Are we wrong or are the devs wrong

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Revverie


First of all, you guys should watch this video about feedback. It raises a lot of questions on how should devs proceed with player feedback.

In one of those subjects, it talks about how some small part of gamers are very vocal about something they don't like, but that sometimes they just represent a small percentage of people that play the game, meaning that changing game's features to please some players might not be the best because it might have a worse impact in the end, and it would go against the devs vision.
But in this situation are we truly wrong? Are we a small percentage of players that are complaining? Is the dev neglecting the negative feedback nonsensical or does it make sense after all? What do you think about it? I open the debate, and I want to invite devs working on the game and see what they think, you know, they should give a direct response instead of avoiding the subject.
 

WMorton

Sergeant
WBWF&SNW
At this point we are the majority, atleast on Skirmish. I think alot of those on TDM are casual players who just show up here or there just to bs and relax. But many of the people on these forums love this game franchise and simply disagree with the direction it has been taken. I myself am from NW and have participated in the multiplayer community since 2013 and been in groups since 2015. I know what brings players to this game whether it be casual players or organized clans. People want to feel the battlefield experience, they want teamwork and they want a smooth experience. The current gamemodes might accomplish these objectives separately such as the large fights in tdm and siege, and the teamwork aspect of skirmish and captain however I think that it doesn't hit the right tune for anybody. Clans don't want to be limited to a 6v6 and pubs don't want to get raped every time they look for a new experience. The community has consistently told the Devs what needs to be implemented, we want Duel, Battle, many want loadout system, improved combat system without the needless **** like crushthrough, and we want community owned servers. At the end of the day we are requesting that either the Devs work with us and bring our dream game that we have supported for over a decade to life or give us and the modders the tools and servers to do it ourselves.
 

RDP

Sergeant
Theres no personality to the game, everyone looks the same because of classes, no personal banners or gear choices, no progression. They just havent given us a reason to play the game more than a week, thats a dev problem not connecting with young gamers these days. The veterans probably dont care about that stuff, they just want good combat and this really complex impossible to add gamemode called battle, but they cant do that without young players to populate it.
Also they are funded by the government there so they have no reason to finish the game or even be successful since there are no outside investors pushing them, they just do enough to keep getting paid.
 

Sundeki

Sergeant Knight at Arms
M&BWB
We would be the ones out of touch if we were whinging and complaining and the (multiplayer part of the) game was loved and well played by a reasonable playerbase. It isn't. The same complaints appear over, and over, and over, everywhere this game is discussed, in competitive circles and in casual circles.

The most relevant point made in that video isn't the first point about a vocal minority, but the fourth point about "Create a conversation between Developers and Players". TaleWorlds never bothered to create that dialogue. We were always talked at, not to. They never explained the actual reasons as to why they decided to reinvent the wheel, and when they gave their "reasons", almost nobody took them seriously because they all sounded like half assed excuses rather than reasons, and were promptly analyzed, deconstructed, and in some cases outright debunked. When the community gave very detailed responses on the issue of the class system, and proposed solutions that would resolve the problems TaleWorlds highlighted with the previous system, without taking everything else away, TaleWorlds indirectly admitted they couldn't argue against them, and just straight up stopped posting in the now dozens of threads, with hundreds/thousands of posts, on the issue.

The game that the developers, or at the very least the decision makers, want to make, is largely antithetical to the game that players want to play. The playerbase isn't going to play something it doesn't want to play, making the playerbase an immovable object. TaleWorlds has to bend and give ground on these issues, or the talented modding community built up around these games will give people want they want, and the result will be a stagnant pool of tribalistic parallel playerbases, and a dead base game, which benefits nobody, especially since attracting new players to the mods will be difficult without a reasonable foundation. Unfortunately this seems to be the only outcome, now.
 

Revverie

We would be the ones out of touch if we were whinging and complaining and the (multiplayer part of the) game was loved and well played by a reasonable playerbase. It isn't. The same complaints appear over, and over, and over, everywhere this game is discussed, in competitive circles and in casual circles.

