Archer class suggestion

[Kiss_of_Judas]

Since the original suggeston has gone trough some polishing I have decided to update it in first post for new people:

Basically what I am proposing is a mid-stance for archers. This consists of having an arrow readied on the bow with ability to walk around and fire it when necessary:

To get to this ready-stance you would either: 1. Cancel the arrow shot or 2. Press weapon toggle key where your character would put the arrow on the bow without trying to fire

Than from here(not to important but still something to think of):

Suggestion 1: Pressing right mouse button/weapon toggle again key would put the arrow back in the pouch and if you changed weapon without doing so you would lose arrow(more realistic).
Suggestion 2: You dont lose arrow on weapon change but when you change back to bow your arrow is still nocked on the bow(so-so). RMB/X to put arrow back in the pouch.
Suggestion 3: There would be no need for any clicks, you just change to weapon and your bow state resets without losing arrow(least realistic).
Suggestion 4: ???

To everyone else talking about how arrow firing rate will be lower, it WONT. You are still firing with 1 mouse click and animation speed is still the same. Only change is done on fire reset where the arrow remains nocked on the bow instead of dissapearing from your hand.

Original post is here (without the picture)

Hello, firstly I apologize if this has been suggested in the past.

After watching the latest Robin Hood movie I've noticed something that might be useful for Warband archer classes.

How about adding the "ready" step between the steps of taking arrows out of the pouch and the step of shooting it from the bow?


If you were to change to you sword right away(with mouse wheel up or down) while in "ready" position you would lose that arrow. To keep the arrow you would have to press cancel(RMB) where your character would put the arrow back in the pouch first.

In the middle "ready" position archer could run, maybe slower, but he could also be able to prepare for shots more naturally.

The system that is in right now feels really unnatural since battles in Warband are actually....well, battles and in real life you would probably walk with your arrows readied because you would be aware that enemy is near by.

This system could also encourage players to be more mobile with archers and the archer duels would certainly look more natural instead of the silly looking shoot-strafe tactics when 2 archers meet.

p.s. not to mention that I've already noticed how players keep doing the arrow cancel spam when they are about to meet the enemy(that looks silly too IMO).

What do you think?

 

[GerDeathstar]

First of all: Don't think Hollywood is a good example for a realism-based game. That's a false conclusion. Even a film about "Robin Hood" doesn't get everything right.

Apart from that, I agree that the Left-Click Right-Click shot-cancel spam looks unnatural but hey, it's the fastest way to have a shot ready when you need to. Even with an animation such as the one you proposed (as sort of an "idle-stance") you'd still have to ready the shot, for perfect timing the cancel-thingy would still be required...

If you want to enforce realism, you could always propose to remove the ability to spam the cancel, but then you'd have to get rid off all the other unrealistic things as well. Why does my guy still reach for his back when his quiver is at his side? Why can I hold my shot forever?

 

[velocity30]

Yea you really can't be too nit-picky with games, I think the way it's done now works well.

The "cancel spamming" does look foolish but it's a very effective tool with advanced archery in the game. When dueling an xbowman, nocking your arrow & canceling it twice just after they shoot gives you the proper timing of when they are reloaded, & probably going to pop out and take another shot. So after the xbow shoots do "nock, cancel, nock, cancel, nock", during the last nock you ready your shot/move out of cover. The xbowman should be about to move out of cover at that point.

Cancel spamming can be useful for archer duels too. Skilled archers that dual at range always end up in this cyclical timing of shooting & strafing, canceling shots disrupts the cycle. If you can manipulate this sort of timing cycle it can be useful. The cancel can be used as a "feint" for archers.

