Armenian Genocide (?)
- 主题发起人 Janissary1453
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Turks conquer the Balkans, confiscate land, redistribute it to Turks or Turkified collaborators, enslave women en masse, kidnap boys, force convert and brainwash them to be the sultan's bodyguards. They enslave still hundreds of thousands more via slave raids of their Crimean proxies. Eventually, things go wrong for them, they lose a bunch of wars and almost all Turks are deported from the Balkans, because the non-Turks can't stand them after the hundreds years of the above treatment.
Somehow that is now sold as a proof of Ottoman benevolence and tolerance.
To be fair, wait, is it fair? Greeks were expelled from Asia Minor as well as this abandoned Greek village of Kayakoy shows.
I'm not saying the deportations were just. But the fact that very few people in the Balkans speak Turkish today is not because of Turkish benevolence, let alone fondness for or promotion of pre-existing cultures and languages.
Also, "nobody" in Africa speaks English or French as their first language, other than the English whites in SA.
Also, "nobody" in Africa speaks English or French as their first language, other than the English whites in SA.
Flin Flon
Ok, so you recognize that the Ottomans subjected people to pretty horrific conditions by today's standards. Taking an exceptionalistic and apologetic approach to your country's wrong-doings dangerously enforces the notion that your country has never really done that much wrong. So, the wrong-doings are not sufficiently scrutinized, and if normalized permits repetition of the wrong-doing (this happens even today). We aren't antagonizing Turkey's stance on the subject for the hell of it, or to make ourselves seem better than you. Europeans are responsible for the most deadly wars in the world, but recognizing that it was a mistake that should never be repeated paved a way to the largest human and social rights expansion in history to the benefit of (almost) everyone. Just own up to it.
Hi Flin Flon
I believe post-colonial opression is still going on, i dont think writing or saying we want to make world better works when your country's minimum wage is 100 times higher than a past-colony. Your governments paint a picture like that to dont feel responsible/or angry for the past situations or current ones. Not saying i dont share the ideal of making world better, but currently no political power has it as an aim. I know your intent is good and thanks, EU liberalism is for itself.
About the event. I am unhappy the event is surpessed and not faced in Turkey. Americans name the event as Great Disaster. We should call like that instead of deportation and reminisce the event for all sides. Muslim, Armenians all suffered from the event. But it is probably not done because both-sides still hate each other, like there is Hocalı Massacre still many years after the event.
I believe post-colonial opression is still going on, i dont think writing or saying we want to make world better works when your country's minimum wage is 100 times higher than a past-colony. Your governments paint a picture like that to dont feel responsible/or angry for the past situations or current ones. Not saying i dont share the ideal of making world better, but currently no political power has it as an aim. I know your intent is good and thanks, EU liberalism is for itself.
About the event. I am unhappy the event is surpessed and not faced in Turkey. Americans name the event as Great Disaster. We should call like that instead of deportation and reminisce the event for all sides. Muslim, Armenians all suffered from the event. But it is probably not done because both-sides still hate each other, like there is Hocalı Massacre still many years after the event.
Not to derail this thread but, it's even somewhat of a stretch to say Byzantium = Rome on the basis of governmental continuity and the cultural, religious and institutional differences. I'd say a foreign culture with a foreign religion magnifies the issue x10 and is about as tenuous a claim of roman-ness as Russia or the HRE.
Flin Flon
@HUMMAN It's true that people, on account of having enough resources, have the time and education to think of more just societies. Poverty is a strong driver for a lot of ****, but not an excuse for permitting apologetic attitudes for (past) wrong-doings. If anything, if unchecked, it will in combination with poverty exacerbate the problems. These things are circular. In which case you should approach the problem in a multi-faceted fashion (easier said than done, I know). You can't deny that Turkey's exceptionalistic attitude has negative economic and social implications (distancing itself from trading partners, passing questionable legislation among others). Solutions present themselves by recognizing problems, not denying or excusing them.
I can't deny that the European public and politicians alike try to separate themselves from their colonial past. We shouldn't. The moral of my story isn't that Europe is perfect. It's that you own up to **** if you want **** to improve.
I agree with the second part of your post. I think we're looking at things wrong when we start playing the balming game. The bottom-line here is that we, to our best ability, try to reprimand the harm or prevent it from happening again (I subscribe to a 'least-cost avoider' idea of justice. Justice should serve to alleviate problems. Not rigidly punish people (even if they are at blame) and in the process do more harm by punishing them.). Characterizing the event as a disaster, including for Muslims, could be a step in the right direction.
I can't deny that the European public and politicians alike try to separate themselves from their colonial past. We shouldn't. The moral of my story isn't that Europe is perfect. It's that you own up to **** if you want **** to improve.
I agree with the second part of your post. I think we're looking at things wrong when we start playing the balming game. The bottom-line here is that we, to our best ability, try to reprimand the harm or prevent it from happening again (I subscribe to a 'least-cost avoider' idea of justice. Justice should serve to alleviate problems. Not rigidly punish people (even if they are at blame) and in the process do more harm by punishing them.). Characterizing the event as a disaster, including for Muslims, could be a step in the right direction.
The thread is about everything but genocide anyway. East rome never called themselves byzantium. It's a modern term. Some rulers saw themselves as heirs for legitamacy; and on cultural level music, food, arhitecture are continium of east rome. What i inform u is not unknown in historical literature.
And the pattern a nomad force adapts to their occupation is a common theme from first city states to Franks etc. Anatolian culture is fusion of central asia and previous greek culture.
@Flin Flon
You are right.
And the pattern a nomad force adapts to their occupation is a common theme from first city states to Franks etc. Anatolian culture is fusion of central asia and previous greek culture.
@Flin Flon
You are right.
I am aware that Byzantium is anachronistic, but is also shorter than 'Late Medieval Eastern Roman Empire'. The turks have adopted many mediterranean traits but they don't speak greek or latin, nor are they christian or hellenistic in faith, they are their own thing. It's the historic equivalent of saying you're 1/16th Cherokee.
Imagine if you will that we displaced the entire population of the Korean peninsula and moved all french people in there. Would you call them Korean, even if they ate Korean food, and listened to Korean music, and built Korean buildings? I would not.
Imagine if you will that we displaced the entire population of the Korean peninsula and moved all french people in there. Would you call them Korean, even if they ate Korean food, and listened to Korean music, and built Korean buildings? I would not.
That's the point. The ERE at that time was primarily greek and christian, the turks were neither. Half of europe have seen themselves as the heirs to Rome at one point or another, does not mean their claim had any legitimacy. Rome as an entity was completely snuffed out by 1475, never again has any empire of roman culture, roman religion and roman institutions existed again, any 'successor' beyond that is their own thing and just roman in name doing some roman cosplay.
Edit: That's just my opinion, anyways.
Edit: That's just my opinion, anyways.
最后编辑:
How many Turks get killed during the decline, uprising of some Puppet Nations, towards the Fall of the Ottoman Empire? I assume you all think they lived in Anatolia...Oh no these were all part of the Big Turkish War and was all glorious Victories.
Most funny Part in the 21th Century is the Fact that some States which was before a more or a little Part of the Ottoman Empire still blaming them for their failure today how it comes...
Most funny Part in the 21th Century is the Fact that some States which was before a more or a little Part of the Ottoman Empire still blaming them for their failure today how it comes...
Sry for me is not English such a important Language but atleast i can communicate a less which "Whatevers" like you.
First of all there is not such a term like "Armenian genocide" - something that never existes before and after what even happened during that time.
由板主最后编辑:
