Armenian Genocide (?)

[Almalexia]

Gone on hiatus as of 24/01/10 - Don't know when I'll be back.

Though she is at 666 posts, so presumably this Hiatus is some plane of Hell from which she shall lead forth an army of demonic pygmies or something.

I dunno why, but the last part of your post reminds me of The Mummy: 2. Well, whatever you intended, it made me chuckle.

 

[Redcoat-Mic]

Well its fun, the most logical/plausible explanation studied through the evidences is something that I find satisfying. I'm not out looking for absolute truths, as they are hard to get. And there is this terminology thing. Even though the object would stand right in front of us, one could argue about its color. One might think murder, other might think it was fair duel.

So in other words, for you, history is about as important and relevant to our world as, say, a game of Monopoly? 

Does this form of "logic" and your views on history also extend to other fields such as biology, geology, astronomy or physics?  Have you ever seen a great white shark, real and in the flesh.  Because if you haven't, it might not really exist.  Have you seen a real earthquake or volcano? Or held soil from the moon? Because if you haven't, they might not exist.  For that matter, have you personally ever seen your own liver?  This might sound a little stupid, but it's the continuation of your logic.  Retarded...

Cheers
Kvedulf

What on earth?

Why because History is never an absolute truth does that mean it's useless? History is just the written record of man, and every source has an author, and every author has opinions which means that every source is in someways bias, bar none. It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a completely unbiased source. It's all perspective and opinion, even if you try your hardest to keep it empirical.

Empirical Historian's died off decades ago after they realised, there is no such thing as absolute FACT in history.

And this is coming from a History degree student, I don't believe Allegro ever said History was useless because it isn't fact but you have to acknowledge it's just your interpretation of several other interpretations of events instead of absolute truth and dogma.


And on the topic, yes I do believe the Armenian Genocide happened and it's somewhat internationally embarrassing the Turks keep denying it, if they simply just apologised for it then no one besides the Armenian would remember it, no one would hold it against them as after all, none of the decision makers will be alive today and probably not many who even witnessed it.
No one remembers what we British did to the Boer's, nor cares.

 

[ealabor]

Alright guys everything is ok, i'm here in this thread now.

I gather someone said History was pointless, and yet another person suggested it is an "Art" ?
Well shame on you sirs!

On the matter of the topic at hand, the factual history of the "Genocide" is very much dictated by the politics of the day. There is not much to be said about it on the international level at the present time.

However, if for example Turkey were to take a radical stance on Islam like that of the administration in Iran, and they suddenly were denouncing values of "the West", and/or perhaps sponsoring actions against the West then I bet there might suddenly be a "Crisis of concern" on an internation level of awareness regarding the would be "holocaust of Armenia".

Of course this isn't anything new, and if people stay the course in their History subjects, then they would realize politics has manipulated history, and will continue to do so. Yet this "Art" will always be important because people will be able to peer such insights about the machinations of people/nations etc.

Yes, former History Uni student here.  Worth every penny.

 

[Archonsod]

No one remembers what we British did to the Boer's, nor cares.

But then in fairness the Boers didn't want a state out of nationalism or religious difference, but (to use their own words) because they wanted to wallop their own niggers. If the Jews had spent the first half of the twentieth century eating small children I doubt many people would remember or care about the holocaust today.

 

[ealabor]

But then in fairness the Boers didn't want a state out of nationalism or religious difference, but (to use their own words) because they wanted to wallop their own niggers.

wtf.. source?

 

[omzdog]

But then in fairness the Boers didn't want a state out of nationalism or religious difference, but (to use their own words) because they wanted to wallop their own niggers.

wtf.. source?

 

[Allegro]

But Germans are remembered and they are getting killed like zergs and being sweared at in every war movie. If Turks are gonna get the "genocidor" tag then the rest of the world should get one too. I dont see why purging Anatolia off Armenians should stand as a genocide amongst all the other things preparated by rest of the world. Especially while the supposed subjects today having like 3 times more the population of their pre "Genocide" one (I'm referring to only Armenians of Anatolian origin here as Armenians of Armenia saw no harm at all.)

Turks getting embarassed... It's interesting that it's still Turks getting embarassed in world's view despite fascistic bans in some western countries on one's presenting their disbeliefs regarding the event. There are no laws against declaring one's belief in Armenian Genocide in Turkey you know, unlike France and Switzerland. Countries like France making good use of every opportunity for being sissies like using their Eurovision point announcers to whine about Turkey's denial yet the shame goes to Turkey. Some Armenian photos get proven to be hoax or photoshopped yet they dont even lose the slightest credibility in the eyes of the world. Apaprently assassinating Turkish diplomats and terrorist bombings also dont seem to tarnish their reputations or hurt their case at all, it's just Turkey getting all the shame. They got ****ing passive aggro. Well screw this, there seems to be no running from embarassment for Turks anyway so we shall at least play as we like.

 

[Archonsod]

wtf.. source?

Taken from a 1904 edition of "The Age":

Stephen Johannus Paul Kruger, ex-President of the Transvaal republic, died yesterday at Mentone, in the south of France, whither he went last January from Holland, where he had been living in exile since 1900, to recuperate his health. Mr. Kruger was in the 79th  year of his age…
The life of Paul Kruger is practically the history of Dutch South Africa for the last half of the 19th century… at the age of ten years he participated with his parents in the "great trek" across the Orange, by which the Dutch Cape Colonists practically demonstrated their disgust at British emancipation of the black, and their determination to seek a country where every white man was "free to wallop his own ******."

