Archery sucks, shields overpowered

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Therion_Prime said:
1) Grab a bow (in SP) and shoot a "bot" - who is running straight at you with his shield on his side - in the exposed chest, the arrow will magically appear on his shield.

Only true for the higher tier troops ( Huscarls,....). When shooting at Bandits or other weaklings you can shoot in the exposed parts and hit him.
It's maybe a bit weird when they're holding a javelin/axe throw, but still.

  About game not being balanced, we 've been on beta for quite a long time, I think everything has been made to try to balance the game. Posting here saying "Shields Are OP!!!!!!111" or whatever is kinda stupid. It will only sounds like "I was beaten by a better player using XXX so it's OP!
 
Daeran said:
Therion_Prime said:
1) Grab a bow (in SP) and shoot a "bot" - who is running straight at you with his shield on his side - in the exposed chest, the arrow will magically appear on his shield.

Only true for the higher tier troops ( Huscarls,....). When shooting at Bandits or other weaklings you can shoot in the exposed parts and hit him.
It's maybe a bit weird when they're holding a javelin/axe throw, but still.
  About game not being balanced, we 've been on beta for quite a long time, I think everything has been made to try to balance the game. Posting here saying "Shields Are OP!!!!!!111" or whatever is kinda stupid. It will only sounds like "I was beaten by a better player using XXX so it's OP!

To be fair shields ARE OP. Many other things too, so game is somehow balanced using method 'fight fire with fire'.

Spinning 2h/spears are broken ? take a ranged weapon or shield (that is broken too) or spin too!
Kickslash with mace/spear/club with spike is broken ? take a shield, ranged weapon or 2h sword or kickslash too, or go cavalry.
Shields are broken ? Take a horse or be horsed archer or shoot from the roofs or kickslash them.
Ranged is op ? Take a shield or be ranged too.

Horse archery is broken ? Well, you are ****ed, this is the only thing that make every other fighting style disadvantaged.

So all in all, the only TRUE overpowered thing is horse archery.

Of course, imo the game is not balanced in the way it should. Power level of archery is fine, but the way it's done is not fine.
 
TRuBi said:
This is ridiculous. I bet it won't take long until someone posts saying that calvary need to get buffed because spears are overpowered.

You can already see everything in the forum :smile: Cavalry is OP, archers are OP, infantry is overpowered.

Therion_Prime said:
I'm not going to respond to that insulting rubbish you posted.
You just put a pretty bad light on the MP crowd.

Let's not fool ourselves. I don't have a good opinion of people like you, and you don't have a good opinion of skilled people. Skilled people, and those striving to become skilled, will not admire noobishness. That's the order of things.
You come here blaming MP for your own failures and then I should be careful not to tarnish the image of MP crowd. What do you think I am, Mother Theresa? I say how I see things (often more roughly than needed, admittedly). If you want to refute my claims, go ahead. Just don't ask me to maintain the image you made in your head, of whatever crowd. I won't fit in.

1) Grab a bow (in SP) and shoot a "bot" - who is running straight at you with his shield on his side - in the exposed chest, the arrow will magically appear on his shield.

2) Cry.

3) Then talk to me again.

Grab a bow in original MnB. Shoot someone near his head, but not in the head. He dies.


Yes, MP made the game sooooo much better.

Exactly, but it's a matter of point of view. Never has anything existed in the world that someone didn't hate or dislike. Therefore no matter is about "what will everyone like", but about "I want these people to like this, so I will make it this way".
MP made things better for me and worse for you. Skill has won great victory, and noobishness cries in every second thread: "archers suck" "archers are overpowered", and so on. When someone is new (newbie) he will try to learn and watch experts in Spectator mode. When someone is a noob, he doesn't want to learn, he just wants I-Win button.
 
Hallo to everyone, just registered, proud owner of m&b and warband.
Just wanted to express my opinion about this topic.
I like archery as is, but if it was for me i'd lower shield skill and archery skill of multiplayer units, so shield would cover the effective size of the board, but archers would be' much more inaccourate too.
That us just an idea, dunno if it would work well tho.
 
Lucadena said:
Hallo to everyone, just registered, proud owner of m&b and warband.
Just wanted to express my opinion about this topic.
I like archery as is, but if it was for me i'd lower shield skill and archery skill of multiplayer units, so shield would cover the effective size of the board, but archers would be' much more inaccourate too.
That us just an idea, dunno if it would work well tho.

If they removed the crosshair for archers then sure.

But if they did´nt the game would turn into to a legolas wannabe frensy and ruin the entire game imo. it wouldnt take more than 3 days before everyone would only use archer classes infantry would be useless.

its not gonna happen trust me.  :wink:
 
AshGear said:
Lucadena said:
Hallo to everyone, just registered, proud owner of m&b and warband.
Just wanted to express my opinion about this topic.
I like archery as is, but if it was for me i'd lower shield skill and archery skill of multiplayer units, so shield would cover the effective size of the board, but archers would be' much more inaccourate too.
That us just an idea, dunno if it would work well tho.

