Archers need a nerf.

Arches OP?

  • Yes

    Votes: 74 27.1%
  • No

    Votes: 98 35.9%
  • Buff Armor instead

    Votes: 125 45.8%

  • Total voters
    273

Flesson19

Recruit
Best answers
0
I've thought about this a lot, arrows should do massive damage so fine with their damage, but their accuracy to me is the big deal. People aren't that perfect and it is hard to find 50 or 100 that are so deadly accurate constantly, just lower all ranged weapons a bit and should be better.
 

kweassa

Sergeant at Arms
Best answers
0
I've thought about this a lot, arrows should do massive damage so fine with their damage, but their accuracy to me is the big deal. People aren't that perfect and it is hard to find 50 or 100 that are so deadly accurate constantly, just lower all ranged weapons a bit and should be better.
Deadly accurate consistently, at what range, against how many archers?

Pick into the details -- that's what ppl complain about the archers usually either fail to mention, or conveniently leave out.

Let's think for a while. If archers were so 'deadly accurate,' then what is that whole ruckus about when certain groups of people came onto the boards in outrage that HAs are OP and their archers just couldn't hit them? Why were they complaining about the archers missing a lot of shots against lateral movement as the HAs rode by?

Then it becomes pretty evident what the circumstances are, when it feels like arrows are way too accurate or consistent:

(1) The distance is close -- usually under 60.
(2) You have no lateral movement, approaching/charging the group of ranged units in a straight line
(3) You, as the leader, are most likely protruding from the formation, prompting multiple archers to target you 'point blank'

Is the 'consistency/accuracy' in this case really something to be surprised about?
 
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flavior flavius

Recruit
Best answers
0
Deadly accurate consistently, at what range, against how many archers?

Pick into the details -- that's what ppl complain about the archers usually either fail to mention, or conveniently leave out.

Let's think for a while. If archers were so 'deadly accurate,' then what is that whole ruckus about when certain groups of people came onto the boards in outrage that HAs are OP and their archers just couldn't hit them? Why were they complaining about the archers missing a lot of shots against lateral movement as the HAs rode by?

Then it becomes pretty evident what the circumstances are, when it feels like arrows are way too accurate or consistent:

(1) The distance is close -- usually under 60.
(2) You have no lateral movement, approaching/charging the group of ranged units in a straight line
(3) You, as the leader, are most likely protruding from the formation, prompting multiple archers to target you 'point blank'

Is the 'consistency/accuracy' in this case really something to be surprised about?
Agreed. I don't think archer accuracy is a problem, especially for lower level archers who can't seem to hit the broad side of a barn past 50 yards. Archer firing speed however...
 

kweassa

Sergeant at Arms
Best answers
0
Agreed. I don't think archer accuracy is a problem, especially for lower level archers who can't seem to hit the broad side of a barn past 50 yards. Archer firing speed however...
I guess all ranged weapons do have that problem. I can sort of agree with that. Especially like, if the player holds two bags of javelins witj a certain amount of skill, it's like grab-throw-grab-throw-grab-throw non-stop ... and this is ESPECIALLY EVIDENT with the looters LOL -- when people complain about the looters and their rocks, it's not really the accuracy... but the volume of rocks thrown in quick succession.

It almost feels like the looters can pitch in MLB full-time over 10 innings straight..!
 

Dabos37

Squire
Best answers
0
Archers (and Horse archers) are by far the most effective unit in the game currently by far.

And for these people posting custom battle results, just test 50 Vlandian Knights vs 50 Battania Hero and not vs 50 peasants...

Archers spam is without any doubt the way to go to win battles easily without almost losses.
 

hruza

Knight at Arms
Best answers
0
And for these people posting custom battle results, just test 50 Vlandian Knights vs 50 Battania Hero and not vs 50 peasants...


RIP archers spam theory. And before you ask, yes it's on realistic damage.
 

Gelimer

Regular
Best answers
0
What they could do maybe is to make cavalry more of a threat to archers on the initial charge by making horse collisions with humans much more powerful.

In real life if a horse ( let alone a heavy armoured warhorse ) collide with you at full galloping speed while you are standing still , i can assure you end up in the hospital immediately or with severe trauma.

Using your sword desperately and slashing on impact wont protect you at all, you will actually take more damage than if you brace.
 

hruza

Knight at Arms
Best answers
0
He probably meant "leave it to the dumb AI without player control" ... (or is that already a result of such? lol)
Well I did. F1-F3. I have just repositioned cav in to different place so that both sides have a plain field and archers have clear line of fire while cav is not slowed down by slopes. That's all. It was strait on charge and I did not maneuver cav to the flanks of anything like that. If I would command cavalry around, it would have ended up much worst for fians. Now the battle was close enough that out of 100 tries you may get fians win some of the time, taking in to account random factor, but you are talking about the best archers in their tier in the entire game that double as a very good 2H infantry. And you practicaly newer going to face 50 of them in a single battle.

