Archer cheese still alive and well in 2022?

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Yes, that's what I said. Your stance is
"Taleworlds should only do things that benefits ME and not anything that benefits anyone else." That's why nobody should listen to your take here - because you don't care about making the game more fun for everyone, and can't give any good reasons why this problem shouldn't be fixed.
ME. As a player!

I have already given the one important reason why it is not something that critically needs to be adressed: It only affect you if you choose to exploit it!

There are a ton of exploits available in Bannerlord. The vast majority of which I choose not to exploit, archer cheese among them, and then there are a few that I do choose to exploit, most notably burning through my vassals influence to control the political system.


Why is it so hard for you to just say "ok, this is too OP/too cheesy/too... for my taste, I am not going to exploit it".
 
ME. As a player!

I have already given the one important reason why it is not something that critically needs to be adressed: It only affect you if you choose to exploit it!

There are a ton of exploits available in Bannerlord. The vast majority of which I choose not to exploit, archer cheese among them, and then there are a few that I do choose to exploit, most notably burning through my vassals influence to control the political system.


Why is it so hard for you to just say "ok, this is too OP/too cheesy/too... for my taste, I am not going to exploit it".
Your arguments are silly in my opinion, and are steeped in a simply negative vision of the game. That appear in bad faith.

The reason Devs generally should and do strive to eliminate exploits in all games is because games are challenges existing within the framework of rules and limitations.
These limitation provide the challenge and thus the opportunity for the expression of skill and mastery.
Mastery and expression of skill is a large reason people find video games fun.
To overcome challenging situations through skills learnt and creative chioces made is satisfying. If this process is made reduntant by exploits or obvious best choices, this satisfaction is taken away from the player to some extent.
I can set my own rules of course, but I can also play in the mud outside and make up challenges in my head. A video games is a curated experience made by professionals to tickle my pschological buttons (The good ones anyway)

Your argument "Devs shouldnt bother to fix exploit A because exploit B, C and D will still exist anyway" is obviously daft circular logic.

The same is true for obvious balance issues and particularly balance outliers.

Furthermore whatever your issues with the changes to the smithing system after nerf, are just that issues with those changes. To then argue that "other changes shouldnt be made because this one time it didnt go the way I prefer" is an argument made in the negative. You could instead argue positively for the conveniences you want in smithing. Here instead you are trying to starve of oxygen @five bucks expressed desire for balance changes in case the Devs mess it up?

Like I dont blame you for your lack of faith in certain choices made by Devs, but then to come on the forums and post back and forth as though you are argueing points reasoned.
This tendency for some people to post their feeling about how they think Devs should prioritise Development time, away from issues someone else raises in a thread, so that time may instead be allocated to whatever this persons pressing issues may be, is not constrictive its insecure. Then to pass off that expression of preference as reasoned argument is...
 
Your arguments are silly in my opinion, and are steeped in a simply negative vision of the game. That appear in bad faith.
My personal opinion is incredibly simple; there are other issues that are more beneficial to adress.

I am not going to bother with bad faith type arguments or any other variants of personal attacks. We can agree to disagree. That is it.

Edit: And you are very mistaken if you thing that I have no faith in the Devs. It might have been a slower process than most of us would have liked but by and large it is my, personal, opinion that they have moved, for the most parts, in the right direction.
 
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It does not matter how good they are. You are not going to meet them in significant numbers on the field.

What matters is how good the other classes, infantry and cavalry, are in the hands of the player. I just do not see Fians or KGs as particularly overpowered, rather the other classes are underpowered (I have not tried 1.9 yet).

I've fought in battles where 25% of the enemy units were noble.
 
I've fought in battles where 25% of the enemy units were noble.
I have fought imperial parties with 80% cavalry!

But it was all low tier stuff recently recruited from those nearby villages that happend to be castlebound. So no, it was not really a challenge.The few times I am actually challenged, a bit, is when I go up against a faction that have either enjoyed a period of peace or had good fortune in war. Those can sometimes have some really beefy parties packed full of high tier units. But that is just a matter of high average quality rather than a question of nobles or not.
 
