Armenian Genocide (?)

Do you believe?

  • Yes

    Votes: 203 61.5%
  • No

    Votes: 127 38.5%

  • Total voters
    330

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Ser Jon

Sergeant
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
@ the topic of potential repeat genocides:

I didn't mean to offend, but I do think genocide denial leading to an environment which can breed the exact same thing is an exceptionally important matter to discuss in a thread about Armenian genocide. Because pointing out that countries/governments that fail to recognize the things they did—especially horrific ones based on eliminating certain people—can often repeat their mistakes is relevant. How can Turkey's history and their potential eager to repeat themselves not be valid here? What do you think comes of this behavior, acceptance? I've read enough history—especially Turkey's—to know that isn't how this works.

Imagine if Germany did not teach their people about the holocaust, which is no different than not teaching that it was wrong. No one would ever doubt the possibility of denial in that regard potentially leading to another holocaust. I think my case rests beautifully in that regard (raising people to hate and or discriminate against) to a number of the posters here, hell bent on the idea that the Armenians are an enemy to Turkey and they're trying to whip out Turkey and the "real Ottoman citizens".

So yes, I think it is relevant and I do not think it is offensive to discuss the Turkish government repeating itself from its current stance. And I am not anti-Turkish and I do not appreciate being accused of it simply because I dare to suggest genocide denial nurtures an environment that breeds the same mentality that originally caused it.

Well, I read about the evidence you are referring to and they are all fake.

No you didn't and I highly doubt you read two books in the several hours that I have been gone. Just admit you just don't accept them and limit your denial to that. Otherwise, your next response should be proving that all these documents and recordings are fake. Of course, I know you won't, but it will be fun regardless to see you potentially try.

The telegrams were not proved as real and it's originals just weren't found in the last 106 years.

Yes, they have been proved authentic, by numerous sources. Again, this "everyone else is lying" argument. Try to come up with something that actually has substance.

All other words are just someone's subjective opinions.

No, it isn't. They came straight from Talaat's mouth to multiple people. You're gonna have to come up with an intelligent counter argument other than "that's not true".

The Russian newspaper's title is pure propaganda and the "photo" there looks drawn. Even if it's real it easily can be Turkish victims of Armenian troops.

Of course it's drawn, that doesn't mean it isn't real. And no, they were Armenians in the article (one of dozens). Practically the whole world were reporting on the Armenian genocide. Recording it with photos, newspapers, reports etc. I could show you real photos, but they are graphic and would probably violate forum rules, but you would probably come back with "those could be Turkish victims of Armenian troops!" and have nothing to actual disprove the photos with.

If need be, I can link them instead I just want a moderator to confirm such photos are safe for the discussion before I do.

With such "evidence" there's no surprise that the world don't want to commit it as a genocide. Except Biden may be, but I already told about his motives.

You mean the evidence the world can plainly see, but a few detached from reality cannot? Talaat ordered their extermination every time someone spoke to him. He was happy to. Your inability to accept this as reality doesn't change what it is. It doesn't change that Turkey exterminated the Kurds, the Armenians, the Bulgarians—none of it.

Nobody can deny that many Armenians were killed in 1915 including civilians and this is really sad but they killed many innocent Ottoman civilians before that and there is no real evidence of involvement of Turkish government to this act.

First of all, yes there is proof of the Turkish government being involved. So much proof, in fact, that Turkey argues it only looks as if they ordered a genocide. Their argument is that it was accidental, that 1.5 million Armenians died "accidentally" (being shot along roads, burned alive in locked up houses, put in trains and starved to death etc) being shipped off to a deserted desert town in which he lied about as well. Secondly, are you saying the Armenians deserved it because you think they were all (all 1.5m of them) out killing Ottoman civilians (just so you know, Armenians were Ottomans too but judging from your posts, you don't see them as anything but a problem)?

And again, the Empire was falling apart and the government couldn't control it, I really doubt that even if they wish they were able to implement such large-scale operation at that time.

The Empire falling apart doesn't grant them a right to exterminate an entire people, even if they thought they were being killed by rogue Armenians. What you fail to understand or accept is that they did orchestrate the extraction of the entire Armenian population from Turkey (again, read into the things I told you about) and then had Teşkilât-ı Mahsusa exterminate them on the way there. Even the official population documents from Turkey shows 900k population drop off in just 1 year. There are numerous documents and recordings, but you are so lost in your own world you won't accept them. That doesn't mean they aren't real.
 
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Of course, apparently muslims have been called "Turks" as an umbrella term. Still, I would argue that there were lots of Turks inbetween the muslims, who got ... 'deported'. And even if not, human tragedy is always sad.
Are you really trying to limit the debate because you are .... Turkish?
Are you by any chance ... French or Armenian? OR BOTH?

