Armenian Genocide (?)
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What evidence do you have that you did not kill Armenians?
... the absence of the evidence of having killed Armenians?
Who is to say that what evidence is forged?
Who is to say what historian is to be trusted?
Why do Armenians and others need Turkey to accept that a genocide against Armenians occured? - If it won't help or change anything anyway...how better or more important could it be than asking your neighbour if they accept that a genocide against Armenians occured?
Before you start saying whataboutism, I do believe there is an obvious connection here:
Let us assume it happened. Armenians got massacred systematically by Turks, be it Turkish government or a significant civil and/or military portion.
Turkey could of course aknowledge that this happened... why not do that?
It is simple really. The Balkan countries would need to come forward with their extermination of Turkish populations and have it officially called genocide of Turks. The Cyprus dispute would need to be called the same way. Russia would have to aknowledge that they committed genocides againt Turkic population in their borders.
But today, there is not a single genocide of Turks to be found anywhere. Well it is hard to believe the population just went on their way on their own.
So, perhaps try to start with your governments accepting European misdeeds. Turkey then might come forward and there could be a mutual decleration of genocide of everyone everywhere at the same time.
... While one can dream... as long as Europeans act in bad faith themselves and think they can shove Turkey, this "dispute" will not be solved, even if Armenians did systematically suffer atrocious crimes, the government will never aknowledge this. Turkey would need to be at the same position as Armenia then: being able to ask for reperations and what not, but not do it because it has actually nothing to do with todays nations... more or less.
And I am not a historian who had access to either legitimate or forged archive entries. I do not know the truth. While your faith in your historians and grandparent's stories seems unshakeable tho, which is odd.
TLDR
If Europe would come forward with genocide against the Turks, instead of labeling it "intercommunal violence between Turks and XYZ Balkan/Russian state", perhaps Turkey would too, instead of labeling it "intercommunal violence and emergency transportation/evacuation of Armenians during wartime", right? Check your sources - if you did, pressure rather your government instead of Turks lol.
... the absence of the evidence of having killed Armenians?
Who is to say that what evidence is forged?
Who is to say what historian is to be trusted?
Why do Armenians and others need Turkey to accept that a genocide against Armenians occured? - If it won't help or change anything anyway...how better or more important could it be than asking your neighbour if they accept that a genocide against Armenians occured?
Before you start saying whataboutism, I do believe there is an obvious connection here:
Let us assume it happened. Armenians got massacred systematically by Turks, be it Turkish government or a significant civil and/or military portion.
Turkey could of course aknowledge that this happened... why not do that?
It is simple really. The Balkan countries would need to come forward with their extermination of Turkish populations and have it officially called genocide of Turks. The Cyprus dispute would need to be called the same way. Russia would have to aknowledge that they committed genocides againt Turkic population in their borders.
But today, there is not a single genocide of Turks to be found anywhere. Well it is hard to believe the population just went on their way on their own.
So, perhaps try to start with your governments accepting European misdeeds. Turkey then might come forward and there could be a mutual decleration of genocide of everyone everywhere at the same time.
... While one can dream... as long as Europeans act in bad faith themselves and think they can shove Turkey, this "dispute" will not be solved, even if Armenians did systematically suffer atrocious crimes, the government will never aknowledge this. Turkey would need to be at the same position as Armenia then: being able to ask for reperations and what not, but not do it because it has actually nothing to do with todays nations... more or less.
And I am not a historian who had access to either legitimate or forged archive entries. I do not know the truth. While your faith in your historians and grandparent's stories seems unshakeable tho, which is odd.
TLDR
If Europe would come forward with genocide against the Turks, instead of labeling it "intercommunal violence between Turks and XYZ Balkan/Russian state", perhaps Turkey would too, instead of labeling it "intercommunal violence and emergency transportation/evacuation of Armenians during wartime", right? Check your sources - if you did, pressure rather your government instead of Turks lol.
So you're admitting the Armenian genocide happened but you want to pretend that it didn't until every other national grievance against the Ottoman Empire is settled? What the hell kind of an attitude is that?
Nega-Brutus
Last time I checked, Europeans acknowledge their genocides. They do it so hard even, a quarter of the population develops insecurities.
Why get them to admit it happened? Maybe so they don't, you know, try it again? When you have an entire country power that refuses to acknowledge something as cruel as a genocide of another people, it only breeds the emotion that caused that genocide in the first place. It is called being educated. When you know history and remember its horrors, you are far less likely to repeat it, or allow someone else to.
So because it happened to the Ottoman Empire and you think the world doesn't care about Turks dying, who cares about Armenians being systematically executed by Turkey and their refusal to even admit they did it? This is so bat****. ?
