Well if S O M E Armenians do think the way I believe they might, then yes. But that is not limited to Armenians, but involves all humans.

And some Turkish people think of Armenians as sub-human, as evident by the polls taken there regularly. Is your point that because some might think ill of you, you should mistreat them all for it? If so, then it justifies the Armenians hating all Turks...right?

Do I have to justify myself further?

No, because your argument doesn't justify your position whatsoever. It actually makes your stance worse.

Okay I guess if I watch an Armenian video I start speaking on their behalf.

???????????

Other Turks? Maybe. Me? No. Last time I checked, I hated their friends and was quite able to think for myself when it came to "enemies". Not that it might matter any longer at gunpoint.

Whose friends? Who do you hate? You are not making any sense.

It is good to know you know your position is not defendable.

Yes yes, I know. The Turkish stance on the Armenian genocide is the only thing being attacked here, I got the message.

Apparently it is a message you can't grasp.

Okay I believe I need to clarify this right now before this gets out of hand:
I am being sarcastic at some points, you might have noticed. Also when one says "all", it is very possible that one means "most". And with "to me it seems most" was not meaning "as good as 100%" but, as an approximate feeling, "70%".
I did not change my opinion. You just misunderstood, keep misunderstanding or pretend to misunderstand.

How the hell is that being sarcastic? Learn the definition of sarcasm before you try to hide behind it. And no, this did little to clarify your position other than having an asinine distrust and hatred of the Armenian people. You trying to justify it behind meaning 70% of Armenians instead of 100% being monstrous enemies again does little to make you look good.

This still makes you a bigot towards the Armenians and are hateful towards them.

"attempt to assume" is not quite fitting, is it? You, as everyone else is, could be a potential racist. What is so insane about that? If, lets say, 1/10 of Germans are racist and I see someone on the street and say to myself "That guy might be racist with a 1/10 potential" is not wrong or insane.

Your argument gets ****tier by the moment.

You, just being here, posting in this thread, puts you into a category in my head. If you are not anti-Turkish, great. That is a nice thing.

I don't care what you think of me. lol Someone who could defend or ignore the genocide of an entire people and hate them all for it is not someone I can ever respect nor care about. And the fact that you cannot distinguish yourself from the Turkish government/country that you see criticism of it and its genocides as being anti-Turkish speaks volumes.

Criminals killed innocent people, no doubt about that, that I can acknowledge.

The Ottoman Empire killed them, using their Special Operations and the military, and killed Turkish people who harbored the Armenians. That makes the Ottoman Empire the problem here, the "criminals".

But for the Armenian genocide? I do not see the evidence as much convincing. Whatever that means as a non-historian.

What evidence has convinced you it didn't happen? Can you at least, in all your lacking arguments, provide for that much? What has unreasonably set you on this opinion that decades worth of evidence cannot detach you from it?

"Why won't you admit" Well, I could acknowledge it, but I am not a criminal who is supposed to admit.
Why is it not enough for you when I would say that I am sorry that humans died during pointless conflict? It is not me who is making this personal.

You don't have to be personally responsible for the genocide to admit it happened? I'm not responsible for the Holocaust, but I can admit it happened. I'm not responsible for how the Native Americans were treated, but I can admit it. I'm not responsible for the Armenian genocide, but I can admit it. I'm not responsible for the Crusades, but I can admit they happened too.

And the problem is that you refuse to acknowledge that it was done because they were Armenians. It wasn't a few rogue Turkish killing a few thousand Armenians. It was the act of an entire government to eliminate an entire group of people for who they are. It was mass murder for who they were, because who they were was not considered people. That is why is important, because denial leads to people like you—who hate people you don't even know because someone else told you they are out to get you.

I do not need anyone to take me seriously.

I'm sure that's why you keep posting, hell bent on making us accept that the Armenians are monsters and they weren't victims of a genocide. Sure thing, buddy, you don't want people to take you seriously.

Yours too. We are beyond the point of this thread. So I guess we can go a bit further. Do you acknowledge that there has been a Turkish genocide too? If yes, well congratulations. That is great. If not, well then I will assume you have an agenda.

The point of this thread is the genocide of Armenians perpetuated by the Turkish country. So naturally discussion of it, its evidence, how the denial of such leads to problematic developments of a people and its country, and your view on it falls within relevance to the topic at hand.

I don't need to acknowledge another genocide to talk about this one. What part of this don't you grasp? This thread isn't about a Turkish genocide, this is about an Armenian genocide. One doesn't need the other to exist. If you want to talk about Turkish genocides, open up a thread about it and what's more, wait until someone pops in to ask you why you aren't talking about the Armenian genocide. Maybe then you will grasp why it holds no relevance here.

I only noticed after a certain point that your tone is just pure ****.
Every argument with or without evidence against the occurance of the Armenian genocide, I am pretty sure, probably has been exhausted in this thread.

My ****ty attitude of...pointing out the issues with your stance and your denial of the genocide? Yea, real ****ty of me. ?