I would probably not be in this thread if I wasn't a Turk. I bring subjectivity with me of course. But let us not go that way and approach the topic differently.

Following the "highly trusthworthy" wikipedia link, you can search for the term "genocide" in which there seems to be one foreign scholar named McCarthy who apparently... defends the deniers. Guess I win... well, better than nothing. Would be nice if it really did not happen after all.

There have been some Arabic documents posted here. Are there translations for them? I can't speak Arabic and probably most of us here can't.
Whether they are authentic or not: Don't care really, you could post and authenticity document of it and I would not be wiser of it as that could be forged or whatever. But at a translation for the sake of enlightenment and discussion would be most welcome, even if not neccessary.

Edit:
Turkey, today, is a country which is quick to jump on board of protecting minorities and help the helpless. It is partially the national spirit.
Y'all don't live in Turkey, do you? Because you jump to conclusions of Turkey opressing its minorities rather very quickly. Last time I checked, Kurds were still living in the SE regions of Turkey, were able to engage politically, have no disadvantages in education, had to do military service as any other Turk would. This might not be the case in every class of Turkish society and might depend on the province of course. But painting Turkey as a country just itching to finish of Armenians and reconquer the Balkans or something is just not right.
While for us, Turkey is protecting its borders from terrorist dangers, in your country it might be depicted as us destroying Kurdish villages in Syria - the next genocide.

Edit2:
Genocide denial will not neccassarily enable room for another genocide - at all.
Genocide denial means in other words: "We did not do it and we are not capable of such an inhuman crime. As we are not capable of such a thing, simply, because we have no interest in human suffering, such a crime, which is most disgraceful, will never ever happen in the future, as it did not happen in the past or is happening right now."
Even if it happened and Turkey is infact denying it, coming to the conclusion that then Turks are capable of genociding again is a big stretch. Those were terrible times for Turks and the official statement being Even then we did not kill innocents as they did, of course is... a nice thing to say perhaps?
 
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Ser Jon

Sergeant
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Of course, apparently muslims have been called "Turks" as an umbrella term. Still, I would argue that there were lots of Turks inbetween the muslims, who got ... 'deported'. And even if not, human tragedy is always sad.

Yes, they often got killed and deported at the time for sheltering Armenians.

And no one has denied Turks were killed, but they were not systematically hunted down by their own government as the Armenians were (big difference) and Turks dying doesn't give the Ottoman Empire a right to exterminate an entire people, nor does it grant them the right to deny something because they think the world denies that Turks have been victims.

As for the documents provided, you can find their respective translations on Wikipedia as well as the sources I mentioned (the books and documents linked from them). There are of course even more sources for translations—dozens upon dozens—but the few I mentioned are regarded as the best because they are extensive.
 
Genocide denial will not neccassarily enable room for another genocide - at all.
Genocide denial means in other words: "We did not do it and we are not capable of such an inhuman crime. As we are not capable of such a thing, simply, because we have no interest in human suffering, such a crime, which is most disgraceful, will never ever happen in the future, as it did not happen in the past or is happening right now."
Even if it happened and Turkey is infact denying it, coming to the conclusion that then Turks are capable of genociding again is a big stretch. Those were terrible times for Turks and the official statement being Even then we did not kill innocents as they did, of course is... a nice thing to say perhaps?
That's an interesting argument, but not the only narrative circulating in Turkey about the genocide. The other, nasty one, is that you were stabbed in the back by the nasty Armenians and they had it coming. (A nationalist Turkish politician threatened an Armenian minority politician that he'll meet the same fate as his ancestors.)
The narrative is somewhat similar to calling various Kurds "terrorists" today. The state told me that the people we bombed today are terrorists, so it's okay they were killed. It's a similar story of portraying yourself as a victim of another ethnicity to then justify action against them.

There was one point in time several years ago when there was a possibility of coming to an agreement with the Turkish Kurds and PKK. Erdogan thought about it and decided he will be going to war instead. The rhetoric against Kurds hardened and their leaders found themselves jailed and prosecuted. Turks increasingly spoke of "terrorists" and Erdogan seized the moment to increase his power to dictatorial levels on a wave of nationalism spurred by the conflict. He knew exactly what he was doing and didn't care that people died because of this.

Are you by any chance ... French or Armenian? OR BOTH?
Neither. I thought Turks were okay until I met them online, especially in threads like this.
 
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Zombie Warrior

Sergeant Knight
Yeah, fantastic position - bring fake telegrams and tell people to prove that they are fake. xD
Again, how can you so casually infirm the authenticity of said telegrams? What makes them fake? Are you an expert on telegrams? I doubt you can tell me how and why they're fake, because you don't really know why, you just know that they have to be fake because it contradicts the long brainwashing session the tuerkish schooling system has made you go through.