If they removed the crosshair for archers then sure.

But if they did´nt the game would turn into to a legolas wannabe frensy and ruin the entire game imo. it wouldnt take more than 3 days before everyone would only use archer classes infantry would be useless.

its not gonna happen trust me.  :wink:

Exactly, imagine if they gave the option to use swords in counter strike... who would use them in stead of a gun?
 
Yeah, if archers could hit around shields and kill people comings straight at them there wouldn't be a way to stop them. I can down most cav on their way to me too, so long as there's only one or two of them. If I could get past everyone's shields, then I'd be unstoppable except by other archers, and it wouldn't take long for everyone to figure that out and then everyone would be an archer. Its significantly easier in single player to hit around shields because of lower shield skill for bots and because there isn't any ping that causes lag. If you can't do it in SP, practice more. Reapy put it best, I think.
 
I like to think that the shield forcefield represents the micro movements you'd make with a shield while you're defending, since you are holding your shield ready to block something. You wouldn't just hold it in one static position as you advance upon an archer shooting at you, not at all. You'd move the shield whenever you saw an arrow coming so that it would be more between you and said arrow.
 
I understand your point and agree. If force field would be' removed then arrows would have to' be' set as they really were: useless against armors.
In medieval warfare arrows were a danger only against unarmored peons, because even a light armor (padded or leather) was quite effective against em. Not to' mention that anything like mail was untouchavle by arrows.
I am not expert about medieval warfare but this is what i know.
I feeling archers balanced as they Are now, sometimes even owerpowered anyway.
 
Lucadena said:
I understand your point and agree. If force field would be' removed then arrows would have to' be' set as they really were: useless against armors.
In medieval warfare arrows were a danger only against unarmored peons, because even a light armor (padded or leather) was quite effective against em. Not to' mention that anything like mail was untouchavle by arrows.
I am not expert about medieval warfare but this is what i know.
I feeling archers balanced as they Are now, sometimes even owerpowered anyway.

this statement is wrong and right at the same time
a broadhead arrow is pretty **** against anything but cloth but the larger head will slice a horse up pretty good
a bodkin will go through some types of mail (smaller the links less effective the arrow) it can penetrate plate plate Armour but not consistently if fired head on (and that discounts the bodkin finding weakness or defects in the plate gaps in the Armour and hitting the visor slit there are far to many variables) and that's all assuming that your using a bow of sufficient draw about 160-180 pounds.

the only fabric that could stop a bodkin fired from a 160-180 pound bow would be silk but it would hurt like **** if it was just the silk.

the force field (if that's Wat we are going to call it) works fine but needs to be clipped closers to the actual shields image i can head shot someone with raised round shield but anything bigger than the size of the force fields just 2 big

side note a shield on your back can stop arrows but not a sword swing?

bows and crossbows are a bit weak but a simple damage boost would be a bad move applying the resistance flag for shields to Armour could act as a simple penetration system but  the devs would never implement it considering the bug fixing there still doing the the headache it would be to get the values right (historically)
 
Lucadena said:
I understand your point and agree. If force field would be' removed then arrows would have to' be' set as they really were: useless against armors.
...because even a light armor (padded or leather) was quite effective against em. Not to' mention that anything like mail was untouchavle by arrows.

So far as I know, mail isn't very good against piercing weapons, the mail links spread the impact outwards from where the blow lands, and if the energy is concentrated in a small area (as with a piercing attack) the links do not spread the impact as well, so the weapon will likely smash through the links. With a slashing blow, the energy is concentrated in a larger area of the striking weapon, so the mail spreads it a lot more easily across the links.
Cloth & leather was mostly good for deflecting glancing or weak blows from swords, arrows would have gone through them most likely. Most armour failed against the heavy crossbow bolts, whilst the momentum of the yard long arrows that the longbows fired falling from the sky would go through most armours (most likely bounce off of plate except at very short ranges if the shot hit the target dead on).

In medieval warfare arrows were a danger only against unarmored peons

A lot of the fighting of the 13th/14th centuries revolved around professional Companies of soldiers being hired by their King for a campaign, rather than the use of serfs/peasants. 12th century I am not so sure about, but certainly for battles such a Crécy, majority of the combatants would have been professional soldiers or Lords with their retinues. You need your serfs/peasants to work your fields, craft & forge weapons, armour & supplies for the armies, as well as provide horses, carts & transport for the army's rations, supplies & equipment. Certainly an expensive way to wage war, if I'm reliably informed Henry V of England pawned his crown jewels to raise the money for his campaign in France that culminated in the battle of Azincourt/Agincourt (whichever spelling you prefer), but serfs/peasants were a valuable commodity, as they were items of property, and needed to do the menial jobs that others wouldn't.
Another couple of social factors, short life expectancy, poor sanitation & living standards, meant that serfs/peasants had short enough lives as it was without risking them on a battlefield. They'd also be incredibly unreliable troops and just a bunch of extra mouths to feed on campaign.