And no, there is no evidence to disprove the genocide. Prove to us otherwise, if you won't, you are quite literally talking out of your ass.

Tell you what. If you were to acknowledge a Turkish genocide, I would go on to acknowledge the Armenian genocide. As in Armenians having killed Turks. Would be just between the two us tho, as I am not the Turkish government and you not the Armenian one.

Not how it works.

And governments don't decide what is or isn't a genocide. ?

 

[Zombie Warrior]

But having Ser Jon's ****ty attitude is not very nice anyhow.

Back when you were still called Lyceria, we tried to be nice, but you weren't and you haven't changed much. Your contempt for fellow forumites, your unjustified hatred for armenians, your insistent attempts to deflect by using red herrings and whataboutism make you at best unpleasant to discuss with... oh and also let's not forget that you casually dismiss any evidence from our side on the grounds that you don't like it and that it seems fake or propaganda to you and you have refused to provide any reliable evidence of your claims at all. You reap what you sow in a way.

I know you're going to roll your eyes at this because you think providing sources is beneath you. From experience, I can tell that you're just going to respond with another emoticon or gif and get on with your day as if nothing happened. The truth is that you can't prove anything you say and deep down you know that our sources are solid; you can't identify a single flaw in them that would weaken our stance.

By the way, Ser is far from having a ****ty attitude as far as I can tell.

Yes.

You are wrong on so many levels. The uygurs being sent to reeducation have it easy; they're terrorists bent on destroying China. They all hate the chinese. They even conducted mass murder. We're talking about organized criminals and rebels here, not innocent civilians. Sure, it's tragic that innocent civilians have been caught in the cross fire, but if china didn't retaliate, the uygurs would have massacred many more innocent chinese lives.

Not only that but it feels as if China is the whole world's boogeyman. The so called "genocide" is an excuse to make china look bad and promote the american agenda in order to reduce the political influence of the country. For some reason the whole world has brainwashed its population against the pure chinese nation simply because they hate china.

What the forum doesn't understand is that I'm not racist against uygurs, but that even though I'm obviously a white man, if I went to xinjiang and pretended to be chinese for one single second, I'd be beaten, gang raped and probably even murdered by an angry uygur mob. So I say, I'm perhaps a little bit justified to hate the uygurs for hating chinese and anyone who likes chinese culture like me.

Oh and can we address the rampant hypocrisy in the room. Everyone rants on about the so called genocide victims, the uygur terrorists, but no one cares that japan still refuses to recognize the rape of nanking, the immoral scientific experiments on chinese people during WWII nor even the fact that they forced chinese women to prostitute themselves to the army. If you want to go on political rants and discuss something that didn't happen, perhaps we should first start talking about something that did happen first. I'm waiting.

edit:
I don't think that at all. I'm just recycling the anti armenian arguments to expose how illogical they are.

 

[Ser Jon]

I don't think it is any fairer denying the Uyghur genocides, either. I know many Chinese and many Uyghurs, and not a one of them hate each other or wish ill on the other, especially just because of who they are. I think China largely controls what others see, just like any country, so what you see from their perspective is that the Uyghurs are all terrorists or show you a few instances in which they actually are, and thus use it to justify treating them wrong (sterilization, centration camps, mass murder, starvation, imprisonment etc). It is unfortunate that the U.S government is using it as a tool against China for personal benefits and didn't speak a word of it when it was happening in 1980s, but I don't think the obvious propaganda of the U.S and the Chinese government should retract from what they are actually doing, which is genocide.

What the forum doesn't understand is that I'm not racist against uygurs, but that even though I'm obviously a white man, if I went to xinjiang and pretended to be chinese for one single second, I'd be beaten, gang raped and probably even murdered by an angry uygur mob. So I say, I'm perhaps a little bit justified to hate the uygurs for hating chinese and anyone who likes chinese culture like me.

I have white friends who go to China all of the time, and they are not targeted at all. They speak Chinese very well and the worst that happens is that a Chinese person tries to speak to them in English. I know Uyghurs too, though not as closely as I do some Chinese people or people who visited China, and I have never seen that attitude from them. From where does this originate, this disdain of the Uyghurs? For every reason you can think of, the Uyghurs can think of the same about the Chinese. Where does it end? Why do the actions of the few overweigh the population's worth? I ask this of you for the Uyghurs and I ask this of those denying the Armenian genocide.

Presumptions of a group of people is always the direct result of country propaganda and can be broken with education and interaction.

So it [this feeling of yours and the genocide] is no different than Turkey with the Armenians, whom have practiced in genocides multiple times, and refuse to acknowledge it because it thinks doing so may weaken them or make their political standings less than in the eyes of the world around them. But while they do so, that denial, they instill in their public a sense of anger and fear against Armenians. So while they are not out there still hunting them down, they do no justice to quell hatred that makes others hurt them by denying it.

