Armenian Genocide (?)

Do you believe?

  • Yes

    Votes: 203 61.5%
  • No

    Votes: 127 38.5%

  • Total voters
    330

Currently viewing this thread:

Ser Jon

Sergeant
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
I think you're going a bit too far here.

Is it? Because the country operates to this day in the denial of others' existence and their rights as human beings, and have a rich history of exterminating others for what they are and for their own benefit. Their civil codes are still to this day written in a way that grants them the same "authority" to confiscate more property under the guise of "public safety". That is perfectly within their [government's] line of thought, as they show it themselves however they can. So how is it a reach to say that Turkey knows the profit of these actions, and that's why they refuse to admit it happened or allow anyone to go through any of the evidence they hold themselves?
 
I think you're going a bit too far here.
That's a relief. I guess they'll never invent another internal enemy and proceed to displace and kill them. Which would be a direct consequence of the genocide denial and the nationalist propaganda that goes with it.
Wait...
 

Kiron

Archivist
Global Moderator
WBNWM&B
Let's try again, you're going too far here just to make a point. Fill the blanks. I'm not discussing here how bad or nice Turkey is since this is not a topic to do it. I'm definetly not discussing about 1915. I'm simply saying you are going too far when you say any nation is a danger claiming that they're capable of another genocide. I know that throwing arguments feels so justified but I'm not a random Turkish guy who entered the topic with naive emotional speeches and I'm not here for a challange. You're just being offensive and I'm simply pointing it out.
 

Ser Jon

Sergeant
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
It's not a reach though. Turkey has always made people into enemies, and justified the mass murder of them through the "benefit of the state". They still treat Armenians as if they were nothing. And from what we've seen of history, when a country sees others as non-human, they tend to act on it. Which Turkey has done, though it isn't like the Armenians were Turkey's first and last victim. This has happened in their history multiple times, and they keep denying it all, while they profit off their victims, which continues to this day. When you deny something like this has happened, it breeds the mentality that it was okay or that the victims are some great evil trying to take Turkey down—which fuels yet another problem.

And nothing I said was offensive though? It isn't like I said all of the Turks are at fault for what their government did, that would be ridiculous. I made an effort to point out numerous times whom I was referring, and that is the Turkish government and its officials. I made a valid point that this sort of thing breeds the same ground that created that violence in the first place, and it is valid. Turkey demeans the Armenians importance by forbidding the mere discussion of what happened to them as anything but some freak accident—as if Armenians just lined up along the road and shot themselves in the head or locked themselves up by the thousands inside of homes and burned themselves alive.
 

R1919

Regular
I voted "no". I love reading historical books. Afaik the Armenians lived in the Ottoman Empire for hundreds of years. And they weren't oppressed there, but they were able to make good military or civil careers in the Empire, many warlords or even Grand Viziers were Armenians.
And in the harsh times, when the Empire were falling apart, the Armenian troops betrayed them and has begun marauding, capturing cities and killing civilians. They killed thousands of innocent women and children of all nationalities who lived there may be except Armenians. Basically, there were no government control of the country like it always happens in such times and the Turks could barely resist them in all this mess. They've managed to find few troops who remained loyal and sent them to restore order. Some people think that the Turkish troops saw all massacre the Armenians did and decided to take revenge. I can be wrong but afaik there were no documents found so far with direct order to kill Armenians from Ottoman officials. Please, correct me, if it's not true.
So, ofc the Russians, the British and all other countries has begun a massive propaganda campaign blaming the Ottomans in all sins. This is understandable, because they were on the opposite side in the WW1 and they tried to intensify internal contradictions in the dying Ottoman Empire to withdraw it from the war quicker. They succeeded in this and the Russia has received Armenia under it's protectorate, UK has got Palestina, Egypt and many other lands. Later, Armenia has become a part of the USSR following their Russian masters.
Speaking of Armenia, it is a small piece of land somewhere in mountains, without any minerals or other natural resources. Most of the Armenians live outside of the Armenia. There are only about 3 millions people living in Armenia and about 12 millions of the Armenians in the world. For example, 500k-2 mils Armenians live in the USA, and also they have many Armenian gangs in LA. Btw, there are about 500 thousand of Armenians still living in the Turkey.
Why do they want the events in 1915 to be committed as a genocide even after a hundred years? Ofc, they do want reparations, because Armenia itself is very poor. They can tell to everyone that they have only the best intentions but it's all about money.
And the last question - why Biden now declares that it was a genocide? Armenian lobbyists spent years to make the White House such move but why they did it only now? Imo this is a part of a political game. I guess, in opinion of the US government Turkey after Karabakh war has gathered too much political power in the region and the Turks are becoming too independent from the US politics pursuing their own interests, so this is the way for US to set pressure on Turkey.
P.S. I'm not a Turk
 