I am not expert about medieval warfare but this is what i know.

Don't worry, I'm definatly not an expert, and if I'm incorrect, hopefully someone will correct me. Always good to learn new things  :smile:

I feeling archers balanced as they Are now, sometimes even owerpowered anyway.

I know what you mean. Once you've the hang of how high to aim for the arrow drop on each bow its almost a doddle, but ocne those shields are out your arrows are going to find it really hard to get past them. I tend to leg it instead of facing shield bearing foes, find easier targets.

If they did introduce a dynamic blocking system for shields & altered the 'force-fields', then they should remove the reticule and increase the dispersion a little more. It is annoying to shoot at an opponents feet only to hear a 'thwack' as the arrow somehow hits their shield...  :sad:
 
I thought none of the bodkin points ever found have been made of hardened steel, and so it's been discounted as an armor-piercing weapon?

At any rate, I play archery quite a bit in battle and siege and generally do quite well. You just have to remember that you are an auxiliary troop and not a front-line combatant. Use positioning and allies to flank the enemy and don't try to rambo. If someone  is charging at you with a shield just pour fire into it, you might be surprised how much damage you can do, especially if their shield has otherwise been damaged already. Then just whip out your melee weapon and finish them off. Archers are perfectly capable fighting in melee against infantry.
 
Therion_Prime said:
1) Grab a bow (in SP) and shoot a "bot" - who is running straight at you with his shield on his side - in the exposed chest, the arrow will magically appear on his shield.
No it won't. Shield skill, and thus the forcefield, only works when actively blocking. Passive block only affects arrows which hit the shield. Workaround is to not shoot the side holding the shield. Can't be that hard since the AI archers seem to manage it pretty consistently.
 
Lucadena said:
I understand your point and agree. If force field would be' removed then arrows would have to' be' set as they really were: useless against armors.
In medieval warfare arrows were a danger only against unarmored peons, because even a light armor (padded or leather) was quite effective against em. Not to' mention that anything like mail was untouchavle by arrows.
I am not expert about medieval warfare but this is what i know.
I feeling archers balanced as they Are now, sometimes even owerpowered anyway.

actually wrong,mongols could penetrate chainmail with ease 100 meter away with their compound bows made from bone,horn,wood and glue,and thats why they had succes in europe.Actually they were never defeated despite numbers were not on their sides ,they left because khan died from illness.They also used bows to fire explosive devices to break shield walls,or in sieges.

Besides plate mail,best protection against arrows is silk garb underneath leather/mail/lamelar armor,which at that time in Europe only mongols wore.Full plate was so expensive that only kings and lords could afford it.

Thing with silk is that arrow cant pierce trough it(or tore it),so you can just pop arrow from your body by stretching surrounding silk without risk of doing additional damage,and with no leftovers from fabric that could infect the wound which would eventually cause death.

 
 
Argh, please don't buff archers. They're good ATM.

People coming from single player expect to be able to level 7-8 enemies head on before the clash of shield-walls, but this is multiplayer! One must consider balance!

Archers are relegated to a skirmisher/harassment role, but that role can have a massive effect on a battle, especially if archers work together and generate a crossfire.


Also, I have had direct experience with situations where a team full of Vaegir longbows generating a crossfire (or a team full of Swadian Xbows forming a line in the middle of a field) have made the enemy simply disintegrate. They can be quite powerful.




 
Archery is pretty damned powerful in the hands of any skilled player. It doesn't really show its true potential in the average public cluster****, but nothing does.

EdwardWellcraft said:
I thought none of the bodkin points ever found have been made of hardened steel, and so it's been discounted as an armor-piercing weapon?

Yes, but someone neglected to inform these people. Admittedly, the shape of the arrowhead does tend to trigger 'ooooh so pointy!' as a reflexive comment.

A cloth/mail/padding combination will protect the wearer against the vast majority of projectiles. Plate armour does an even better job, though having to bash out the dents and patch the punctures afterwards tends to be a pain.
 
Arrows employed by the Mongols in the 1200's were designed to pierce the lamellar armor of the Chinese they were fighting. Lamellar is basically a combination of plate mail and chain mail, where plates distribute impact like links of chain. Underneath that, they wore silk tunics that didnt break, but would be pushed into their bodies by the arrows that pierced the armor and still inflict mortal wounds.

And in combination with the arrows, the bow is the thing mainly designed to kill. The Mongols spent an entire year making and drying a bow to perfection.

In conclusion, arrows are anything but over-powered in this game. Historically (also, only my opinion) they are underpowered.

PS If the shields didn't have the "magical forcefield" around them, then arrow shots to the feet shouldn't be able to kill you.
 
try playing as an archer in a siege battle.. (as the defender ofcourse), you can get outrageous many kills..
in one round i ended up with a score of 40 to 16 or something (not great i know), where the 35 kills were with a bow.
I simply stood at the towers and picked off any people who exposed themselves :grin:
 
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