The most relevant point made in that video isn't the first point about a vocal minority, but the fourth point about "Create a conversation between Developers and Players". TaleWorlds never bothered to create that dialogue. We were always talked at, not to. They never explained the actual reasons as to why they decided to reinvent the wheel, and when they gave their "reasons", almost nobody took them seriously because they all sounded like half assed excuses rather than reasons, and were promptly analyzed, deconstructed, and in some cases outright debunked. When the community gave very detailed responses on the issue of the class system, and proposed solutions that would resolve the problems TaleWorlds highlighted with the previous system, without taking everything else away, TaleWorlds indirectly admitted they couldn't argue against them, and just straight up stopped posting in the now dozens of threads, with hundreds/thousands of posts, on the issue.

The game that the developers, or at the very least the decision makers, want to make, is largely antithetical to the game that players want to play. The playerbase isn't going to play something it doesn't want to play, making the playerbase an immovable object. TaleWorlds has to bend and give ground on these issues, or the talented modding community built up around these games will give people want they want, and the result will be a stagnant pool of tribalistic parallel playerbases, and a dead base game, which benefits nobody, especially since attracting new players to the mods will be difficult without a reasonable foundation. Unfortunately this seems to be the only outcome, now.
Good points, I agree on everything here. I wished more people joined the discussion, but I realize the problem is very clear as you say, the devs don't care to forge a community and an actual communication. They have spoken in the patches pages and in their statement for MP but they completely avoid this core issue, and it's showing. I see some clans are still active, but you know, they're the minority. I wished any developed joined this thread to say something.
 

Moton

Squire
That's exactly what I've been saying from the start. There are COUNTLESS of game that have been ran to the ground because barely 100's of people (Not even that here) that are super vocal and in total blind belief that what they think is the only way.

I've said it before, I hope TW doesent listen to much on what people want here on the forum, if it doesent fit their vision of the game they should just leave it be. Unless it happens to a majority of the players wanting this. But 95% of the players are playing Single player and most of the vocal complainers here are talking about multiplayer. So it should'nt be to much of a problem.
 

Moton

Squire
We would be the ones out of touch if we were whinging and complaining and the (multiplayer part of the) game was loved and well played by a reasonable playerbase. It isn't. The same complaints appear over, and over, and over, everywhere this game is discussed, in competitive circles and in casual circles.

FIY, there are not many EA singleplayer focused games with a large multiplayer base. I dont know why people are expecting that at this stage of development. Also the player drop people seem to think is a good referense to a failed game is totally normal. Maybe not as steep but Bannerlord was ultra hyped so it's one of those odd games.

The absolute majority of people buying this game is doing that for the singleplayer. The mulitplayer base is'nt as important as they seem to think they are, sadly. Since I'm the otherway around, I play the multiplayer part until the singleplayer is fleshed out.
 

Mushbeast

Knight
FIY, there are not many EA singleplayer focused games with a large multiplayer base. I dont know why people are expecting that at this stage of development. Also the player drop people seem to think is a good referense to a failed game is totally normal. Maybe not as steep but Bannerlord was ultra hyped so it's one of those odd games.

The absolute majority of people buying this game is doing that for the singleplayer. The mulitplayer base is'nt as important as they seem to think they are, sadly. Since I'm the otherway around, I play the multiplayer part until the singleplayer is fleshed out.
Whilst I understand what you're saying, I think the bigger issue is that it's a massive missed opportunity with MP. It's justified to expect that the multiplayer is given the same amount of love by the devs because there are people who bought it solely for that reason, and one could hope that if the MP was a success the player base could have grown to a point where the game is not just seen as SP-focused. Especially with all the hype they brought about MP before release.

Anyway, I'll reserve my judgement for the MP until full-release or until they release the 'big MP patch' but I'm not going to lie to myself and act like the design choices thus far have been any good or brought any hope. To me it feels like there's a really good game underneath, just bogged down by strange modes and systems.
 

Roadpork

Veteran
Since the MP is very dead now, no matter what you like. If you are still playing it, then you are automatically categorized as a minority.

On the other hand, I think the core mechanism of game is great. People mostly complain about designs, rules, not the basic game("physical-level" basic I mean).
What people angry about is: even though adjusting game rules is way easier than rebuild the basic system, devs are still doing it slower than people expected.
That is my understanding of other player's thoughts.

One thing I don't like is: the game seems towards e-sport. That looks pretty much suicide when a game has a very small community.
(When you talking about the MP community, don't count SP players in. I was an SP player, I know they don't care about MP).
 