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Ser Jon

Sergeant
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
So, ofc the Russians, the British and all other countries has begun a massive propaganda campaign blaming the Ottomans in all sins.

Ah, yes, the "everyone else are the ones lying" argument. It couldn't be that the world knows it happened because numerous countries witnessed it and documented it and were told directly by Turkic leaders how the Armenians would be "solved".

Turkish troops saw all massacre the Armenians did and decided to take revenge. I can be wrong but afaik there were no documents found so far with direct order to kill Armenians from Ottoman officials. Please, correct me, if it's not true.

There are numerous documents that exist outlining all of the orders put against the Armenians and any who might help them. Documentation from both Turkey and figures who had wrote what was happening there, as ambassadors or foreign military and journalists. Here are a few:

Instruction_of_the_Ministery_of_the_Interior_on_april_24.png

3n9LnpH.jpg

%C4%B0kdam%2C_4_Kas%C4%B1m_1918.jpg

w4OYb6T.png

sdgJbTY.png

AmbassadorMorgenthautelegram.jpg


Everyone was writing about the atrocities and recording it, from Talaat's mouth himself to photos and journalistic recordings. A dozen different people talked with Mehmed and all were told the same thing about Armenians and Christians and Kurds.

Now, if you go read The Memoirs of Naim Bey or The Remaining Documents of Mehmed Talaat (just so you know, the documents here were given to the journalist Murat Bardakçı by Talaat's ex-wife, Hayriye), you will be presented with even more documents. It includes telegram evidence (which the countries that got them verify as being real) that the Ottoman Empire set it all up. That Talaat ordered it and proudly admitted it to anyone who listened, and justified the genocide by saying that even if the Armenians were innocent, they probably wouldn't have been innocent tomorrow. Then, when speaking with the U.S ambassador Henry Morgenthau, he said:

It is no use for you to argue . . . we have already disposed of three quarters of the Armenians; there are none at all left in Bitlis, Van, and Erzeroum. The hatred between the Turks and the Armenians is now so intense that we have got to finish with them. If we don’t, they will plan their revenge.

He then added to Morgenthau, "that our Armenian policy is absolutely fixed and that nothing can change it. We will not have the Armenians anywhere in Anatolia. They can live in the desert but nowhere else". Not hard to believe Talaat's word about how many were already destroyed when Lake Hazar and the surrounding gorges were reported by a dozen different world representatives to have been "choked with the Armenian dead".

If that is not enough to convince you, Bahattin Şakir (operator of Teşkilât-ı Mahsusa) wrote in a letter in March 15 1915:

...the Committee of Union and Progress, as the bearer of the nation’s honor, has decided to free the homeland from the inordinate ambitions of this accursed nation and to assume the responsibility for the blemish that will stain Ottoman history in this regard. The Committee, which cannot forget [the country’s] bitter and unhappy history and whose cup runneth over with the unrelenting desire for revenge, has decided to annihilate all of Armenians living within Turkey, not to allow a single one to remain, and has given the government broad authority in this regard. On the question of how this killing and massacring will be carried out, the [central] government will give the necessary instructions to the provincial governors and army commanders. All of the Unionist regional representatives would concern themselves with following up on the matter in all of the places where they were found, and would ensure that not a single Armenian would receive protection or assistance.

Still not enough? Mehmed Talaat wrote and spoke numerous times about wiping out the Armenians, to the point that the word "Armenia" would be forgotten. I should not have to explain who Mehmed was, but just in case I do, Mehmed Talaat was the de-facto political leader of the Ottoman Empire. When Talaat spoke with Mordtmann (a German Embassy Representative) he spoke at great length, and proudly too, about his plans to destroy the Christians within Turkey and knew he could do so in a way that he could not be intervened:

Turkey is taking advantage of the war in order to thoroughly liquidate its internal foes, i.e., the indigenous Christians, without being thereby disturbed by foreign intervention.

