Archer cheese still alive and well in 2022?

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I just cant think of many game, that I have played, that doesnt have a ton of exploits or obvious Metas.

I think a game like Cities skyline is a good game, despite the fact that money is a total non-issue.
Kenshi is another game that I like despite the fact that it is insanely easy to break in every aspect.
Hell, I think it gave CKIII an extra charm that it had some really imbalanced features spread around. It gave an extra incentive to try different approaches.

And....I liked Warband..... despite the fact that it was a complete cheesefest. "Challenge", in Warband terms was basically just a codeword for soloing.
Name me 3 tactics or strategy games, released after 2010, where a single troop type is unintentionally twice as good as every other troop type in the game at EVERYTHING.

Even in Warband, the famous Swadian Knight may have been amazing in open field battles but had a strong competitor with Sarranid Mamlukes, and in sieges or uneven terrain was inferior to Nord Huscarls, Rhodok Sergeants, Khergit Lancers and Vaegir Knights.

In Bannerlord, the Khan's Guard is twice as good as everyone else in open field battles, uneven ground battles, and siege battles.
Again, from my perspective, it is just not a major problem that there is one option that is stricktly better than everything else.
The balance of the game being broken is a legitimate problem for a lot of people who want a challenging immersive experience, so unless you are going to give an actual, real reason why the game shouldn't be balanced, you should just shut up.

Otherwise your whole argument is "the game should be worse for other people because I don't care about the same things as them."
It is the lack of those reasonable alternatives, ie. underperforming infantry and cavalry, that has been the problem so fare.
I addressed this in my first reply to you. https://forums.taleworlds.com/index...l-alive-and-well-in-2022.454081/#post-9830758 Cavalry are not underperforming now. They are strong now.

It is Khan's Guard who are overperforming because they are twice as good as the balanced, realistic, specialised units.
 
We just have way different personal experiences when it comes to Battania. To me it is by fare my prefered farming ground, tightly clustered and really easy to farm.

The issue I have is that the archer damage has to be fixed.

There should also be a penalty for retreating as well, based on the feedback on the thread.
 
Even in Warband, the famous Swadian Knight may have been amazing in open field battles but had a strong competitor with Sarranid Mamlukes, and in sieges or uneven terrain was inferior to Nord Huscarls, Rhodok Sergeants, Khergit Lancers and Vaegir Knights.

In Bannerlord, the Khan's Guard is twice as good as everyone else in open field battles, uneven ground battles, and siege battles.

There's a case to be made that the Fian Champion is to the Khan's Guard what the Sarranid Mamluke was to the Swadian Knight. One is a foot archer vs another which is a horse archer, but it is an interesting comparison.

The Fian is worse at field battles, but has a better bow and wins when the Khan's Guard is dismounted, making it better at sieges, where the large glaive that the Khan's guard has doesn't do well in close quarters.
 
There's a case to be made that the Fian Champion is to the Khan's Guard what the Sarranid Mamluke was to the Swadian Knight. One is a foot archer vs another which is a horse archer, but it is an interesting comparison.

The Fian is worse at field battles, but has a better bow and wins when the Khan's Guard is dismounted, making it better at sieges, where the large glaive that the Khan's guard has doesn't do well in close quarters.
Fians are hands down better for sieges; you can just use them to clear the walls and its gameover for the defenders. (in fairness, sieges are pretty easy regardless of what you use as long as you have enough of it)

And in Warband, archers (more like crossbowmen) were the number one choice to use for....clearing the wall and gameover the defenders.
 
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There's a case to be made that the Fian Champion is to the Khan's Guard what the Sarranid Mamluke was to the Swadian Knight. One is a foot archer vs another which is a horse archer, but it is an interesting comparison.

The Fian is worse at field battles, but has a better bow and wins when the Khan's Guard is dismounted, making it better at sieges, where the large glaive that the Khan's guard has doesn't do well in close quarters.
Now troops space themselves out better in patch 1.9, longer weapons perform better in close quarters. Besides the two-handed sword Fians use is not that much shorter than the Glaive anyway, and has worse damage.
Fians are hands down better for sieges; you can just use them to clear the walls and its gameover for the defenders. (in fairness, sieges are pretty easy regardless of what you use as long as you have enough of it)
Khan's Guards are also easily capable of clearing the walls, as well as actually going in and killing any enemies not in the wall directly with their Glaives better than the Fians can with their swords. So they are still the better choice for sieges or at the very least just as good, while also being better in every other way. Meaning you have no reason to pick Fians over KGs.