Moton

Squire
Whilst I understand what you're saying, I think the bigger issue is that it's a massive missed opportunity with MP. It's justified to expect that the multiplayer is given the same amount of love by the devs because there are people who bought it solely for that reason, and one could hope that if the MP was a success the player base could have grown to a point where the game is not just seen as SP-focused. Especially with all the hype they brought about MP before release.

Anyway, I'll reserve my judgement for the MP until full-release or until they release the 'big MP patch' but I'm not going to lie to myself and act like the design choices thus far have been any good or brought any hope. To me it feels like there's a really good game underneath, just bogged down by strange modes and systems.

That's true. I'm however convinced that the multiplayer will thrive in the end. I think the problem is that they are using the same systems between singleplayer and multiplayer, correct me if I'm wrong but it feels like when they make a balance change in multiplayer it affects singleplayer and
conversely singleplayer -> multiplayer?

Also it took them a while to understand the fact that they need to balance and change Skirmish, Captain and Siege differently wich have take ALOT of time for the devs to redo almost every change they originaly did, now when they have figured this out I hope they will actually get somewhere.
 

Revverie

But 95% of the players are playing Single player and most of the vocal complainers here are talking about multiplayer. So it should'nt be to much of a problem.
Yes, that is the point of this thread Motton, to discuss multiplayer, that's why I posted this in the multiplayer section. I myself like Singleplayer but despise multiplayer completely, so I'm both in the Singleplayer and Multiplayer percentage and I'm sure a lot of other players are just like me.

And please don't throw percentages without any source or truth in it to imply multiplayer players' opinion doesn't matter, because let me remind you that if it didn't really matter Taleworlds wouldn't have hosted a multiplayer event, they wouldn't be trying to do a Ranked mode, and they wouldn't have an entire portion of their team dedicated to develop multiplayer.

The thing is a lot of the decisions of the devs have made a lot of players plain quit the game, you can see that in multiple threads, and if you think people in the forums are just a little percentage then just check the game itself. When you make a sequel and most of the profesional players of the previous game are choosing not to play your game is because something is wrong, and I'm not saying TW is not allowed to have a vision or to have new ideas, but if your ideas are not clicking with players, the best thing you could do is to try a change.


Now this is a great video that correlates so much with what is going on now.

On minute 5:30 the dev of Robocraft talks how they dumbed down mechanics in order to get new players but they FAILED in doing so and not only that but they angered the existing playerbase. Perhaps this is the most important video Devs have to watch, because in minute 6:50 he says "Our biggest regret was not listening to the dedicated players" jesus christ this a direct parallel to what is going on here. Taleworlds has neglected everyone of us here, and the casual players are leaving too, what is the damn point of all of this? Taleworlds has been promising a big MP patch but they have done it so many times before and each one of them still neglects players feedback, we're not just a minority, we're the entire playerbase
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
There are plenty of examples of both situations really, I think the main predictor of whether the devs end up proving they were right is when they have a really cohesive idea and manage to realise it well. The main sense I get from Bannerlord MP, unfortunately, is much more disjointed - some aspects are well planned, others seem more vague, and it doesn't come together. The class system and matchmaking, for example, actually work really well - in isolation. However, no further thought seems to have been given to the possible negatives of the system e.g. lack of customisation, extreme complexity in balancing across multiple game modes when gold is formula driven. We already see some of the planning get disregarded as the reality clashes, such as the original plan of unit aesthetics matching their armour and speed (Vlandian sharpshooters originally were tanky as they looked, now they have very low armour but still look like absolute units).

Most of all the lack of cohesive design and planning is apparent in the combat. I think it was Armagan who defended this saying they always wanted physics-driven combat that's responsive and enjoyable to play - but the lack of fine tuning to the combat completely marred this, if it was even possible. There have been many updates and it's gotten better, but it's all putting out fires - responding to individual issues with patches and slight tweaks, which leaves the overall state still disappointing.

The final thing I would say is a huge weakness in TW's approach to the game is eschewing any comparison or building upon Warband. They seem almost offended by the suggestion that cues or lessons could be taken from Warband, which to me just seems like a zealous desire to insist everything is built from scratch and re-thought from first principles. Which is admirable in some ways - how many sequels are just disappointing cash grabs that add 2 things but otherwise just re-sell the same game? - but in this case I think doesn't work considering how much unfulfilled potential Warband had. If ever there was a game that needed repackaged, polished, improved upon, and perfected, it was Warband. Instead they scrapped it all and made another diamond in the rough (and the diamond part is arguable).
 