Then, when the German ambassador tried to save the Armenians, Talaat ordered his removal via letter to Berlin and reconfirmed his intentions by stating "the work must be done now, after the war it will be too late". Then when Johann von Bernstorff (another ambassador from Germany) kept asking him questions about the Armenians in particular, it is reported Talaat smiled and said, "What on earth do you want? The question is settled, there are no more Armenians". Talaat then made a similar remark to a Swedish military attaché, whom report to have said, "The way the Armenian problem was solved was hair-raising. I can still see in front of me Talaat's cynical expression, when he emphasized that the Armenian question was solved". Turkey also wrote law that would execute Arabs, Kurds* or Turks for sheltering Armenians too, and would execute them the same way as the Armenians for daring to provide aide.

So far, not a lick of evidence to prove it hasn't happened has been provided by anyone here. The only argument the opposition has on it is that Turkish officials say "it didn't happen" and that everyone else is just lying, but somehow that's evidence enough? Mind boggling, really. 😓

*Kurds, another victim of the Turkish country

There is no doubt the genocide was done with intention. No doubt to anyone but Turkey, who thinks they are fooling the world because they can control what their own people think. I suggest you look into Iskân-ı A âir ve Muhacirîn Müdüriyeti, Der el-Zor, the Settlement and Detachment law, the Ottoman Archives, and the Talaat telegrams and manuscripts, as well as the documentation recorded by Germany, Sweden, Russia, America and France.

It would of course help to go through the Turkish archives and evidence, but Erdogan and Turkey will not allow that. Hmm. I wonder why. :unsure: If only the discussion of the genocide wasn't forbidden there, or the criticism of Erodogan, and perhaps even the ability to search through land registry, population records, telegram documentation. It's almost as if they have something to hide.
 
And the last question - why Biden now declares that it was a genocide? Armenian lobbyists spent years to make the White House such move but why they did it only now? Imo this is a part of a political game. I guess, in opinion of the US government Turkey after Karabakh war has gathered too much political power in the region and the Turks are becoming too independent from the US politics pursuing their own interests, so this is the way for US to set pressure on Turkey.
Why now? Because the US Turkish relations are bad enough already and the US can afford it. Obama promised he would recognize the genocide, but then didn't to keep good relations at the time. THAT'S the political game, not recognizing the genocide.
P.S. I'm not a Turk
But Turkic something and you won't say it because you are hiding your tribal loyalty. That's beginner level of not telling the truth.
 

R1919

Regular
Ah, yes, the "everyone else are the ones lying" argument. It couldn't be that the world knows it happened because numerous countries witnessed it and documented it and were told directly by Turkic leaders how the Armenians would be "solved".



There are numerous documents that exist outlining all of the orders put against the Armenians and any who might help them. Documentation from both Turkey and figures who had wrote what was happening there, as ambassadors or foreign military and journalists. Here are a few:

Instruction_of_the_Ministery_of_the_Interior_on_april_24.png

3n9LnpH.jpg

%C4%B0kdam%2C_4_Kas%C4%B1m_1918.jpg

w4OYb6T.png

sdgJbTY.png

AmbassadorMorgenthautelegram.jpg


Everyone was writing about the atrocities and recording it, from Talaat's mouth himself to photos and journalistic recordings. A dozen different people talked with Mehmed and all were told the same thing about Armenians and Christians and Kurds.

Now, if you go read The Memoirs of Naim Bey or The Remaining Documents of Mehmed Talaat (just so you know, the documents here were given to the journalist Murat Bardakçı by Talaat's ex-wife, Hayriye), you will be presented with even more documents. It includes telegram evidence (which the countries that got them verify as being real) that the Ottoman Empire set it all up. That Talaat ordered it and proudly admitted it to anyone who listened, and justified the genocide by saying that even if the Armenians were innocent, they probably wouldn't have been innocent tomorrow. Then, when speaking with the U.S ambassador Henry Morgenthau, he said:



He then added to Morgenthau, "that our Armenian policy is absolutely fixed and that nothing can change it. We will not have the Armenians anywhere in Anatolia. They can live in the desert but nowhere else". Not hard to believe Talaat's word about how many were already destroyed when Lake Hazar and the surrounding gorges were reported by a dozen different world representatives to have been "choked with the Armenian dead".