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When I fought the fight where 25 percent of the enemy were nobles, many of them were Fian and Fian Champions. Those were a big challenge.


There were almost no nobles from non Battanian culture in that army.


Those Fian units are a threat because they are a substantial percentage of the total army size.
 
When I fought the fight where 25 percent of the enemy were nobles, many of them were Fian and Fian Champions. Those were a big challenge.


There were almost no nobles from non Battanian culture in that army.


Those are a threat because they are a substantial percentage of the total army size.
We just have way different personal experiences when it comes to Battania. To me it is by fare my prefered farming ground, tightly clustered and really easy to farm.
 
We just have way different personal experiences when it comes to Battania. To me it is by fare my prefered farming ground, tightly clustered and really easy to farm.
Since release I got the impression most ppl would go Battania - not sure if for the cheese, the theme, or whatever tf.
Than we had Vikings TV show ragnar fanbois going Sturgia (which's a fail considering they are not like the Nords from WB and are objectively the worst faction in the game both on troops and territory)
Than we had the meta guys, who'd pick khuzait for the cheese / empire for the considerable bigger territory.

I personally don't like Battania, but often play it because it's easier (extra recruitment from perks + fians = dommstack; topped off with the best cultural feat for the entirety of a playthrough - moving faster in forests in a map littered with forests); Than I pick empire sometimes for meta reasons, specially when playing campaign, yet I've tested thoroughly and their territory's not good, their best town being Ortysia which loses on meta to Marunath (Battanian), Seonon (Battanian), Jaculan (Vlandian) and Sanala (Aserai) - Sanala being the best fief on the entire game.
In fact, there's a really strong bias towards Battanians for PC pick from TW itself (meta reasons), followed by Vlandia for AI (always incredibly strong) and Khuzait (best troop in the game with extremely fast mobility)

The game's considerably bad when it comes to balance, although they've mitigated the blatant nature of it over these 2 years, battania and khuzait still holds the strongest troops in the game due to ranged bias, Vlandia still tends to destroy other AI cultures due to how auto-resolve works, and Empire still holds the biggest stable territory due to their measures to mitigate snowballing with the "loyalty penalties" applied to wrong culture fiefs (and empire culture owning like 1/3 of the map) - all while they've literally and blatantly kept Sturgia extremely handicapped by both territory distribution, crap economy and bad troops. If I'm not mistaken, sturgia actually owns the least amount of villages compared to all other factions, yet they've never addressed it (probably the chronic issue of sturgia being wiped could've been easily fixed by simply giving them a more fair ground when it comes to territory distribution and fiefs)
 
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Since release I got the impression most ppl would go Battania - not sure if for the cheese, the theme, or whatever tf.
Than we had Vikings TV show ragnar fanbois going Sturgia (which's a fail considering they are not like the Nords from WB)
Than we had the meta guys, who'd pick khuzait for the cheese / empire for the considerable bigger territory.

I personally don't like Battania, but often play it because it's easier (extra recruitment from perks + fians = dommstack; topped off with the best cultural feat for the entirety of a playthrough - moving faster in forests in a map littered with forests)
Personally being Battanian has alot going for it (played that more than any other myself)

As an opponent though it would definitely not be in my top 3 list of "factions I fear to fight the most". More like in the low end, I feel it is one of the weaker factions overall.
 
Personally being Battanian has alot going for it (played that more than any other myself)

As an opponent though it would definitely not be in my top 3 list of "factions I fear to fight the most". More like in the low end, I feel it is one of the weaker factions overall.
as I've said while editing the reply like a maniac: Battania's the best PC faction, entirely TW bias' fault - AI would be Vlandia and Khuzait - all others are pretty normal to deal with, in fact battania's considerably weak on AI hands.