 

[Nega-Brutus]

If you want to change someone's perspective effectively, you should strive to have them arrive at certain conclusions themselves.
I don't appreciate your post, @Zombie Warrior. The reason I asked about the Uyghurs was because I was hoping that it would provoke more critical thought on the topic of genocide, but I can't continue anymore because you've probably made him angry with that post, hence he will just be a contrarian and continue doing mental gymnastics instead of engaging carefully and critically.

 

[Zombie Warrior]

@Ser Jon
I hope princess gets the point. It felt horrible writing those things, I can't imagine how people can write such hateful things with a straight face. Definitely not trying again. It makes me disgusted with myself.

@Nega-Brutus
Princess is a lost cause who has some long history with the topic. They will not come around. But I admit it was too far even for me. I apologize for possibly hampering your efforts. I will not do that again. By the way, I'm happy to see that you've changed tactics; your antics against Antoine on another thread left me quite upset.

 

[Ser Jon]

@Ser Jon
I hope princess gets the point. It felt horrible writing those things, I can't imagine how people can write such hateful things with a straight face. Definitely not trying again. It makes me disgusted with myself.

Oh, I see what you were doing. It seems so painfully clear what you were doing now that I re-read it. My apologies!

 

[Gnjus]

Let us all be friends.

 

[RozBritanicus]

Learning a lot here . Very interesting .

 

[Vermillion_Hawk]

I just want to point out, I work in the history department of a reputable university and there was an actual discussion on whether or not the university should be teaching about the Armenian Genocide, not because there was any doubt about its authenticity, but because international students exclusively from Turkey have apparently, in the past (before my tenure), raised a fuss about it.

Fortunately, logic prevailed and the university will not be catering to the sensibilities of Erdogan's propaganda machine. Credit to one professor who's an Ottoman specialist and married to a Turkish ex-pat for arguing strongly in favour of teaching about the genocide, primarily because, again, it's very important that people learn about such things so as not to repeat them, if for no other reason.

 

[eddiemccandless]

As someone who also works in academia (although not in history) I find the fact that that was even in question extremely cringe worthy ?.

 

[Nega-Brutus]

?

 

[Ser Jon]

I just want to point out, I work in the history department of a reputable university and there was an actual discussion on whether or not the university should be teaching about the Armenian Genocide, not because there was any doubt about its authenticity, but because international students exclusively from Turkey have apparently, in the past (before my tenure), raised a fuss about it.

Fortunately, logic prevailed and the university will not be catering to the sensibilities of Erdogan's propaganda machine. Credit to one professor who's an Ottoman specialist and married to a Turkish ex-pat for arguing strongly in favour of teaching about the genocide, primarily because, again, it's very important that people learn about such things so as not to repeat them, if for no other reason.

I would be interested in hearing more, if you do not mind, about what you might think about it all and if you would be willing to share what convinced them not to cater to said people. It might be beneficial here, too.

 

[Sanel]

Meh meh mehhhhh clearly it wasnt a genocide so there is no need to state the obvious and if you guys(?) are really good person lets talk about refugees of the Syrian Civil War or u.s/european countries-pkk pyd relationship.Basically child murder isis and pkk-pyd they re same (maybe even worse) thing as you know ??

 

[Nega-Brutus]

 

[Ser Jon]

Meh meh mehhhhh clearly it wasnt a genocide so there is no need to state the obvious and if you guys(?) are really good person lets talk about refugees of the Syrian Civil War or u.s/european countries-pkk pyd relationship.Basically child murder isis and pkk-pyd they re same (maybe even worse) thing as you know ??

I know you won't be able to answer it as the many before you could not...care to explain why there wasn't a genocide?

 

[Mad Vader]

I know you won't be able to answer it as the many before you could not...care to explain why there wasn't a genocide?

Is it worth asking if you know you won't receive even a coherent answer? You don't have to fight every comer give everyone a chance to explain themselves.

 

[Ser Jon]

Is it worth asking if you know you won't receive even a coherent answer? You don't have to fight every comer give everyone a chance to explain themselves.

If he's got an answer then he would have explained it there I think, but you're right, I should be more patient. It's a little frustrating sometimes, is all. I'll wait and see.

 

[Mad Vader]

If he's got an answer then he would have explained it there I think, but you're right, I should be more patient. It's a little frustrating sometimes, is all. I'll wait and see.

I meant in a different way, some people are not equipped for a basic debate and there's no need to engage them in a non-humorous way. But you do your own thing, it was just a question.

 

[Sanel]

I know you won't be able to answer it as the many before you could not...care to explain why there wasn't a genocide?

I dont want, you can take me wrong or dont as you wish but to be honest literally waste of time.You can read sum *reliable,credible* sources.

 

[Ser Jon]

I dont want, you can take me wrong or dont as you wish but to be honest literally waste of time.You can read sum *reliable,credible* sources.

Even now you post to say there are reliable, credible sources to prove it didn't happen but you won't even share those. Almost as if they don't exist, huh?

So, I ask, why do you even post? That seems more of a waste of time than proving you aren't wrong, but sure.