If that is not enough to convince you, Bahattin Şakir (operator of Teşkilât-ı Mahsusa) wrote in a letter in March 15 1915:



Still not enough? Mehmed Talaat wrote and spoke numerous times about wiping out the Armenians, to the point that the word "Armenia" would be forgotten. I should not have to explain who Mehmed was, but just in case I do, Mehmed Talaat was the de-facto political leader of the Ottoman Empire. When Talaat spoke with Mordtmann (a German Embassy Representative) he spoke at great length, and proudly too, about his plans to destroy the Christians within Turkey and knew he could do so in a way that he could not be intervened:



Then, when the German ambassador tried to save the Armenians, Talaat ordered his removal via letter to Berlin and reconfirmed his intentions by stating "the work must be done now, after the war it will be too late". Then when Johann von Bernstorff (another ambassador from Germany) kept asking him questions about the Armenians in particular, it is reported Talaat smiled and said, "What on earth do you want? The question is settled, there are no more Armenians". Talaat then made a similar remark to a Swedish military attaché, whom report to have said, "The way the Armenian problem was solved was hair-raising. I can still see in front of me Talaat's cynical expression, when he emphasized that the Armenian question was solved". Turkey also wrote law that would execute Arabs, Kurds* or Turks for sheltering Armenians too, and would execute them the same way as the Armenians for daring to provide aide.

So far, not a lick of evidence to prove it hasn't happened has been provided by anyone here. The only argument the opposition has on it is that Turkish officials say "it didn't happen" and that everyone else is just lying, but somehow that's evidence enough? Mind boggling, really. 😓

*Kurds, another victim of the Turkish country

There is no doubt the genocide was done with intention. No doubt to anyone but Turkey, who thinks they are fooling the world because they can control what their own people think. I suggest you look into Iskân-ı A âir ve Muhacirîn Müdüriyeti, Der el-Zor, the Settlement and Detachment law, the Ottoman Archives, and the Talaat telegrams and manuscripts, as well as the documentation recorded by Germany, Sweden, Russia, America and France.

It would of course help to go through the Turkish archives and evidence, but Erdogan and Turkey will not allow that. Hmm. I wonder why. :unsure: If only the discussion of the genocide wasn't forbidden there, or the criticism of Erodogan, and perhaps even the ability to search through land registry, population records, telegram documentation. It's almost as if they have something to hide.

Well, I read about the evidence you are referring to and they are all fake.
The telegrams were not proved as real and it's originals just weren't found in the last 106 years.
All other words are just someone's subjective opinions.
The Russian newspaper's title is pure propaganda and the "photo" there looks drawn. Even if it's real it easily can be Turkish victims of Armenian troops.
With such "evidence" there's no surprise that the world don't want to commit it as a genocide. Except Biden may be, but I already told about his motives.
Nobody can deny that many Armenians were killed in 1915 including civilians and this is really sad but they killed many innocent Ottoman civilians before that and there is no real evidence of involvement of Turkish government to this act.
And again, the Empire was falling apart and the government couldn't control it, I really doubt that even if they wish they were able to implement such large-scale operation at that time.
 

Zombie Warrior

Sergeant Knight
Well, I read about the evidence you are referring to and they are all fake.
Says who?

The telegrams were not proved as real and it's originals just weren't found in the last 106 years.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

All other words are just someone's subjective opinions.
"I don't like it, so it can't be real !"

The Russian newspaper's title is pure propaganda and the "photo" there looks drawn.
On what grounds can you claim that it is pure propaganda and how does the photo look drawn to you? If you are of good faith, you should point out and explain the flaws you have seen in those to make your argument more convincing.

Nobody can deny that many Armenians were killed in 1915 including civilians and this is really sad but they killed many innocent Ottoman civilians before that
All Armenian rebellion and resistance was completely justified as an act of self-defense. All Armenian resistance was preceded by massacres of Armenian civilians. If they had not resisted, they would have died.[20]

there is no real evidence of involvement of Turkish government to this act.
Turkish denialists similarly claim that because "there was no intent" to exterminate Christian minorities, it wasn't a genocide.[31][32] This is similarly false. The Ottoman state created "butcher battalions" to slaughter Christians and engaged in the mass rape of women of Christian ethnicities, while kidnapping children and forcibly converting them to Islam.[33] From this, we know that either the massacres were intended or the Turks made organizations to do things they didn't want to do.

