Armenian Genocide (?)

Do you believe?

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    选票: 208 61.7%
  • No

    选票: 129 38.3%

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Wellenbrecher 说:
Let's maybe not go down the gay rights route as well, you'll not do yourself any favours :razz:
In any case, potential uninformed populist BS reactions in another country should not properly play a major role in something like this. I still say you and in fact the Turkish public in general are being played here.
It's a godsend for Erdogan and he'll exploit this to hell and back for a long while to come. Or at least it wouldn't surprise me if he did.
An accusation of homofobia could make my day but it seems I'm not going to get it today.
Well, all I did was expressing my concerns for Armenians. It would be much better if some more people could point me out benefits of these resolutions for Armenian people, after all this discussion, I still think this resolution actually harmed the Armenians and I'm not able to see any potential benefits of it.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14683850701566419
Almalexia 说:
Seriously tho, if their reaction to being called on their denial of the Armenian genocide is to start another Armenian genocide, they deserve to be invaded. I'm sorry.
You cannot be so simplistic.
 
Who dun deed it bestest? Yurop or Amriga? Can the Ameribuns score a mandate in Turkey?
 
Attempting a genocide does not merit international intervention? I'm sorry, what?  :lol: Good lord.
 
Calradianın Bilgesi 说:
An accusation of homofobia could make my day but it seems I'm not going to get it today.
Well, all I did was expressing my concerns for Armenians. It would be much better if some more people could point me out benefits of these resolutions for Armenian people, after all this discussion, I still think this resolution actually harmed the Armenians and I'm not able to see any potential benefits of it.
It's not about benefits. Like I said at the start, it's a question of politics and morals. You don't NOT do the right thing because people that are demonstrably wrong don't want you to do it. Similar to how you don't give in to terrorist demands after an attack. Ideally.

Also I'm sure there also was a bit of spite attached to the start of this as Erdogan is a major scapegoat right now in public perception here. If someone had brought this up five years ago it would've silently been brushed aside and realpolitik would've won the day with everyone nodding their heads in a sad way, lamenting the loss of life and nothing else.
Now though? After the self-imposed re-ignition of the Kurdish question that isn't a Kurdish question anymore according to Erdogan, after the Böhmermann lawsuit? After the frankly disgusting EU-Turkey deal about refugees? MPs are people too, and not above spite.

There are mistakes in this post I might edit later, but I gotta get to work, soprry :razz:
 
It's not about benefits. Like I said at the start, it's a question of politics and morals. You don't NOT do the right thing because people that are demonstrably wrong don't want you to do it. Similar to how you don't give in to terrorist demands after an attack. Ideally.
I don't know how can I be any more clear, it's not about caring about the offence Turkish people feel. It should be all about how to achieve a desired change in Turkey. If MPs voting on an Armenian Genocide resolution do not care about improving the lives of Armenians in Turkey, that resolution is honestly not sincere at all. Countries act in certain ways to change the situation in a country. They especially do it for countries where there are significant human rights violations. An increase of human rights violation in another country has been an important consideration in legislation, and it should be.
Also I'm sure there also was a bit of spite attached to the start of this as Erdogan is a major scapegoat right now in public perception here. If someone had brought this up five years ago it would've silently been brushed aside and realpolitik would've won the day with everyone nodding their heads in a sad way, lamenting the loss of life and nothing else.
Now though? After the self-imposed re-ignition of the Kurdish question that isn't a Kurdish question anymore according to Erdogan, after the Böhmermann lawsuit? After the frankly disgusting EU-Turkey deal about refugees? MPs are people too, and not above spite.
That was what I meant by "the resolutions are often politically motivated" earlier.
 
Let us not forget that Turkey is not the only nation impacted here. Again, to play into Ancalimon's sad paranoia, this gives the nation of Armenia more legitimacy to push the issue should it come up in an international court and potentially obtain compensation for lives lost, and land still in within Turkish borders. If Turkey wants to keep digging itself into a hole in the ground, it only serves their interests. In the view of Armenians in Armenia, and diaspora Armenians throughout the world, Germany's statement is absolutely a positive thing. I know my boss was overjoyed when he heard about it.
 
Almalexia 说:
Let us not forget that Turkey is not the only nation impacted here. Again, to play into Ancalimon's sad paranoia, this gives the nation of Armenia more legitimacy to push the issue should it come up in an international court and potentially obtain compensation for lives lost, and land still in within Turkish borders. If Turkey wants to keep digging itself into a hole in the ground, it only serves their interests. In the view of Armenians in Armenia, and diaspora Armenians throughout the world, Germany's statement is absolutely a positive thing. I know my boss was overjoyed when he heard about it.
Yeah, that could be a thing, but I believe Turkish public acceptance is still an important condition. Turkey hasn't paid any of the reparations it owes over the occupation of Cyprus yet. Public acceptance often facilitates these processes.
 