 

[omzdog]

Does Nelson Mandela ring a bell?
South African apartheid rooted from the Dutch attitude in their colonies.

 

[Trooper5445]

Lets go kill over a million innocent civilians because it's WWI and no one cares. Totally not genocide. The war is genocide man, with all the capitalists fighting each other and stuff....yeahhhh. We all just need to get along... you know be peaceful and all.

Anyhow point being that it happened, there is pretty much documented proof that it did although considering the current straits of Turkey I think it would be unwise for anyone to bring it up. Last thing we need is Turkey feeling anti-western on us.

 

[Almalexia]

Yeah, I mean, I'd like a mainly Islamic country that doesn't hate us, you know?

 

[DameGreyWulf]

That's not a very healthy sentiment.

"I'm going to let you get away with things just because I want us to be cool."

That being said, they didn't get away with it, in a way, and it's far in the past, so there's not any reason to bring it up anyway. Unless I'm mistaken.
It's not like we keep going to Germany saying "So, about that Holocaust thing..."

 

[Trooper5445]

Yeah we just sort of occupied their country.

 

[Allegro]

Killing 1 million civilians is not necessarily genocide, if they have like 100 million population it would hardly affect their ability to pass their genes to the next generation. Although Armenians were just few millions, I would very much like to see the "solid proofs" that prove 1 and half a million of them were indeed killed. It's just a mere claim, funny how it kept rising and rising over time. It was just some thousands at first.

 

[Archonsod]

Anyhow point being that it happened, there is pretty much documented proof that it did

There isn't, that's the problem. Remember genocide =/= killing lots of people. Genocide is a rather specific act.

Although Armenians were just few millions, I would very much like to see the "solid proofs" that prove 1 and half a million of them were indeed killed. It's just a mere claim, funny how it kept rising and rising over time. It was just some thousands at first.

There isn't any. Assuming the Talet Pasha source is correct, I'd assume the figure more likely to be between the 970,000 it gives as disappearing and the 600, 000 Toynbee gave. Of course, the Pasha document places the population of Armenians as a whole at only 1.2 million.

 

[Dogukan]

That's not a very healthy sentiment.

"I'm going to let you get away with things just because I want us to be cool."

That being said, they didn't get away with it, in a way, and it's far in the past, so there's not any reason to bring it up anyway. Unless I'm mistaken.
It's not like we keep going to Germany saying "So, about that Holocaust thing..."

well there is political sid in this issue. The moment Turkey accepts the genocide, they will be forced(forced because they are a part of international community and has a libral economy) to pay loads of money for the victims and it will go as far as territorial changes. Which I would actually like but that is because I'm a traitor.

 

[BySimsek]

That's not a very healthy sentiment.

"I'm going to let you get away with things just because I want us to be cool."

That being said, they didn't get away with it, in a way, and it's far in the past, so there's not any reason to bring it up anyway. Unless I'm mistaken.
It's not like we keep going to Germany saying "So, about that Holocaust thing..."

well there is political sid in this issue. The moment Turkey accepts the genocide, they will be forced(forced because they are a part of international community and has a libral economy) to pay loads of money for the victims and it will go as far as territorial changes. Which I would actually like but that is because I'm a traitor.

With the traitor that you can not see the relevance. Everyone thought at the time what it believes what it believes to be back already thinking

 

[NODKRM]

Genocide? Good... Anybody knows what a real genocide is?
Armenians were called as "Christian Turks" in every age of Ottoman because of the friendship between Turks. But during WWI, remember what Woodrow Wilson said:
Every nation can found it's own national country where they are dominant.
So, Armenians were discarted with the propagandas of Allies, they started to massacre Turks in the region. So, there was only solution, not genocide of course. Armenians were forced to immigrate to south, that's all. During the immigration, of course some of them died. By the way, there were being protected by Ottoman guards.

-The reports says 1,5 millions of Armenians died... but there was only 900.000 Armenians in Ottoman Empire, how to trust?
-The photos at the link doens't show a genocide at all. Showing a dead person is not showing a genocide. But there are tons of photos of the Turks massacred by Armenians. I will find them sometime. You can see people with Turkish traditional clothes made a line and being shooted. That's a genocide.
-Now Armenia's population is 2.967.004. Paradox or what?

I don't care what they teach you about Turks, but use your so-called "Wikipedia", not your history teachers if possible.

EDIT: And we don't care about the quotes of "Pashas", and other royals. They are "offical" traitors, they escaped to England (then some other islands) after the war. So if you say "they" made it, you will say "Allies did".

 

[Xendor]

well there is political sid in this issue. The moment Turkey accepts the genocide, they will be forced(forced because they are a part of international community and has a libral economy) to pay loads of money for the victims and it will go as far as territorial changes. Which I would actually like but that is because I'm a traitor.

 

[Gule]

?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

Don't show me wikipedia pages. Because it's a free encyclopedia.Everyone can change it

Scroll down to the bottom of the page and take a look at how many sources that particular article has, there is evidence enough.