(...)

Soldiers were ordered to slaughter Armenian civilians, and bounties were paid for their deaths. Property of the deceased was confiscated, and those who caused the deaths were generally allowed to keep a sizable portion.

(...)

Ottoman gendarmes purposely threw bodies of dead Armenians into wells after killing them, in order to make the water undrinkable for others.[39

(...)

There is similarly no lack of proof or intent. It was official Ottoman policy that "Armenians girls be married to Muslims" in order to decimate their communities and use their bodies to breed more Mahommetans.[50][51]

(...)

The genocide was based on clear orders from above. Ottoman Interior Affairs Minister Talaat Pasha ordered Diyarbakir governor Reshid Bey to exterminate the Armenians within his jurisdiction in a telegram containing three words-"Burn-Destroy-Kill".[55][note 5] He gladly admitted that he was completely intolerant of any Armenians remaining in their ancestral homeland in eastern Anatolia, stating that they should be forced to die in the Syrian desert.[56][57] Since Talaat had planned to exterminate the Armenians since at least 1910, confiding his desire to the Danish ambassador, it can safely be said that the deportations were not a legitimate war measure.

(...)

With such "evidence" there's no surprise that the world don't want to commit it as a genocide. Except Biden may be, but I already told about his motives.
Actually, most of the world either explicitly recognizes the armenian genocide or stays neutral to maintain good relations with Turkey. Only two states actively deny it; Turkey and Azerbaijan.

@R119 you casually dismiss evidence and say everything we give you is false. How can one have a dialogue with someone like you who refuses anything someone submits to them? Not only that, but you don't provide any evidence to your counter claims while we have graciously given ours. It seems to me that you are not debating in good faith.
 

R1919

Regular
Says who?


Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.


"I don't like it, so it can't be real !"


On what grounds can you claim that it is pure propaganda and how does the photo look drawn to you? If you are of good faith, you should point out and explain the flaws you have seen in those to make your argument more convincing.








Actually, most of the world either explicitly recognizes the armenian genocide or stays neutral to maintain good relations with Turkey. Only two states actively deny it; Turkey and Azerbaijan.

@R119 you casually dismiss evidence and say everything we give you is false. How can one have a dialogue with someone like you who refuses anything someone submits to them? Not only that, but you don't provide any evidence to your counter claims while we have graciously given ours. It seems to me that you are not debating in good faith.

Yeah, fantastic position - bring fake telegrams and tell people to prove that they are fake. xD
I dismiss your "evidence" because it's all subjective and fake.
You are all fanatics begging for reparations and I find all further discussions with you totally unproductive, over and out.
 

Kiron

Archivist
Global Moderator
WBNWM&B
Just stick with the historical events about Turkey. This is not a topic where people speculate things about Turkey or any other country. Giving arguments from valid historical sources and occasional arguments from nowadays Turkey is fine but speculating about the future is not something this topic meant for.
 
Just stick with the historical events about Turkey. This is not a topic where people speculate things about Turkey or any other country. Giving arguments from valid historical sources and occasional arguments from nowadays Turkey is fine but speculating about the future is not something this topic meant for.
Are you really trying to limit the debate because you are .... Turkish?
 

Kiron

Archivist
Global Moderator
WBNWM&B
I'm not limiting anything related to this topic's subject. Nothing at all. If you don't like my warning just because I'm Turkish that's another topic of course. If you want to speculate future horrors about Turkey this is just not the right subject*(edited). This is not a personal issue for me.
 
I'm not limiting anything related to this topic's subject. Nothing at all. If you don't like my warning just because I'm Turkish that's another topic of course. If you want to speculate future horrors about Turkey this is just not the right subject*(edited). This is not a personal issue for me.
I doubt that it's not personal. You went out of your way to try to limit criticism of modern Turkey in this thread and this is the second time you did so.
No one does this simply because he thinks it may be off topic (which it is not). I would be very careful in your place with that big red flag.
 