Younes

Master Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
For every game that failed due to bad player feedback, there is another that failed due to bad developer decisions.

There are plenty of examples for both. But there are decisions (like classes) that have an overwhelming majority of players who dislike it. Even some developers are still not behind the idea. But here we are
 

Moton

Squire
Yes, that is the point of this thread Motton, to discuss multiplayer, that's why I posted this in the multiplayer section. I myself like Singleplayer but despise multiplayer completely, so I'm both in the Singleplayer and Multiplayer percentage and I'm sure a lot of other players are just like me.

And please don't throw percentages without any source or truth in it to imply multiplayer players' opinion doesn't matter, because let me remind you that if it didn't really matter Taleworlds wouldn't have hosted a multiplayer event, they wouldn't be trying to do a Ranked mode, and they wouldn't have an entire portion of their team dedicated to develop multiplayer.

So you cant mention singleplayer in the Multiplayer section of the forum even if it's relevant? Are you serious right now or just butthurt?

Okay, my bad. Since there is an average of 11000 players at the same time (this month) in the game and average there is about ~150 (not average however so I should lower this number ALOT, but I'll keep it that high because otherwise it will be to small) people playing multiplayer at the same time. That means the multiplayer player count is about 1.36% of the total player count at the same time. And even less on peak days when there is about 19800 players but still not much more multiplayer activity, it's more but doesent grow as much as the singleplayer count wich will lower the total % of the multiplayer side. Taleworlds however want it to become competetive wich is why they have the loadout stystem among other decisions.
 
I hope TW keeps doing what they are doing. Lot of salty veterans on the forums. Combat is pretty good now. It will get better in time. More content will be pushed too. People have to have patience.
 
"Combat is pretty good" now because the vets gave feedback back then. (Modified Combat Parameters)

Yep. Thanks for pointing that out. That was a rare occurrence where a veteran player who knows very well the combat system, and modding or configuring combat parameters, took action into its own hands, communicated respectfully with other players and TW devs, elaborated on the changes, and flattened out spikes of "opinions". Then time passed for TW devs to digest the proposed changes, and tested it themselves, etc.

That type of feedback process almost never happens. It is very rare. You are very rare too Terco. You present your point of view in a very fair and objective manner, and compose threads in a very detailed way. Salty vets (lots of em) don't do that and just say on the forums. "Yea when they fix the combat gameplay ill reinstall".

My previous post is referring to the average veteran salty joe here in the forum, and to them, I say this: Hey, you like the spammfest of competitive and high skill combat gameplay of Warband, and you are unhappy you don't see in BL, too bad! Now we have a more kinda-esque realistic combat gameplay, and its pretty fun, at least for me. You should learn to enjoy it too!
 

Younes

Master Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
Yep. Thanks for pointing that out. That was a rare occurrence where a veteran player who knows very well the combat system, and modding or configuring combat parameters, took action into its own hands, communicated respectfully with other players and TW devs, elaborated on the changes, and flattened out spikes of "opinions". Then time passed for TW devs to digest the proposed changes, and tested it themselves, etc.

That type of feedback process almost never happens. It is very rare. You are very rare too Terco. You present your point of view in a very fair and objective manner, and compose threads in a very detailed way. Salty vets (lots of em) don't do that and just say on the forums. "Yea when they fix the combat gameplay ill reinstall".

My previous post is referring to the average veteran salty joe here in the forum, and to them, I say this: Hey, you like the spammfest of competitive and high skill combat gameplay of Warband, and you are unhappy you don't see in BL, too bad! Now we have a more kinda-esque realistic combat gameplay, and its pretty fun, at least for me. You should learn to enjoy it too!
I don't even give a damn about anything u just mentioned. I just want to be able to make my own class
 

Shatti

Squire
WBWF&SNWVC
i'm not wrong when i say "i want to play with my favorite weapons & customize my clothing"
they are wrong to force me to carry something i don't like
there is a core relation between the player & the weapon
it's not a total war game, we are not bots, i want to master the timing and the physics of a certain weapon, and get really gud with it in combat
 
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