Armagan: A Suggestion/Discuission

[Cleitan]

What I hope to see for Mount and Blade is a much more powerful and easy to use editor. A GUI editor to be more precise. Like the ones used in Morrowind or even in Neverwinter Nights. With this sort of editor anyone can pick it up and spend more time building then tweaking silly text files. I do understand that a GUI-Editor is alot of work especially considering your game was not built around this editor as those other games. BUT, if there was an editor using Drop down Boxes, Text Fields, More like a Windows based application instead of a text editor, with the 3d enviroment being manipulated through a rendering view like in Morrowind, Neverwinter Nights or even like Blender or 3dsmax, models simply being dragged and dropped around in the scene for ease of use.

With such an objective and simplified, but no less powerful editor the community WILL grow. Its a fact that there is a huge amount of gamers out here who simply love the power availible in such game editors who personally do not prefer the specific game setting provided therefor will not buy this game as it is. However with such an editor availible the community WOULD grow as these other 'modders', alot from the Elder Scrolls and Neverwinter Communities would jump at the chance to pay for this new combat/action game editor so they can bring their worlds to life in a new and different way. The Neverwinter Nights editor is extremely restricted to old DnD rules which continously frustrates its modding community and the Elder Scrolls Editor has no action enabled! There is aso that "Realm Crafter" just recently made which allows payer to build and run their own Mmorpgs. BUT there is no such thing as an Action RPG builder! Now of course if this isnt what you want then it certainly isnt what I want for you and your 'company'. BUT if the idea is, considerable to you here is the forum discussion on this topic.

 

[dablade]

I would like it too.
I agree, the modding community would grow much faster with an editor like that.

 

[guspav]

sounds good but it would be a ton of extra work

 

[dablade]

sounds good but it would be a ton of extra work

Yes, probably it would...
But once it was made, maybe it would also help developers work a lot.

 

[Volkier]

Although I would agree, personally I think that putting Armagan's name into the topic name, in hopes that he would be more temped to read / reply is somewhat a rude act. He already reads as many suggestions as possible, and every suggestion is just as, if not more important, than what anyone else suggests. Ultimately, it would be up to him to decide whether he should reply / take the suggestion into account since it is his game. Just my oppinion..

 

[Cleitan]

Rude? Including his name in the title? Ummm, Not quite. Armagan's name was included in the title to show that the topic was directed at and created FOR Armagan to read. Most topics are aimed at the general community asking a question that anyone can answer or showing off something, This topic on the other hand is aimed directly at Armagan himself as well it doesnt matter if anybody sees it, as long as he does. Which is the reasonf or this topic's existance... so, rude? No. I wish not to TEMPT him into reading it, but to choose to read it of his own free will ::Rollseyes :: . No, my "Suggestions" is not more important then anyone elses, but mine is directly directly at Armagan.

 

[Volkier]

Ok I probably misunderstood so apologies.. However aren't ALL suggestions directed to Armagan? I just fear that all of the future threads would have "Armagan please read" infront lol, which would actually cause the exact opposite ::\

 

[Cleitan]

Well, some suggestions may be addressed by the moderators and community members, such as a suggestion for multiplayer. Most of us are able to properly answer this "Not until Mount And Blade 2". However my 'ideas' can only be properly addressed by Armagan himself since there has been no information given to the extent of the editor that will be made availible.

I do not imply that Armagan owes me anything or that he must read my idea, I am just posting it here so that the entire community may discuss their opinions on the subject and so that Armagan himself may if he pleases, read through and comment on my 'dream'.

By the way, it isnt "Armagan, please read" its "Armagan" as one would address a letter, it isnt a petition or demand, just an idea meant for the eyes of Armagan and open to the public for discussion.

 

[Kelpo]

Well, some suggestions may be addressed by the moderators and community members, such as a suggestion for multiplayer. Most of us are able to properly answer this "Not until Mount And Blade 2". However my 'ideas' can only be properly addressed by Armagan himself since there has been no information given to the extent of the editor that will be made availible.

Of course they may be, but deep down, each and every suggestion on this forum is meant for the big man to read. What point would there be to suggest something to people that have nothing to do with the development of the game?

By the way, it isnt "Armagan, please read" its "Armagan" as one would address a letter, it isnt a petition or demand, just an idea meant for the eyes of Armagan and open to the public for discussion.

The way I see it, that applies to every other suggestion thread as well.

 

[jrawlings]

Back to the heart of the suggestion... better GUI for modding.

I say NO. I think mods are great and all, but I bought this product for Mount&Blade. Armagan spent the bulk of the last MAJOR update to the game creating Mod Tools, specifically for the mod community to make cool mods. Now at v0.7x, I don't want Armagan spending the next major update or two making an editor or more "mod" related items.

True, I do play mods on this game... Mag7 and I will be playing LOTR last days when AW gets it a bit more polished... but that isn't the primary reason why I bought this game.

Since M&B is roughly 70% done (based on verson nomenclature), I'd rather see Armagan do some the following:

1. Make a storyline - it doesn't need to be open-ended or closed... I just want a story that progresses where my actions mean something!
2. Enhance overland map gameplay:
....a. improved AI of parties at a minimum
....b. A dynamic map depicting the current state of the war with player's and NPC party actions actually affecting the map (in terms of faction territory owned for example)
3. Improved questing
....a. quests with more than one ending
....b. more complex quests than the current FedEx or kill that guy type.
4. Sieges - we all want them for sure!
5. Improved utility of some skills (e.g. tracking, shield, spotting, to name a few)
6. Improved command and control of units on the battlefield
7. Finalize game balance (IMHO, I don't think ANY game balancing should happen until the game is >90% done)

While making a Morrowind-style construction set may sound cool in principle, in practice the game needs much more than that right now, IMHO.

 

[Archonsod]

I would be inclined to agree with jrawlings.

Lets get the game up and running before worrying about further mod enhancements.

 

[Orion]

When most people think of modding M&B, they think that it would be a complete waste of time (which, in my point of view, it is [im thinking long-term, people]) seeing as how the game is only, as jrawlings said, ~70% done. Many more updates and changes will come along, and the way the mods are made will have to be changed as well.

Most people wouldn't even think of starting a mod, unless it was just for fun or practice. Most of the serious mods for this game are very serious, full-sized mods. Thinking in terms of EA, Rockstar, and other major video game publishers (I know, lots of you hate EA) they release the completed game, and THEN the mod tools. However, Taleworlds decided that they would release the mod tools before the game is completed, probably because there is already a large modding community. Most people don't even see what a game looks like - aside from trailers and previews - before it is released. Armagan made the decision that he would release M&B in a beta version, so that the community could test it before they spend the money on something they have only seen. In many ways, this is much better. There are no hidden things which we don't know about, no features that are promised which aren't really in the game, etc. etc. We don't have a box saying "Contains Advanced Battle Command System!" when in fact (at the moment) we only have 5 commands (Stay Here, Follow Me, Charge, Mount, Dismount.) We have none of the bull which we would get from large companies and developers.

So it seems to some people that, instead of just these unofficial mod tools and the stuff that Armagan released, a full-fledged editor should be released before the game is even completed. "I mean, why not? Other editors were released before the game was even ~70% done! Why not the full-fledged editor?" Because a complete editor would edit all of the features and objects and maps and stuff that are in a game. At the moment, we don't have all of the stuff in the game. Only ~70% of it.

So please, be patient. The full-fledged editor will be released when it is released. That time is just not now. So, as I said before, please, just be patient.

 

[Ryuta]

Hm, I was about to agre with Cleitan but Orion's argument is very reasonable. Hope it would be true.

By the way, welcomeback, Cleitan. and I noticed your avatar changed its head. Is it yours?

 

[jrawlings]

I can think of two games (I'm sure there are more) where the mod community was thought of in advance during game development... In that care was taken to provide a game editor for the modding community. I'm thinking Morrowind and Neverwinter Nights. Both of these games shipped with a fully functional editor. In the case of Morrowind, the folks at Bethesda claimed they made the gameworld using the construction set, implying that the set was made first, then the game... not sure if that was the case for NWN.

Anyway, back to M&B. If modding was paramount to this game, wouldn't Armagan have already made such an editor? Like in version v0.1? Obviously, Armagan has respect for the mod community (as we all do, myself included), and that was shown in devoting the v0.6 to v0.7 upgrade in order to make mod tools. Now, looking at the mods that are currently available, most of which have been started and some completed prior to even these tools being released suggests that the mod community is perfectly capable of generating high quality mods without an editor. These are the serious folks you talk about. The ones that make models and do textures for a hobby, those that have programming skill and know 2 or 3 languages. Those folks don't NEED an editor to make a mod. Play Mag7 or LOTR: the last days, take a look at the props mod, the fish mod...

It's folks like ME who need an editor to feel comfortable making my own mods to a game. I would be the most casual of modders, I'd tinker with the editor, make some funny centaur looking creature and be done with it. Granted, an editor would make modders' lives much easier than the tools provide now (I'm guessing because I don't know what the tools look like), but the majority of folks who play M&B will not use such an editor beyond what I've described for myself.

So, why not please the bulk of your players by focusing your efforts to completing the game? After all, the bulk of your players, like myself, start loading in mods only when the vanilla game has lost its appeal.

Let me make myself clear. I LOVE the mods for M&B and I GREATLY appreciate the efforts of those who have made mods (Ancientwanker in particular) and those who are currently making some very interesting mods (Wild West Mod, Onin an Ran). I applaud their efforts and am extremely thankful that they have put in such hard work to make some really neat additions to this game. What I'd like to see more than anything, however, is what the completed M&B GAME will turn out to be. Let the editor come after that.

 

[Cleitan]

Yeah I changed the head and it is now my real head, :p

Well you do understand that if a full fledged and powerful editor was released, there would be many COMPLETE games with balance, storylines, quests etc, being built by the week by the community. As it is now there is, what 3 people working on the game? But with such an editor anyone could work on it! It would be finished much faster in my opinion with the focus more on the community games.

Besides even with it being Beta version any MODs made should be compatable with the newer version of the game unles sthe change something extremely drastic. The transition from 7.0-7.11 was mod surivivable. Not only would it be practice but alot of things, Models, Sounds, Textures, DIalogue, Quests, Items, Factions and mostly everything should be compatable with all following versions. Even if a few components had to be scrapped most of it woulod be able to survive. The Neverwinter Nights and Morrowind editors have both had numerous huge overhauls in teh game's engine since release and the older MODs still worked perfectly with the newer versions.

If the editor Im thinking of was released next month, there would be many working BETA total conversions out by the following month. As it is now with only 3 people working on the entire game in all of its aspects, This game wont be finished until 2007 at least. But with the Official guys only focusing on the maqin engine instead of game content things would get done alot faster without sacrificing quality.

The bulk of the Morrowind and NWN community are Modder/players, and without those powerful editors the game's community would have died out YEARS ago in both cases. No game lasts as long as those two without that sort of ease of modability. Even the Unreal Tournament games, they would not be a fraction as popular as they are if not for the modding tools availible to them.

 

[jrawlings]

The bulk of the Morrowind and NWN community are Modder/players, and without those powerful editors the game's community would have died out YEARS ago in both cases. No game lasts as long as those two without that sort of ease of modability. Even the Unreal Tournament games, they would not be a fraction as popular as they are if not for the modding tools availible to them.

True. But Modders probably accounted for less than 0.01% of the total sales of those games. M&B has already proven to be quite moddable in its current state/build. No need to invest more in that until the game is done.

Here's a question. Let's say Armagan releases tomorrow the dream editor you've been waiting for and like you said, folks would have complete conversions done before Armagan releases M&B 1.0 in 2007. What would be Armagan's motivation to even complete M&B?

I played both NWN and Morrowind, and dabbled in the mods for both of those games... as a more casual player, I tend to dabble in mods, not play them exclusively. While I took joy in playing Mag7 and will also enjoy LOTR, I am most interested in seeing what the finished M&B product is.

 

[Cleitan]

MOST of the sales, Much more then 0.01%

 

[Sir Huggles]

I would seriously doubt that MOST of the sales of morrowind were due to the editor, considering LOTS and LOTS of people bought it on xbox which has NO mod capabilities.

 

[Cleitan]

I didnt say most bought it for the editor, but alot less. Perhaps Most wouldnt have bought it if not for its editor.

The Main reason the PC version sold was for its editor, if not the Xbox one wouldnt have ever even been released.

 

[Archonsod]

I didnt say most bought it for the editor, but alot less. Perhaps Most wouldnt have bought it if not for its editor.

The Main reason the PC version sold was for its editor, if not the Xbox one wouldnt have ever even been released.

Everyone I know who bought Morrowind did so because they enjoyed Daggerfall. A lot of PC sales were also down to people being unhappy with the bugs in the Xbox version, or wanting the expansions (pre-GOTY). Add on to this the fact that most reviews were favourable, often scoring it close to 90%. Bethesda themselves have stated that less than 30% of Morrowind players actually bother with Mods, which would argue against the inclusion of the editor being a primary sale reason.
If you look at the modding community for both NWN and Morrowind, what you'll see is a small hardcore group who continually release mods. Others release perhaps a single mod, often of the kind described by jrawlings - a single alteration or addition (certainly more of an addition than a mod)
You also seem to forget that both editors are primarily level design tools. Most of the released 'mods' amount to nothing more than a new quest or a new map. This is probably down to the fact that you need third party software to truly add to the game, something only dedicated modders usually have (or want).
You are probably correct in stating NWN owes most of its continued lifespan to the modding community behind it. However, this is down to its multiplayer rather than the actual mods themselves. It was always designed primarily to be a method of emulating a pen & paper RPG online, with the campaign added as an afterthought (originally it was going to be multiplayer only). Take away the multiplayer and I doubt people would still be playing it, similar story with the mods.
On the other hand, Morrowind has a different reason for still being played. Its an open-ended exploration game which in theory has no ending. The fact that there is so much to do is what is keeping it going. There are still many people (me included) who bought the game on release and have yet to bother with the main plot. M&B is closer to Morrowind in this respect than anything else.
The end result is that it is not the Mods alone which keep these games going, it is the open ended gameplay. NWN needed the mod tools to achieve this (there's only so many times you can run through the official campaigns) while both Morrowind and M&B already have it.