So because it happened to the Ottoman Empire and you think the world doesn't care about Turks dying, who cares about Armenians being systematically executed by Turkey and their refusal to even admit they did it? This is so bat****. ?
That's not really the case. There are varying opinions and even at the worst racist end of the spectrum there are people who think those people deserved because they rebelled against their "masters". Majority accepts that people died, so called denial caused by the discussion on numbers, intentions and definitions. So no, entire country does not think people did not die in such a period of chaos and unstability.
Pretty sure by "country power" he means the state itself and not everyone living there.
I said country power though, meaning the officials. Though when the officials are spouting it never happened, it will convince people it hasn't (cue some here).
Yes, that is what I meant, thank you. I probably should have used a different term, but I thought it was enough. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding guys.
It's true that state officials may not represent whole people in the country but even then there were not a government that accepted incident as genocide or it's less likely any will come into power in Turkey. It's not because talking about it is a taboo rather how the argument regarding the topic is so based on politics that officials won't ever call it as genocide as there is no gain for them but again the death of Armenians during 1915 is accepted by many whom got proper history education unless they are really want to ignore the topic for some weird nationalistic concern. So that argument still does not paint the picture clearly, they don't deny the fact that people died, they rather deny that it is a genocide.
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Well, you can't say it was genocide in Turkey because you will be prosecuted for offenses against Turkishness. There's no discussion at all because it's not allowed.
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My post specifically meant systematic execution of Armenians though, meaning the genocide. I don't doubt many doubters realize Armenians died, but the problem is that they do not believe it was genocide. And why do they think that way in the first place? It is because of Turkey itself, and its government. I think we can see that perfectly in that guy posting before, that lack of education on this point through the extensive meddling and work done by the Turkish government to conceal and convince their populace the best that they can it never happened the way the world recorded it. This is why education is key. If a country does not allow you to even discuss this as a genocide, when it was, how can anyone trust that anyone there receives a proper education in this regard when history is so easily manipulated for the benefit of the government, when it is oppressed?
The reason someone like dijiTurk exists is because that information is suppressed and rewritten to brain wash them. And the reason we find people like Princess Mikoto is directly because of AKP, whom revisited the genocide by calling it "the events of 1915" or "the starvation of migrants". In fact, they to do this day deny the genocide by emphasizing it towards some sort of shared suffering, which is exactly what Mikoto tried to do to justify Turkey's stance. And of all political parties in Turkey today, only 1 of them does not support denial. Only 1.
And top that with the fact that Erodgan came out to decry Biden's genocide message as groundless, deflecting to the Native Americans as if one genocide excuses another (though even then, by his logic, the NA genocide is not denied by the U.S and is taught in schools to this day)? Well, I think it is plenty fair to say that my argument stands. The power of controlled education and authoritarian control from a government can and has created people like that. We have seen it many times before and Turkey would be no different. Until it can be discussed openly within Turkey, nothing will change. Children will continue growing up learning altered history, hearing from their parents and their government that there was no genocide, and continue this cycle.
My brain washed?
I told you few times..
If you are not using a political key card on human rights.
&
If want to give rights back to all humans at history
&
If you want all to take lessons for making better futures together
then basicly go to universal/valuable(international?) court & identify if there is a genocide available.
You can identify it if you dont using a political approach, but universal/valuable one(international court that check all sides & reach the truth).
You can identify it if you want to give all people's rights back from all over the world, just go to court for it.
You can identify it if you want a better future for all(if court end up with the positive argument = "there is genocide" )
This is what i said and i dont think my brain washed. Turkish historicans & lawyers say quite good arguments from their side, then why dont you just go to court?
I definetly belive that there was many bad events for all people around that lands @war time. Just like in other bad war situations at world history. But, if you say firmly that there is genocide.. Then what a minute.. I hear many arguments that there was not a genocide from turkish historians & lawyers. Then what should everyone do? My brain(not turkish or armenian side, just my brain) says that go to court. Let the truth seen at the end of a valuable* court.
BONUS: I do not want to listen things as if they were final judgments from(uncertain) controversial arguments. All must go to a valuable court judgment & come with result first.. Then all can talk about truth and behave better for all.
So, i want to know the result in court. The precise language of the politicians only bothers me. Currently, (i think) only 1 party(hdp) said that there is certainly a genocide. But wait a minute? That's not what valuable court reached(that takes all arguments to reaches the result). I dont accept politics at an certain argument.