I dismiss your "evidence" because it's all subjective and fake.
I dismiss your "dismissal" because it's all subjective and fake.

You are all fanatics begging for reparations
That is utterly false, you can just read the history of this topic for proof. None of us want reparations, just an acknowledgement.
 

Ser Jon

Sergeant
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
You are all fanatics begging for reparations and I find all further discussions with you totally unproductive, over and out.

This exactly proves my point about the denial of genocide educating the masses into anti-X sentiments. I don't think we need a time machine to figure out what those sentiments caused between 1890-1915. 😐
 

I think you can talk about what is happening nowdays and about them, instead of potentials that you make in your head. Armenia is just a warmonger that It has been nothing but a toy of some Major powers and politics. History repeats itself. We saw what happend with Azerbeijan too. Maybe in 2120 you can start talk about Armenian genocide that made by Azerbeijan goverment(!).

I will give just one more example, why no one cares about Armenian genocide and it is just a trend.

EFVVm1uU8AAIeOn.jpg
 

Ser Jon

Sergeant
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
thats the same laugh Kim Kardashian makes when she sells her products made in Turkey to angry armenians.

What?

Your anti-Armenianism is ridiculous.

I am not making stuff in my head like you, I am so sorry

Disprove my posts. Go on. Take each individual piece of evidence I presented and go into detail why it isn't real. Oh, and just so you no, "Because Turkey says so" isn't an argument.

I'll wait.
 
What?

Your anti-Armenianism is ridiculous.

How it is ridiculous? Why she is not producing that stuff in armenia but in Turkey? If armenian genocide that important why important armenian figure produces stuff in barbaric-turkey but not in armenia. I am telling again no one cares about Armenian genocide and it is just a trend.Armenia is nothing but a toy of some Major powers and politics. And i am not making things in my head or write potentials/possibilities. I am giving you some facts to think about it.
 

Ser Jon

Sergeant
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
How it is ridiculous? Why she is not producing that stuff in armenia but in Turkey? If armenian genocide that important why important armenian figure produces stuff in barbaric-turkey but not in armenia. I am telling again no one cares about Armenian genocide and it is just a trend.Armenia is nothing but a toy of some Major powers and politics. And i am not making things in my head or write potentials/possibilities. I am giving you some facts to think about it.

Because selling product or not in a country doesn't mean jack **** to this discussion, that's why?

Now are you going to explain why I'm wrong or continue on these delusional tirades against the Armenians?
 
Because selling product or not in a country doesn't mean jack **** to this discussion, that's why?
I am not talking about selling I am talking about producing a product in a country that sees people of that country as their genociders and It is a key part of this discussion, if you know where to look at it. And it is just funny at this point. I don't need to write wall of text to explain why, to some Turkophobic people on here to justfiy myself. Neither I am a historian myself to tell you what document to read/bealive or not and I am not making stuff in my head like you. I am looking to recent history and present since history repeats itself. But don't worry i will be there when you guys open Armenian genocide of Azerbeijan (!) thread next time.
 

Ser Jon

Sergeant
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
I am not talking about selling I am talking about producing a product in a country that sees people of that country as their genociders and It is a key part of this discussion, if you know where to look at it. And it is just funny at this point. I don't need to write wall of text to explain why, to some Turkophobic people on here to justfiy myself. Neither I am a historian myself to tell you what document to read/bealive or not and I am not making stuff in my head like you. I am looking to recent history and present since history repeats itself. But don't worry i will be there when you guys open Armenian genocide of Azerbeijan (!) thread next time.

Doesn't matter what you are talking about. Sale, produce, trading, etc etc, none of it has any relevance to the topic. What part of that is hard too understand?

No one here is being Turkophobic. There are a lot of people being phobic against Armenians...including you.
 

Zombie Warrior

Sergeant Knight
I am not talking about selling I am talking about producing a product in a country that sees people of that country as their genociders and It is a key part of this discussion, if you know where to look at it.
Red herring. Whether an armenian brand of clothing is being produced in Turkey doesn't disprove the genocide. All it proves is that armenians are reasonable enough to not be blinded by ancestral and ethnic hatred like their turkish neighbours and will willingly buy products made in turkey.

And it is just funny at this point.
The turkish people can't tolerate armenians and every 60 second in turkey, there are 3 macrominutes of anti armenian conspirationist stories being told. It is ironic then that the armenians will buy stuff produced "by their genociders" without being bothered by it. If you find that funny, then I understand why.

I don't need to explain why, to some Turkophobic people on here to justfiy myself.
Yes, you do need to explain. So far, deniers have systematically failed to explain anything and expected us to believe whatever they say and trust their word. They've failed to properly explain their arguments and counter arguments... however, I doubt if we should consider those arguments or strategies to shift the topic with whataboutism and red herrings.