Under the current government we're never going to get to that point, however. The political context needs to change before that can occur. And unfortunately its going to take more than issue avoidance or confrontation on the Armenian Genocide to change that.
 
There are already internal dynamics changing the political context. All the people in the topic take public opinion as a static thing, and most believe that a change of public opinion must be forced from outside. All the changes in Turkey that I've pointed out in the topic were just ignored. Government ended the prohibition on the recognition of Armenian genocide in 2008. Many popular figures campaigned for apology of 1915 in 2008. Erdogan issued an official condolence in 2014. That's not enough, but 6 years of free debate and internal efforts achieved much more than all the resolutions until 2008. Even during EU accession talks(which lost importance after 2007), when genocide recognition was a de facto condition for membership, Turkey didn't progress that much. Public opinion is not static, it changes with dialogue and healthy debate, and these two conditions are damaged by genocide resolutions.
 
I think you will find things have changed in Turkey since 2014, and that wasnt caused by outside resolutions.
 
Isn't talk of positive change in Turkey pretty much moot until Erdogan is gotten rid of? Because there's no way Turkey's going anywhere but backwards with him and his cronies in control.
 
Areze 说:
Isn't talk of positive change in Turkey pretty much moot until Erdogan is gotten rid of? Because there's no way Turkey's going anywhere but backwards with him and his cronies in control.
It is never all black or white. Turkey's scores in Freedom House started to deteriorate before 2014, but a progress on a specific issue can be achieved during a period of increasing limitations on freedoms. Some change can happen "despite" the government. I accept that it's worse than 2014 now, but it can still be called better than 2005, and the progress generally has ups and downs. And this organic process is much more beneficial in my view, because it's result of the dialogue between Armenians and Turkish people.
 
Sour losers and it won't help them either.
Their candidate realised that this wasn't a loss, it was the first time to got close to 50% support in an election. He said as much right after the results became public.

Calradianın Bilgesi 说:
It's not about benefits. Like I said at the start, it's a question of politics and morals. You don't NOT do the right thing because people that are demonstrably wrong don't want you to do it. Similar to how you don't give in to terrorist demands after an attack. Ideally.
I don't know how can I be any more clear, it's not about caring about the offence Turkish people feel. It should be all about how to achieve a desired change in Turkey. If MPs voting on an Armenian Genocide resolution do not care about improving the lives of Armenians in Turkey, that resolution is honestly not sincere at all. Countries act in certain ways to change the situation in a country. They especially do it for countries where there are significant human rights violations. An increase of human rights violation in another country has been an important consideration in legislation, and it should be.
Also I'm sure there also was a bit of spite attached to the start of this as Erdogan is a major scapegoat right now in public perception here. If someone had brought this up five years ago it would've silently been brushed aside and realpolitik would've won the day with everyone nodding their heads in a sad way, lamenting the loss of life and nothing else.
Now though? After the self-imposed re-ignition of the Kurdish question that isn't a Kurdish question anymore according to Erdogan, after the Böhmermann lawsuit? After the frankly disgusting EU-Turkey deal about refugees? MPs are people too, and not above spite.
That was what I meant by "the resolutions are often politically motivated" earlier.
Alright, got a bit of time.
To elaborate my point a bit.
Exactly it's political. But not in the seemingly malignant way you seemed to imply all the time.
Nobody really gives a ****. Or more civilised, I doubt anyone of them actually genuinely cares apart from some weird folks who care or pretend to care about everything anyway and are thus un believable in the first place. It's about profile, the MPs' and the country's, about the fact that a good part of the civilised world already recognises it, about the spite thing with Erdogan I mentioned earlier and also in spite of Merkel.
The current image of her suffered a good deal because she was seen as giving in to Erdogan all the time (again, the refugee thing and Böhmermann), so forcing her into a position where she has to take a clear stance against her best interest was probably a factor as well.

Because yeah, Germany gained nothing from this. At the same time however, this does nothing to Turkey either.
It's Erdogan and his highly amusing fits of rage, it's his ministers being his willing croneys in spreading the names and faces and addresses of German-Turkish MPs and are thus contributing to the death threats and the fact that a good many of them are now under police protection that are making this into a problem in the first place. Or rather we should put it as "problem", as they're technically benefiting from it.
In one of your first reactions you said how this means nothing. Exactly! It doesn't.

Hell, the MPs that pushed for it basically admitted all this by omission of the "change" bit. They just said they couldn't stand letting the denying part have their say without saying anything else. And some more meaningless blurb of how they hope there could be a talk to clear things up between the two sides. That statement means bloody nothing, politics talk.
The "improving" bit was brought up by you first, IIRC.
 