When fighting in an open field, Khans will defeat Fians 60-8.
And in Warband, archers (more like crossbowmen) were the number one choice to use for....clearing the wall and gameover the defenders.
Nope. Armor actually worked in that game. Archers would often not even have enough ammo left to get kills by the time they'd broken the attackers' or defenders' shields at the front of the gap in the wall.
Discussion is over. Stop replying to my post and I shall graciously do the same for you.
Yes, the discussion is over because you have provided no arguments for why the game shouldn't be balanced - I'm glad we're on the same page.
 
Kenshi is another game that I like despite the fact that it is insanely easy to break in every aspect.

The "exploits" in kenshi are actually fun to use, and aren't automatically the best option for every player. Sure you can break the game by putting contraband in the backpack of a guy you're carrying, but that feels well within the spirit of the game, which actively encourages theft and deception. You can tell that the developer knew these exploits existed but chose not to patch them out, because they worked well as game mechanics.

On the other hand, In warband and bannerlord (and cities skylines) most of the exploits undermine the game. The archer thing doesnt really require extra skill, just irl time and patience. Same with the smithing. Not all exploits are the same.
 
It just CANT be that hard to just change the arrows/bolts/bows and crossbows damage to half of it currents damage. This would fix everything
 
There just shouldn't be such a high% of nobles/top-tier units in any army composition. If KG's are the absolute top-tier, I shouldn't be facing pitched battles of 1000v1000 where nearly ~25% is all KG's; not enough of a bell curve in the troop compositions.
If they aren't fixing it at that angle, they either have to reduce the power of KG's or have their price/availability better reflect that (and subsequent tweaks to not make Khuzait obsolete). The same applies to the other factions too, be it the Fians, Cataphracts, etc...they feel way too top-heavy; especially when the battles in the game are already a massive grindfest.
 
The "exploits" in kenshi are actually fun to use, and aren't automatically the best option for every player. Sure you can break the game by putting contraband in the backpack of a guy you're carrying, but that feels well within the spirit of the game, which actively encourages theft and deception. You can tell that the developer knew these exploits existed but chose not to patch them out, because they worked well as game mechanics.

On the other hand, In warband and bannerlord (and cities skylines) most of the exploits undermine the game. The archer thing doesnt really require extra skill, just irl time and patience. Same with the smithing. Not all exploits are the same.
Yes, agreed. If we ignore things like stealth/stealing (but that was also something you can easily choose not to exploit) then it can be a fun sport in it self to game Kenshi.

I dont agree with you that it really undermined cities skyline, the real challenge of the game just switched to traffic management instead.

When you say the archer thing I am supposing that you mean retreat and reengage (archer cheese). Yes, it can but again it only affect you if you choose to exploit it (dont). In Warband, no-one liked seiges and the difficulty could vary wildly between factions so it is hardly surprising that archer cheese was a, probably, popular strategy. I cheese the political system in Bannerlord for the same reason; I just dont like how it function so I treat it as an influence tax instead. (that way I dont have to pester everyone with infinite treads about how terrible the political system is; win-win for everyone)
 
To confirm my earlier statements I did two tests with 100 Khan's Guard and 100 Fian Champions attacking an Empire army of 100 T3 Militia Veteran Archers/Spearmen on Ain Baliq Castle, with 1 catapult/ballista per side, wall level 3, and a siege tower and ram. I did not participate in the fight.

The Fian Champions pushed the tower and ram up and won with 35 casualties.

The Khan's Guard pushed the tower and ram up and won with 22 casualties.

Next 2 tests: No tower, no ram.

The Fian Champions used ladders and won with 6 casualties.

The Khan's Guard used ladders and won with 6 casualties.

This confirms my suspicions that Khan's Guard are better (or at least just as good as) every unit in the game at everything. In theory they are worse than Fians in a straight fight if you dismount them and make them run into battle, but you would never do that.

It also shows that it's a good thing Taleworlds are planning on making ladders easier to push down!
 
The issue I have is that the archer damage has to be fixed.

There should also be a penalty for retreating as well, based on the feedback on the thread.
the retreat penalty will eventually come... We had it forever in Warband, no reason to not have it here too

To confirm my earlier statements I did two tests with 100 Khan's Guard and 100 Fian Champions attacking an Empire army of 100 T3 Militia Veteran Archers/Spearmen on Ain Baliq Castle, with 1 catapult/ballista per side, wall level 3, and a siege tower and ram. I did not participate in the fight.

The Fian Champions pushed the tower and ram up and won with 35 casualties.

The Khan's Guard pushed the tower and ram up and won with 22 casualties.

Next 2 tests: No tower, no ram.

The Fian Champions used ladders and won with 6 casualties.

The Khan's Guard used ladders and won with 6 casualties.

This confirms my suspicions that Khan's Guard are better (or at least just as good as) every unit in the game at everything. In theory they are worse than Fians in a straight fight if you dismount them and make them run into battle, but you would never do that.
was that a single run or did you test multiple times to get an actual average!??! - if it was only once with each than you didn't confirm anything because even Strat's constantly trying to create large samples so it's assured consistency - it's a 101 rule for statistic or sample analyzis.
It also shows that it's a good thing Taleworlds are planning on making ladders easier to push down!
Agreed, ladders are an awful cheese - in fact I often deliberately build nothing on some sieges because the ladders end up being more effective than towers depending on the defending faction / settlement architecture.
 
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was that a single run or did you test multiple times to get an actual average!??! - if it was only once with each than you didn't confirm anything because even Strat's constantly trying to create large samples so it's assured consistency - it's a 101 rule for statistic or sample analyzis.
Does it really matter. One could also just focus on the things that actually matter for sieges and...maybe not take losses perhaps.
 
Does it really matter. One could also just focus on the things that actually matter for sieges and...maybe not take losses perhaps.
It's a basic rule of statistics - too many varibles can come into play and interfere on results - take a look at Strat Gaming's videos and you'll notice he'll often make multiple tests of the same battle set to achieve more precise results. It's a way of making sure "luck" wasn't a factor
My guess' that on sieges both F. Champs and K. Guards are virtually the same.
When I took Fians' side it wasn't looking at a single sphere (their combat efficiency) but rather a sum of all factors.

Fians:
  • don't require mounts for upgrade
  • can be gathered from Vlandian, Battanian, Sturgian and Western Empire territories reliably through forest bandits
  • stationary archers outperform moving mounted archers on accuracy
Khan's Guards:
  • require mounts for upgrade multiple times
  • can only be gathered within Khuzait territory
  • are identical on Fian's accuracy when stationary
  • increase overall party speed
  • can be used for mobile battle tactics
The question is: when do we really need mobile tactics? And if Battanian culture gives one of the best cultural feats, why concern with mobility on open spaces when a single perk will make you recruit way more fians much quicker? - it'll still be a matter of preference, but while a single KG costs us thousands of gold, a single fian only costs their natural upgrade pays - and if I'm not mistaken, non-cavalry units require less wages too.
 
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It's a basic rule of statistics - too many varibles can come into play and interfere on results - take a look at Strat Gaming's videos and you'll notice he'll often make multiple tests of the same battle set to achieve more precise results. It's a way of making sure "luck" wasn't a factor
My guess' that on sieges both F. Champs and K. Guards are virtually the same.
In practice they are not. You use them to pew pew stuff with (Fians good)

Think about it from a practical perspective, Khuzait is in middle of nowhere, correction, at the end of nowhere. Any reasonably sensible player using KGs is going to be fairly conservative about taking losses. Its just another fictional scenario that has no real practical merit in the game.

Sieges are won fast, and at minimal cost, by bringing large numbers (of which your Fians or KG are going be a very small part).
 
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All ranged units can blast defenders at the ladder area, not just KG and Fians. It's because of how the defender AI tries to send reinforcements from one side to another and exposes itself faster, causing a loop of defenders turning to move and getting shot, then the opens on the other side being "told" to go reinforce that side and so on. Somewhere it was asked to "name 10 strategy games..." I'm gonna say ALL OF EM because every game has better units, most just have a opportunity or recourse expense to compensate, for instance You CAN defeat all units with only knights in a AOE type game it's just more expensive and wasteful. Khans guards also have required resources and opportunity over other units but I think we all agree to ignore this for Bannerlord because as a single player game against the AI we have all the opportunity and recourse gathering we need. That said, there are always players who can't manage to pay for their basic 50 man parties too.
 
All ranged units can blast defenders at the ladder area, not just KG and Fians. It's because of how the defender AI tries to send reinforcements from one side to another and exposes itself faster, causing a loop of defenders turning to move and getting shot, then the opens on the other side being "told" to go reinforce that side and so on. Somewhere it was asked to "name 10 strategy games..." I'm gonna say ALL OF EM because every game has better units, most just have a opportunity or recourse expense to compensate, for instance You CAN defeat all units with only knights in a AOE type game it's just more expensive and wasteful. Khans guards also have required resources and opportunity over other units but I think we all agree to ignore this for Bannerlord because as a single player game against the AI we have all the opportunity and recourse gathering we need. That said, there are always players who can't manage to pay for their basic 50 man parties too.
I occasionally employ fian tactics even with full RBM - it isn't simply a matter of AI, but the overall effectiveness of a relatively cheap troop.
For a "manual" speedruns (where "auto-resolve" isn't allowed) most if not all agree that fians are better. If you look at strat's videos where he does power-runs for like "under a month in-game kingdom" or stuff like that (where he speedruns not real time but rather in-game time) - fians are always the choice due to how the overall mechanics work and end up favoring it.

With 1.9, now, KGs are exceptionally expensive (and in RBM too) due to horse pricing and needing multiple horses on their upgrade path - fians skip all of that - that means you'll economize hundreds of thousands of denars on both wages + upgrades to reach a Fian doomstack, whereas with KG you might not even have enough buck to field them - delaying it and also expanding the amount of grind needed to achieve a very similar level of results.

I agree that KGs are broken (they should have weaknesses, and they do not) - Fians are somewhat balanced but the lack of t6 infantry makes them slightly OP because both KG and Fians will do a better job on foot as shock-troops than all of the available top shock troops (Line breakers, menavilons and mameluke palace guards) - Vlandian shock troops are strong as they are durable, but their Voulge's not good at all, so they are the least desirable on that regard.

Than comes the cavalry issues - in which swingable polearms are particularly good for AI, whereas spears and lances are not - My supposition as to the reasons are plenty, and they do not limit upon dmg&speed - It's also a matter of how AI calculates distance for attacks (which's bad for anything above 150 length) + the offset hitboxes for all spears on horseback, I did a comparative run to make sure that was what was going on and I was right - I tested the same reticle placement for lances on Warband and Bannerlord, in WB it's dead center, while in BL it's off-set and you'll miss bullseye hits.

This leads to a sum of factiors that make lance/spear cav so bad in BL:
  • Spear/Lances attack speed
  • Spear/Lances length
  • Spear/Lances dmg
  • Spear/Lances off-set hitbox on horseback
  • Push-away effect from cavalry over foot troops (moving them even further out of the attack)
  • AI not maneuvering to reposition their stab to land (they only go for straight lines)
Again, fixing it is tricky as long as TW refuses to adjust all factors on a single strike, that because,in example, if they fix speed and later down the line fix the hitbox, spears will automatically become OP on horseback calling for further adjustments that will potentially create new issues and it becomes an endless domino effect.
My personal take on it is that they should fix the hit-boxes first - test, than adjust the AI. After that if it's still too weak or too OP, adjust the easier to modify things until hitting a sweet-spot (like length speed and dmg)

So it's entirely possible that by fixing cavalry issues in general, KG's will automatically become less OP too - which means nerfing them would be nonsensical.

As for spears on foot it's easy: reduce the length of spears meant to be used on foot, add more pikes - create specialized units for each role. From their system that governs weapons alone, reducing the length of spears will automatically make them faster with more dmg - meaning there's no need to fine tune anything at all. - from my testing spears with up to 160 length work fine for AI, anything above that screws them. If on top of that they add more swingable spears for foot troops, I believe it'll make for spot-on balance. Also by having pike specialists under the pike weapon class, it's easier to call AI to switch weapons under certain distance or when facing foot troops, all while without screwing polearm troops in the process and allowing foot troops to also have long weapons for anti-cav tactics.

Lastly, the lack of t6 infantry unit's also hurting the game - I already said once and will insist on it: Make the druzhina into foot troops.... Bam, problem solved. - or at bare minimum make AI often use dismount command on them.... (try that for yourself and you'll see that they are already built for infantry roles, it's crazy)
 
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All ranged units can blast defenders at the ladder area, not just KG and Fians. It's because of how the defender AI tries to send reinforcements from one side to another and exposes itself faster, causing a loop of defenders turning to move and getting shot, then the opens on the other side being "told" to go reinforce that side and so on. Somewhere it was asked to "name 10 strategy games..." I'm gonna say ALL OF EM because every game has better units, most just have a opportunity or recourse expense to compensate, for instance You CAN defeat all units with only knights in a AOE type game it's just more expensive and wasteful. Khans guards also have required resources and opportunity over other units but I think we all agree to ignore this for Bannerlord because as a single player game against the AI we have all the opportunity and recourse gathering we need. That said, there are always players who can't manage to pay for their basic 50 man parties too.
If you look across the various grand strategy games I think one of the most typical requests/complaints that come up tend to be "buff tall!" (not nerf wide). People tend to like more options.
 
If you look across the various grand strategy games I think one of the most typical requests/complaints that come up tend to be "buff tall!" (not nerf wide). People tend to like more options.
that's my take because incessant nerfing eventually destroys choices. BL already suffers from it regarding economy.

PS: read my WOT - I believe it's an interesting discussion!
 
that's my take because incessant nerfing eventually destroys choices. BL already suffers from it regarding economy.

PS: read my WOT - I believe it's an interesting discussion!
I does, or often it just risks making things really bland.

2% increased damage!!! Uhhhu NICE!!!
 
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