 

[Kiss_of_Judas]

[quote author=GerDeathstar]
First of all: Don't think Hollywood is a good example for a realism-based game. That's a false conclusion. Even a film about "Robin Hood" doesn't get everything right.[/quote]
Forget about the movie, it was something that gave me an idea. BTW, I do think they got this part right, would you keep arrows behind in battle or would you rather ready one for suprise?
[quote author=GerDeathstar]
Apart from that, I agree that the Left-Click Right-Click shot-cancel spam looks unnatural but hey, it's the fastest way to have a shot ready when you need to. Even with an animation such as the one you proposed (as sort of an "idle-stance") you'd still have to ready the shot, for perfect timing the cancel-thingy would still be required....[/quote]
Main difference is that it would look more natural and require less time. Aiming a bow takes probably a tenth of a second with skilled archer because they stretch the bow as they raise it up for alignment. Right now it takes around a second (maybe im wrong) to fire an arrow and there is no way around it. I dont like to telegraph my actions to an opponent.
[quote author=GerDeathstar]
If you want to enforce realism, you could always propose to remove the ability to spam the cancel, but then you'd have to get rid off all the other unrealistic things as well. Why does my guy still reach for his back when his quiver is at his side? Why can I hold my shot forever?
[/quote]
I dont think those 2 things affect the gameplay as my foreamentioned issue. Having ability to fire shots faster is more important.
[quote author=velocity30]
Yea you really can't be too nit-picky with games, I think the way it's done now works well.[/quote]
I dont think that being able to shoot an arrow at someone in same amount of time as they take to raise the shield is being "nit-picky". Current system works well, but does it mean there is no room for improvement?
[quote author=velocity30]
The "cancel spamming" does look foolish but it's a very effective tool with advanced archery in the game. When dueling an xbowman, nocking your arrow & canceling it twice just after they shoot gives you the proper timing of when they are reloaded, & probably going to pop out and take another shot. So after the xbow shoots do "nock, cancel, nock, cancel, nock", during the last nock you ready your shot/move out of cover. The xbowman should be about to move out of cover at that point.[/quote]
I believe that it is never soon enough to start getting rid of foolish looking things from Warband because once everyone else is accustomed to it, it will become standard feature like bunny-hopping in cs.
[quote author=velocity30]
Cancel spamming can be useful for archer duels too. Skilled archers that dual at range always end up in this cyclical timing of shooting & strafing, canceling shots disrupts the cycle. If you can manipulate this sort of timing cycle it can be useful. The cancel can be used as a "feint" for archers.
[/quote]
I never said fire-canceling should be removed.

And another thing, this wouldnt make the archer class slower in firing arrows. It only gives opportunity to ready your arrow, which is only one mouse click away from firing. Default bow animation still makes sure you put the arrow on the bow first. This would only be sort of a pause inbetween the animation(not even a time pause if you did 2 consecutive clicks in a row). I ask you this, since it wouldnt be cheating to place it as a client-based option, what do you think people would use if they could choose?

p.s. This is exact same system that is already implemented in xbows, so I dont see much of a hassle for its implementation in bows(from developers point of view), and even player wouldnt even need time to adjust IMO.

 

[doomsayer]

I like the idea.

 

[crazyboy11]

I quite like the simplicity of the current system, one click to draw and fire, right mouse to cancel. Having to click twice seems less natural to me, and introducing another button would make archery a lot more complicated.

Also the delay between seeing an opponent and firing is useful, no-one likes getting shot with anything with no chance to defend against it. It would lead to a lot of "ninja" shots and archer battles would never end.

 

[Maksim125]

Good idea, I like it.

 

[Ferago]

Interesting idea. I really hate archer duels as they are now, it just looks stupid seeing both people strafing from side to side 'feinting' arrows.

 

[Seawied86]

I quite like the simplicity of the current system, one click to draw and fire, right mouse to cancel. Having to click twice seems less natural to me, and introducing another button would make archery a lot more complicated.

Also the delay between seeing an opponent and firing is useful, no-one likes getting shot with anything with no chance to defend against it. It would lead to a lot of "ninja" shots and archer battles would never end.

I agree with this. No double click system please. The current archery system feels very intuitive and I feel they definitely got it right.

 

[Kiss_of_Judas]

I quite like the simplicity of the current system, one click to draw and fire, right mouse to cancel. Having to click twice seems less natural to me, and introducing another button would make archery a lot more complicated.

Also the delay between seeing an opponent and firing is useful, no-one likes getting shot with anything with no chance to defend against it. It would lead to a lot of "ninja" shots and archer battles would never end.