Wellenbrecher 说:
Resolution doesn't harm Turkey, its Turkish people who decide to react this way, Turkey should grow up.
I don't think this moralistic line of thought helps at all. Yes, it would be better if Turkey could recognise genocide today, but it doesn't. Yes, admitting genocide would also be more beneficial. Iranian people should grow up and shouldn't have unrealistic perceptions of today. At the end of the day, all of this wishful-thinking achieves nothing. Yes, neglecting the resolution could be a more rational solution, but unfortunately, historical dynamics force people to act in a certain way. As a result of all of this past of occupation, events leading to foreign distrust and other historical dynamics, this ideological topography creates exactly the same results. The Turkish people use this moralistic understanding of social events too, "Kurdish people shouldn't have started to terrorism, they should grow up and stop killing people" some say. Yea, it would be better if PKK didn't exist, but it does, and the moralistic point of view helps us to achieve NOTHING. It has ZERO answer to "how the social change can be possible" question. From the beginning, I explained how these resolutions change the Turkish public in an undesirable way. And the only answer I got to all of the mechanisms I've provided was "Well, Turkey shouldn't have reacted this way". But sorry, it does, it did since 20+ years, and resolutions make it worse. Societies do not defy the history, they act according to it.

More on the politically motivated thing:
Yes, I agree with you, there was some anti-Turkish sentiment in Bundestag and the resolution was part of a message to say **** off to Erdogan. These resolutions are often a result of the deteriorating relations. Yes, they don't weaken Turkey in a significant way, but they're often used as a taunt, that's the political motivation of them. It shouldn't be a coincidence that last two years have seen many more resolutions. "Politically motivated" doesn't mean evil in my opinion, as long as it has good consequences, but it doesn't mean praiseworthy either.
 
Calradianın Bilgesi 说:
Úlfheðinn 说:
Secondly, I mean that's the crux of the issue, like sure we can say short term it has lead to anger in Turkey, but has that actually lead to life being worse for Armenians? How will it affect Armenians in the near future? How will it effect Armenians at a later time? How will Germany recognizing the Armenian Genocide affect other nations? How might this in turn affect Turkey in the future?
The absence of statistical evidence shouldn't keep us from reasoning about the consequences though. Widespread racist rhetoric, increased credibility for nationalists and unacceptable racist statements from officials without any condemnation from the public. It's plausible to suggest that nationalists benefit and Armenians lose from this environment.

It's plausible to suggest that the Germany, the West, or other countries not pandering to Turkey may benefit the Armenians.

Plenty of things are plausible, but without data it's hard to go much further than "I think that this was a good/bad idea" and "Interesting, I think the opposite."

Calradianın Bilgesi 说:
And the only answer I got to all of the mechanisms I've provided was "Well, Turkey shouldn't have reacted this way". But sorry, it does, it did since 20+ years, and resolutions make it worse. Societies do not defy the history, they act according to it.

I don't think you've been reading most of the replies if that's your conclusion.

That's like me arguing that: "All you've done is try to shift blame away from Turkey."
 
It's plausible to suggest that the Germany, the West, or other countries not pandering to Turkey may benefit the Armenians.

Plenty of things are plausible, but without data it's hard to go much further than "I think that this was a good/bad idea" and "Interesting, I think the opposite."
Opinion polls are not the only type of the data possible. Foreign pressure has 20 years of failure, and the local campaigns and protest of last 8 years, attract more support each year with some concrete results. These are all important indicators. The resolutions also do trigger an outrage damaging for Armenians. We do know this outrage is harmful for Armenians, because we know that increasing hate speech and banalisation of racism in a society are harmful things. I still have some suspicions, because genocide resolutions may be triggering a counteracting dynamic which can improve Turkish public opinion on the issue. The problem is, I don't know what it may be and no one in this topic has suggested what it may be, and the mere possibility of "there may be some unvisible counteracting force" isn't sufficient for me. I'm sure that hate speech and racism are damaging, especially when they're widespread and when they're internalised by the common people.
I don't think you've been reading most of the replies if that's your conclusion.
My reasoning was
1. The resolution was damaging
2. Parliaments shouldn't pass damaging resolutions
No one engaged with the first proposition by explaining in detail on how the resolution can have good consequences, especially in the context of Turkish public opinion. The first proposition is doubtful according to you, but this doubt is not in a sense "We cannot weight its harms against its benefits accurately, so we can't be sure.". It's in the sense of "These harms may not have lasting consequences, so we're still not sure if that's harmful. You offer no reason for how foreign pressure can succesfully compel a sovereign country to recognize the genocide, despite widerspread public denial. I don't even know any example of it. People generally engaged with the second proposition by claiming that i.Its harmful consequences aren't so important ii. Turkey is responsible of its harmful consequences.
 
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