And, I found Erdogan's repond pretty good. However, now, Edogan & turkish historicans must go to court. Speaking for all's goodness is fine. But not enough. Turkey must go to court as well as Armanie. And, all arguments/documents must be considered to reach truth.
To sum, if you want see better world. Stop politic behaviors
&
Act for truth in court with aiming all & better future.
*valuable court: international/universal court that collects all arguments from all sides, and reaches result within humant rights & law.
I told you few times..
If you are not using a political key card on human rights.
&
If want to give rights back to all humans at history
&
If you want all to take lessons for making better futures together
then basicly go to universal/valuable(international?) court & identify if there is a genocide available.
You can identify it if you dont using a political approach, but universal/valuable one(international court that check all sides & reach the truth).
You can identify it if you want to give all people's rights back from all over the world, just go to court for it.
You can identify it if you want a better future for all(if court end up with the positive argument = "there is genocide" )
This is what i said and i dont think my brain washed. Turkish historicans & lawyers say quite good arguments from their side, then why dont you just go to court?
I definetly belive that there was many bad events for all people around that lands @war time. Just like in other bad war situations at world history. But, if you say firmly that there is genocide.. Then what a minute.. I hear many arguments that there was not a genocide from turkish historians & lawyers. Then what should everyone do? My brain(not turkish or armenian side, just my brain) says that go to court. Let the truth seen at the end of a valuable* court.
BONUS: I do not want to listen things as if they were final judgments from(uncertain) controversial arguments. All must go to a valuable court judgment & come with result first.. Then all can talk about truth and behave better for all.
So, i want to know the result in court. The precise language of the politicians only bothers me. Currently, (i think) only 1 party(hdp) said that there is certainly a genocide. But wait a minute? That's not what valuable court reached(that takes all arguments to reaches the result). I dont accept politics at an certain argument.
And, I found Erdogan's repond pretty good. However, now, Edogan & turkish historicans must go to court. Speaking for all's goodness is fine. But not enough. Turkey must go to court as well as Armanie. And, all arguments/documents must be considered to reach truth.
To sum, if you want see better world. Stop politic behaviors
&
Act for truth in court with aiming all & better future.
*valuable court: international/universal court that collects all arguments from all sides, and reaches result within humant rights & law.
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There is no true international court because no country is truly subject to any higher law. That being said, what you desire to happen in regards to this issue has basically already happened. The entire rest of the world has basically agreed that yes, genocidal activity took place. The only reason that there is still denial is because the Turkish state is a backwards tinpot dictatorship that trades in a particularly gross brand of ethnonationalism that cannot tolerate any potential slander against "Turkishness", but more importantly, can't deal with any potential blood on the hands of its precious founding father.
"I can't think for myself and some nebulous court should tell me what is real". Which court and who will make Turkey go there to be judged? Erdogan would never accept this, so you need to talk to him, or at least ask your parents why this won't work.
The most consistent Turkish move is an old proposal of a mixed Turkish-Armenian commission that would provide final answers. This is quite likely a bad faith move that can be used to dispute the genocide until the commission decides if there was a genocide - which is exactly why the Turks would stall forever. Armenians have nothing to gain from this and therefore refuse it. Would you form a commission of evolutionists and creationists to decide who is right?
The bad faith character is the same as the Israelis proposing talks with Palestinians with nothing to offer, while they steal their land.
The most consistent Turkish move is an old proposal of a mixed Turkish-Armenian commission that would provide final answers. This is quite likely a bad faith move that can be used to dispute the genocide until the commission decides if there was a genocide - which is exactly why the Turks would stall forever. Armenians have nothing to gain from this and therefore refuse it. Would you form a commission of evolutionists and creationists to decide who is right?
The bad faith character is the same as the Israelis proposing talks with Palestinians with nothing to offer, while they steal their land.
There is no international court and even if there were, they have already concluded Turkey is in the wrong. You know though it would never work, and Turkey—Erdogan especially—would never accept this. All of the evidence they have tried to destroy or hold back from the world would be brought to light in an embarrassing way for him.
And yes, you are. You deny all evidence and refuse the idea that one should consider it until some vague global power decides Turkey is wrong. When someone can look at pictures, articles, journalist reports etc and conclude it's not real until their wacko overlords tell them that it is real, that is called being brain washed.
I am in no position to admit or deny anything. I don't care about the Ottoman Empire. I care about the Turks that got killed and/or deported.
Nations which are in possession of former Turkic lands might want Turkey to submit, but that is simply not going to happen willingly. They would have to come forward themselves too.
From a national interest pov, there is only negatives for Turkey and nothing to gain or bargain with against any reperation claims etc.
If Armenia would want land, then Azerbaijan would want Armenia (as there were arguably more Azerbaijanis living in today's Armenia (https://preview.redd.it/7qdav545qzr...bp&s=e7be7dc6c42fdfb158bd76337d970d4a87b64cfe)...
and realistically, that won't happen without war. So declaring mutual genocide is as easy as a single penstroke, right? Wonder why it is not happening...
PS:
Imagine Armenia making an announcement "We are sorry that we killed Azerbaijanis and stole their lands. We condemn... blablabla... never genocide again"
and imagine Turkey THEN not admiting the "Armenian genocide". Even if it didn't happen, it would make Turkey's life even more difficult then it is now and arguably even have benefits for Turkey.
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Which are these "former Turkic lands"? Details please.
You speak as if the Turks were exiled from lands belonging to their fathers and now the same enemies want to humiliate them further. Do you believe that?
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I have a few questions that I think are important to ask here to discern your position more Mikoto.
1) What lands were the Turks expelled from exactly and why do you think that admitting to a genocide would somehow mean Armenians gets Turkish land? 2) why do you think that would be a bad thing to restore property to the Armenians, whom only lost it due to a genocide and a law that took their citizenship away? 3) why do you feel like the Armenians don't deserve justify because you think Turkish people are being expelled/victims of genocides? Shouldn't that make you more sympathetic to their plight, when your people apparently suffer the same way they did?
Also, acknowledgment of the genocide only acknowledges the systematic suffering of a people by a country's government because they were not Turkish. Admitting to it helps create an environment where it cannot be repeated. By refusing to admit what they did—which the entire world knows they did—it seems as if Turkey is saying it [the genocide] wasn't wrong of them and they don't have any intention of treating Armenians as if they exist and are human. Still. Through the massacre in Albania by the Ottoman Empire to the mass murder of Bulgarians in Batak by the Ottoman Empire, to even today where it continues its propaganda of "Non-Turks = enemy".
In fact, it is difficult to think of Turkey as a country that doesn't oppress people by race, origins and religion, when its history is rich in it, and when even today churches or any non-mosque must be granted permits by the government, when non-"real" Turks are mistreated or when the government fights tooth and nail to even reject efforts by the global community to enforce Turkey to protect its minority communities, such as Turkic-Christians. Then there is the fact that in 2005-6 the AKP refused to release Ottoman land registry because they said, and I quote, "would be against state interests". The full quote goes on to explain that it would be evidence to an alleged genocide and systematic mistreatment of the Armenians, and so must not be released:
It seems as if Turkey realizes the genocide was ultimately profitable to the Ottoman Empire, and Turkey today, as well as what it deems as "real citizens". Which I can only conclude as a danger, because what stops them from doing it again? When they can destroy evidence or hide it, or convince their people it never happened in the first place?
1) What lands were the Turks expelled from exactly and why do you think that admitting to a genocide would somehow mean Armenians gets Turkish land? 2) why do you think that would be a bad thing to restore property to the Armenians, whom only lost it due to a genocide and a law that took their citizenship away? 3) why do you feel like the Armenians don't deserve justify because you think Turkish people are being expelled/victims of genocides? Shouldn't that make you more sympathetic to their plight, when your people apparently suffer the same way they did?
Also, acknowledgment of the genocide only acknowledges the systematic suffering of a people by a country's government because they were not Turkish. Admitting to it helps create an environment where it cannot be repeated. By refusing to admit what they did—which the entire world knows they did—it seems as if Turkey is saying it [the genocide] wasn't wrong of them and they don't have any intention of treating Armenians as if they exist and are human. Still. Through the massacre in Albania by the Ottoman Empire to the mass murder of Bulgarians in Batak by the Ottoman Empire, to even today where it continues its propaganda of "Non-Turks = enemy".
In fact, it is difficult to think of Turkey as a country that doesn't oppress people by race, origins and religion, when its history is rich in it, and when even today churches or any non-mosque must be granted permits by the government, when non-"real" Turks are mistreated or when the government fights tooth and nail to even reject efforts by the global community to enforce Turkey to protect its minority communities, such as Turkic-Christians. Then there is the fact that in 2005-6 the AKP refused to release Ottoman land registry because they said, and I quote, "would be against state interests". The full quote goes on to explain that it would be evidence to an alleged genocide and systematic mistreatment of the Armenians, and so must not be released:
It seems as if Turkey realizes the genocide was ultimately profitable to the Ottoman Empire, and Turkey today, as well as what it deems as "real citizens". Which I can only conclude as a danger, because what stops them from doing it again? When they can destroy evidence or hide it, or convince their people it never happened in the first place?
I think you're going a bit too far here.