What makes them so OP for PC are it's natural feats + territory (if the player goes full meta on conquest, ideally they'd replace Battania with their own faction from the get-go) - the reason being a combo of better movement on campaign map (forest debuff mitigation) which allows us to trap enemies or flee with ease - followed by 2 of the best towns (Marunath + Seonon) for prosperity gain + one of the best trade bound towns (Dunglanys), extra militia from cultural feat + packed territory, finally the best archers in the game where the meta is archery (mounted or on foot). It's simply impossible to argue against them having the best grounds for players on every single aspect.
The only negative from Battania, at least for me, is that their architecture looks like arse, and their cultural clothing tries to mimic scottish plaid fabric very poorly making it look like arse too (mainly because the game only allows for dual-color patterns on banners)

Khuzaits and Vlandians shine on AI hands, though, and will often dominate other AI cultures with ease. Reasons behind that are also cultural feats + troops + how auto-resolve works.

Now, visually speaking, my favorite architectures are in fact Sturgian, Vlandian and Aserai in that order - while cultural items none sing much to me, at least sturgia and aserai keep a nice theme which makes it more compelling. Khuzait I like their clothing and armor but dislike their architecture (I think the colors with the game lightning make it a disfavor, specially considering they've disregarded that historically all cultures would paint their walls - not leave the materials exposed like arses waiting for humidity to destroy their buildings).
Empire looks off - it's like having a "roman revival" during the middle-ages - their architecture makes no sense yet at least it has a memorable theme to it. I'd expect Empire's buildings to look more like ancient Byzantine - but unfortunately that's not the case at all. Their towns look like abandoned ancient roman settlements with overgrown grass and little ot no maintenance + using dated and inefficient architecture for their military buildings. - that reminds me - the mountain between Rhotae and Lageta should've been made a volcano, I mean, it's the geographical shape and it would make sense since the Romans did in fact have Vesuvio within their territory - never understood the choice of making a volcano shaped landscape and call it a mountain
 
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as I've said while editing the reply like a maniac: Battania's the best PC faction, entirely TW bias' fault - AI would be Vlandia and Khuzait - all others are pretty normal to deal with, in fact battania's considerably weak on AI hands.

What makes them so OP for PC are it's natural feats + territory (if the player goes full meta on conquest, ideally they'd replace Battania with their own faction from the get-go) - the reason being a combo of better movement on campaign map (forest debuff mitigation) which allows us to trap enemies or flee with ease - followed by 2 of the best towns (Marunath + Seonon) for prosperity gain + one of the best trade bound towns (Dunglanys), extra militia from cultural feat + packed territory, finally the best archers in the game where the meta is archery (mounted or on foot). It's simply impossible to argue against them having the best grounds for players on every single aspect.
I dont think this is actually "the" Meta, however it it definitely my prefered choice.
- Fians are great
- The culture bonus is the best
- The area is very concentrated and quite central; so good for both farming enemy lords (and, in my experience Battanians are easy pray Fians or no), recruiting troops and later getting some towns (same as those you suggest)

If you really want to Meta then you would probably go Battania for the culture bonus but still recruit KGs.

Edit: One more thing perhaps (if talking about metas). Ananda_The_Destroyer once said something that made alot sense to me, which suggest that the best strategy might actually be to hold only one town. I havnt tried it though I always go with 3 towns, force of habit.
 
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I care about how many viable alternatives I have at my disposal. Not whether one of these options is strickly better than all others.

My position on KGs is precisely the same as my position on e.g smithing. As long as there are reasonably viable options available, it does not really matter.

And I for one have never in my life played a game were there wasnt at least one strategy, tactic, unit or something else that wasnt dramatically superior to all others. TW should spend their ressources providing more viable alternatives, not on nerfing the alternatives that are viable.

Edit. Smithing is the perfect example of why this nerfing logic is so damn misguided. The constant nerfs have helped absolutely no one. For those who want smithing as a means of making money it has probably been turned into "try a day in the life of a chinese goldfarmer". For the rest of us who just wanted it as a quick neat little thing to make some tailormade gear... it has become completely and utterly useless...
Eh it's pretty easy to change NPC gear, just requires editing an .xml file or two.