Fians are indeed very good unit. Except that does not make "archers" as a whole OP.

In real life if a horse ( let alone a heavy armoured warhorse ) collide with you at full galloping speed while you are standing still , i can assure you end up in the hospital immediately or with severe trauma. Using your sword and slashing on impact wont protect you at all, you will actually take more damage than if you brace.
You forgot Newton's third law of physic: for every action there is equal and opposite reaction. If you get hit by horse at full gallop, you're not the only one who can end up in a hospital:

 
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Gelimer

Regular
Best answers
0
Indeed very good point :smile:

However this would get into deep details ( in large battles it would probably take more resources too ).

This suggestion was just to address game balance and have more of a "rock paper scissor" balance so that nobody thinks this or that type of unit is OP ( since there would be a powerful counter ) but it is true that it could in some ways be at the expense of realism.
 

Dabos37

Squire
Best answers
0


RIP archers spam theory. And before you ask, yes it's on realistic damage.
I tested It yesterday 5 times and Knights got killed 5 of 5. So not sure how did you test that. Do you use the charge option for cavalry? Or just send them to attack on a specific point? I am using the charge order and maybe It is not a good idea.


EDIT: BTW, just tested again and same result, battania heroes wrecked knights:



So the theory about archers spam is alive again I suppose.
 
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hruza

Knight at Arms
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0
I tested It yesterday 5 times and Knights got killed 5 of 5. So not sure how did you test that. Do you use the charge option for cavalry? Or just send them to attack on a specific point? I am using the charge order and maybe It is not a good idea.
Just F1-F3. I do however adjust length of their line before to match enemy archers. 1.4.1 patch.

With Imperials:

 

Dabos37

Squire
Best answers
0
Just tested Imperial heavy Horsemen vs Battanie Hero and same result, archers wrecked that knights as you can see in video:


So not sure why you are getting these results.
 

hruza

Knight at Arms
Best answers
0
So not sure why you are getting these results.
Try elongating line of your cavalry before you give order to charge. If they are bunched together like this, they try to attack the same target, obstruct each other and even get struck, allowing fians to draw their 2H swords and cut them down. It's not issue when groups are smaller or divided, but when you are dealing with dozens horsemen together, it will drastically decrease their effectiveness because heavy cavalry rely on charging. This is why on large battlescales like 150:150, cavalry will actually loose against archers. But those are not realistic scales that you will encounter in the game.
 

Lord Irontoe

Sergeant Knight at Arms
Best answers
0
I think F1-F3 has become the new autocalc, in that its the surest way to get your men killed. They seem to perform their worst when ordered to charge.
 

Apocal

Squire
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0
I think F1-F3 has become the new autocalc, in that its the surest way to get your men killed. They seem to perform their worst when ordered to charge.
I went through and did some testing on my own. F1 F3 went without issues; cavalry stomped archers every single time. A variety of different types of cav, half the tests against Fian Champions, the other three with Aserai Master Archers (generally considered the best non-noble archers) and Palatine Guard (best armored archers). I wanted to avoid any particular confluence or weird interaction of specific weapons vs. specific archers.

My rig is basically a potato so I can't really push the battle numbers very high like others can, but with 100 or 150 instead of 50, things only got more lopsided in favor of the cavalry. The more horsemen, the better.

Playing on 1.4.0.
 

Dabos37

Squire
Best answers
0
Are you using mods or something? I really do not get why cavalry is performing as bad in game and It looks like It is great in yours... It does not make any sense. I have even recorded two videos...

I have the feeling that you are testing It in maps where archers are not able to start shooting from distance or you are using mods. If not, I really do not get what is happening. Or maybe you are getting involved in battle while getting focused by archers.

BTW, I did the tests using 1.4.1.
 

Apocal

Squire
Best answers
0
Are you using mods or something?
Nothing that should impact combat performance: Detailed Character Creator, Distinguished Service, V's Faction Armouries and the one that let's you pick troops in custom battles.

I really do not get why cavalry is performing as bad in game and It looks like It is great in yours... It does not make any sense. I have even recorded two videos...

I have the feeling that you are testing It in maps where archers are not able to start shooting from distance or you are using mods. If not, I really do not get what is happening. Or maybe you are getting involved in battle while getting focused by archers.

BTW, I did the tests using 1.4.1.
Im using the top desert map, the specific arrangement caries each time depending on start position (randomized as far as I can tell) but they are just big dunes with otherwise zero obstructions. I'm not getting involved but I can upload a video to YouTube with the warning that my laptop is a potato so it is pretty much a slideshow. But you can see the kill list and my lack of involvement.