I agree with this. No double click system please. The current archery system feels very intuitive and I feel they definitely got it right.

Please be more careful when you read my posts.

What I am proposing is NOT a new system, it is merely a copy of crossbow system which does have double clicks so I dont know why it would be so unnatural to some people.

 

[AWdeV]

I'm not sure if this would reduce time required but could make for a nice aesthetic change. In other words; having a bow in hand means you automatically have an arrow too untill you shoot it/put the bow away. Grab 'em both at the same time, seems sensible. No need for a 2-click system either, really.

 

[Horsa]

Might be a good idea if changing from meele to ranged weapon takes more than 1 millisecond.

 

[crazyboy11]

I quite like the simplicity of the current system, one click to draw and fire, right mouse to cancel. Having to click twice seems less natural to me, and introducing another button would make archery a lot more complicated.

Also the delay between seeing an opponent and firing is useful, no-one likes getting shot with anything with no chance to defend against it. It would lead to a lot of "ninja" shots and archer battles would never end.

I agree with this. No double click system please. The current archery system feels very intuitive and I feel they definitely got it right.

Please be more careful when you read my posts.

What I am proposing is NOT a new system, it is merely a copy of crossbow system which does have double clicks so I dont know why it would be so unnatural to some people.

I'm well aware of what you are suggesting, I mention in my post that its the very double click idea (or another button and click) which would feel odd. A trained archer would grab their arrow, notch it and draw it in the most fluid motion possible to be as fast as possible. Having to "load" an arrow to the string seems, to me, like something a novice archer or hunter would do. Neither really feature in this game.

The crossbow, being a different weapon, works well with the two click system because reloading a crossbow is no simple task. You have to lower your crossbow and stand on it in order to draw the string back and then carefully place the bolt in position. The bow however can stay in a firing position pointing at the enemy at all times.

Moving away from realism to game design, adding extra key presses that do little simulate realism or improve the gameplay makes no sense.

 

[Kiss_of_Judas]

OK, how about this than:

There would not be any extra mouse clicks for archers but if you canceled the attack the arrow would remain on your bow?

 

[KillerMongoose]

I like the idea, and I think the people who don't want it changed are the cancel spammers themselves to be honest. Drawing the bow could still be done in a fluid motion but if you just click it once you dont nock and draw it you just nock it. And if you hold the button like you already do you fully knock and draw the arrow. And if you cancel it, the arrow stays on your bow. This way an archer battle would be more - You walk into a building, suddenly you notice an archer on the stairwell. He reaches for an arrow but you, being the smart feller you are had already nocked one. You quickly draw and release before he even nocks his arrow - This would make archer battles more fast-paced and you would be able to shoot someone before they raise their shield sometimes. Not to mention ambushes would be quicker as you just draw and release. People are saying that drawing the bow would be like double click or something because you nock it then draw it but thats not true. You knock the bow but if you aren't firing then and there you can just keep the arrow nocked for future protection.

 

[Mr.X]

Overall, wouldn't that lower a bows rate of fire, because they have to click twice to get the shot off?
And frankly, we don't need to lower the bows rate of fire ingame.

 

[ProjectAngel]

If it was a mode you could toggle between then I suppose that would be ok. Click X to switch into ready mode, this pulls an arrow out and readies it in the bow. This then could result in either an increase in accuracy or rate of fire and a hindrance to movement speed.

 

[Kiss_of_Judas]

Original post updated.

 

[Mr.X]

If it was a mode you could toggle between then I suppose that would be ok. Click X to switch into ready mode, this pulls an arrow out and readies it in the bow. This then could result in either an increase in accuracy or rate of fire and a hindrance to movement speed.

But then we have that finicky x key thingy. Like half the time I press x ingame it doesn't do what I want it to. For several reasons.

Why change the archery system? It's balanced and works perfectly as it is now.

 

[ProjectAngel]

I'm not fussed if it was to change or not to be honest, I was just thinking that using a key to toggle a mode on and off, like with throwing weapons, would be better than clicking some crazy combination on your mouse.