Neither I am a historian myself to tell you what document to read/bealive or not
You don't need to be a historian to be discussing about historical facts.

I am not making stuff in my head like you.
Ser has provided evidence that supports his claims. Where's yours?

I am looking to recent history and present since history repeats itself
Since history has tendency to repeat itself, it is vital that Turkey recognizes the armenian genocide. Not only has Turkey continued to persecute religious minorities later in its history, the outcome of the event has been used by Nazis to justify their own genocide.

But don't worry i will be there when you guys open Armenian genocide of Azerbeijan (!) thread next time.
This is embarrassing because it is so easy to verify, but the person who made this thread doesn't believe in the Armenian genocide.
 
No one here is being Turkophobic. There are a lot of people being phobic against Armenians...including you.
I am looking at page 31,32 and 33 again to be sure. I will give you last advice. Don't affraid to tell what you are to yourself and don't forget to buy Turkish flags to burn/step on when you wan't to protest (buy made in turkey ones :fruity: )
armenians are reasonable enough to not be blinded by ancestral and ethnic hatred like their turkish neighbours
ahahah sure reasonable. Will send you some recent thing (4-5 days old) to think about (what i send before ).

 

Ser Jon

Sergeant
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
I am looking at page 31,32 and 33 again to be sure. I will give you last advice. Don't affraid to tell what you are to yourself and don't forget to buy Turkish flags to burn/step on when you wan't to protest (buy made in turkey ones :fruity: )

What?

Are you actually going to prove your argument that it is all fake (as in, prove how) or sit here and whinge about your hatred of Armenians while chiding people for what you perceive as anti-Turkish sentiments?
 
Maybe in 2120 you can start talk about Armenian genocide that made by Azerbeijan goverment(!).
But don't worry i will be there when you guys open Armenian genocide of Azerbeijan (!) thread next
Armenia is nothing but a toy of some Major powers and politics.

It's stuff like this that makes you sound like a nationalist. All your arguments are acting like anyone who brings up the Armenian genocide is only doing so to attack Turkey itself, and that they're being unfair unless they mention every other transgression against Turkey or "turks" at the same time.

Imagine if you went onto a holomodor thread and said "well the nazis killed loads of soviet civilians, why aren't you mentioning that?". Factually you are right, but by bringing it up you're just showing everyone how you see genocide accusations as an unfair attack against the country the perpetrated it, which is frankly insane, and anyone who isn't a nationalist will see through it in an instant.
 
What is bad about being a nationalist? Call it patriotism then if you otherwise see it as racist supremacy or something...

I have to say, that mentioning nazis killing soviet civilians or not is out of the picture, because all parties here are not denying that.
Rather Armenians killing Turkish civilians or Balkan people killing Turkish civilians or EOKA killing Turkish civilians or Russians killing Turkic civilians or Allied powers killing Turkish civilians... why don't you mention those and have it recognized as a genocide too?

All we talk here about is "Your Turkish ancestors did evil!" "No, mine didn't. Actually, your ancestors did." "Why are you trying to change the topic of your ancestors having done evil crimes?" "Because they didn't. But yours did, why don't you see that?" "NOOO WHY DON....
Even answering with "nope, no Armenian genocide, but other genocides", it is labelled instantly as red herring and whataboutism lol
You are just acting in bad faith then. Trying to come to an agreement somehow would be nice instead of antagonizing most Turks with their replies.

you get the idea

Edit:
Talking about today's politics, Armenia is bad**** crazy. Burning flags, terrorist activities after surrendering, massacring civilians, destroying the entire abandoned livingspaces of Azerbaijanis, daydreaming about Greater Armenia, hating Turks and "keeping Azerbaijan and Turkey apart at any cost".
An average Turk just does not care about Armenia.
Assumptions of "You have no freespeech in Turkey, you would insult Turkishness if you talked about the Armenian genocide or even aknowledging it"... is just not right at all. Last time I checked, the news talked and people on the streets could too. My neighbour whom I could visit and talk about the Armenian genocide last time is not going to report be to the police, the police will not arrive and put me into handcuffs and throw me into the next available cell or something what the hell...

Someone had said that this forum is not Turkey. Well guess again.



Edit2:
Let us again assume that the Armenian genocide happened.
Let us assume Turkey would be somewhat willing to accept it or is about to.
What would Armenia's and Armenians reaction be? I don't know. But it would not be unfair to assume that it would involve crazy demands.
 
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Nega-Brutus

Sergeant
There's a slight self-awareness these types have as to how ridiculous they sound, but the mental gymnastics persists, because admittance would mean some sort of house of cards of premises will collapse by doing so. It really fascinates me.
 
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