Kiron

Archivist
Global Moderator
WBNWM&B
That's your thinking however don't twist things to the way it's not. I'm not limiting anyone on this topic. You can give lots of arguments about the Ottoman, about the current government all day long no one including myself is limiting that. However, speculating about the future and deriving from the topic's subject is not something anyone would say "OK". This is just a common sense of forum culture. Hitting me with nationality or my stance is not going to help you. This is my final post btw. I believe I made my point clear.

Have a nice day.
 

Orion

Still Not Worthy
Global Moderator
M&BWBWF&SNW
Are you really trying to limit the debate because you are .... Turkish?
How about if I told you exactly what he said?

Speculation of what Turkey could do in the future is pointless and--in the context of this thread--likely to only rile Turks for no good reason. This topic is not a soapbox for people to go on anti-Turk tirades, it's about a specific historical event. Keep it between the lines.
 
How about if I told you exactly what he said?

Speculation of what Turkey could do in the future is pointless and--in the context of this thread--likely to only rile Turks for no good reason. This topic is not a soapbox for people to go on anti-Turk tirades, it's about a specific historical event. Keep it between the lines.
I disagree with that. Genocide denial now arguably creates a justification for future atrocities in times of upheaval. At the very least denial influences the current and future Turkish attitudes to its minorities and its neighbors.
Which is why it's important for Turkey to admit it, as argued here.
It's not a reach though. Turkey has always made people into enemies, and justified the mass murder of them through the "benefit of the state". They still treat Armenians as if they were nothing. And from what we've seen of history, when a country sees others as non-human, they tend to act on it. Which Turkey has done, though it isn't like the Armenians were Turkey's first and last victim. This has happened in their history multiple times, and they keep denying it all, while they profit off their victims, which continues to this day. When you deny something like this has happened, it breeds the mentality that it was okay or that the victims are some great evil trying to take Turkey down—which fuels yet another problem.

And nothing I said was offensive though? It isn't like I said all of the Turks are at fault for what their government did, that would be ridiculous. I made an effort to point out numerous times whom I was referring, and that is the Turkish government and its officials. I made a valid point that this sort of thing breeds the same ground that created that violence in the first place, and it is valid. Turkey demeans the Armenians importance by forbidding the mere discussion of what happened to them as anything but some freak accident—as if Armenians just lined up along the road and shot themselves in the head or locked themselves up by the thousands inside of homes and burned themselves alive.

If any Turk is offended by this very careful wording, it's their own fault.
 

Orion

Still Not Worthy
Global Moderator
M&BWBWF&SNW
Kiron has been very careful not to take a side on the issue in this thread, but you're quick to assume that he's coming out swinging as a nationalist and willing to paint him as a genocide denier. To me, this looks like you've found someone in a position of authority (which you explicitly drew attention to) that you're trying to goad into an emotional response. To what end, I can only imagine, but know that if you carry on with your misdirected righteousness then the response will come from me.

You should have directed it at this guy some more.
You are all fanatics begging for reparations and I find all further discussions with you totally unproductive, over and out.
Nobody engaging you has asked for reparations for themselves or Armenians. Yours is the classic knee-jerk response by anyone trying to dodge accountability the whole world over. Clearly those who claim to be wronged are just trying to steal from the accused! I know some folks around where I live that would get along famously with you. Are you into red hats, by any chance?
 
Kiron has been very careful not to take a side on the issue in this thread, but you're quick to assume that he's coming out swinging as a nationalist and willing to paint him as a genocide denier. To me, this looks like you've found someone in a position of authority (which you explicitly drew attention to) that you're trying to goad into an emotional response. To what end, I can only imagine, but know that if you carry on with your misdirected righteousness then the response will come from me.
That's a very strange reading of what I wrote. I saw a moderator trying to limit a debate by declaring parts that may be hard for Turks to digest as off topic. I warned against abuse of power that might have followed - dealing warnings for alleged off topic posting. When someone with a red flag says you are off topic, you can pretty much expect a follow up. (I already explained why the problem subject is not off topic at all which made moderator intervention questionable.)
This is not Turkey and we don't have to bend over backwards to avoid criticizing "Turkishness". Which is exactly the root of the problem explored in this thread.
I'm surprised you don't see this and even threaten with sanctions over "righteousness".
 
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