That said from the couple hundred hours I spent trying to balance and tune things to my liking, along with RBM, I basically came to the conclusion any semblance of real balance is impossible in Bannerlord. Too many weapons to account for and as I have mentioned there's a severe lack of leg/arm armor in-game. You'd be surprised how much of a difference a slightly better set of boots will make for a calvary unit's "survivability". The other problem is you have to run a lot of tests to get true results and terrain often has a bigger impact then you'd think. You need to run a battle at least 20 times (50 or 100 is better) to know what the average/typical results will be.

Which for me just got to be too time consuming.

But there's no excuse for TW. Especially when it's just one unit and they've modified plenty of other units willy nilly in the past. It's also been this way for a long while, it's not like they just gave KG the glaive a few months ago. Actually it's been years now hasn't it? Stuff like this really makes me question TW's competency as a game developer.


Like Fian Champions are a very strong unit, but they can be defeated. Actually as of 1.9 a balanced army of infantry, archers, and cavalry would probably fare pretty well against an all Fian party.

Now yes in the hands of the A.I. Khans Guards aren't an issue because they really only go into melee when out of ammo. But for any player who "knows" - they are outrageously broken. I'm guessing the issue is TW can't decide to give them a spear or sword, spear is good for horse back, but terrible on foot. And sword is good for on foot, but less so on horse back.

RozBritanicus said:


May be the for retreating you lose some troops anyway like 5%. Realistically you would lose some, some would be killed, and some would leave and go home.
In theory that sounds good, but Bannerlord is prone to too many glitches - so I'd like to keep the penalty relatively mild in the event someone needs to retreat to auto-resolve.

Also with 1.9 I don't think Archer only is particularly viable anymore. So my whole post may be somewhat mute. Still Retreat is something that's way too easy to abuse as is. Actually might be worse with Horse Archers and Skirmisher Cavalry - basically unlimited javelins.
 
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But there's no excuse for TW. Especially when it's just one unit and they've modified plenty of other units willy nilly in the past. It's also been this way for a long while, it's not like they just gave KG the glaive a few months ago. Actually it's been years now hasn't it? Stuff like this really makes me question TW's competency as a game developer.
The KG is probably not build with balance in mind. I would guess it got the glaive to make it different and it just happen to be the case that glaives are actually something that works on horseback.
 
The KG is probably not build with balance in mind. I would guess it got the glaive to make it different and it just happen to be the case that glaives are actually something that works on horseback.
So I went down the rabbit hole and modded the Khuzait Noble Line so that:

1. It is a 1 stack arrow horse archer (gives regular Khuzait Horse Archers a reason to exist by having 2 stacks)
2. Has a spear/lance and then a saber as a sidearm

bTVSq0n.png


My limited testing saw them perform them quite well against both shielded infantry and archers (Fian Champions stand no chance against them) while skirmishing, and they are competent enough in melee to finish off infantry stragglers when out of arrows.

However without their glaive they really don't stand much of a chance against any melee cavalry at their own tier, even manually guiding them they are lucky to beat any tier 6 melee cavalry. However I believe this is appropriate as horse archers should not beat melee cavalry, unless they are much higher level. Horse archers exist to bully infantry, but their weakness should be other cavalry. They already benefit enough being extra archers in any siege IMO.

It seems especially stupid that Khuzait Heavy Lancers would not be able to defeat Khuzait Kheshig, when they can easily defeat Khuzait Heavy Horse Archers.


The only downside to this is making the Khuzait Noble line "generalists" - they aren't particularly good at any one thing anymore. But Torguuds, Kheshigs, and Khan's Guard with glaives are just straight up broken as soon as they enter melee. How that doesn't create more problems in battles with the A.I. I don't know (assuming A.I. is just that bad at skirmishing). It's gotta go, cause unless you're "roleplaying" there's basically no reason to not exclusively have Khuzait noble line since they are literally best at everything.
  • You get speed boost on map for cavalry
  • You get a horse archer/shock troop that can deploy quickly anywhere on battle map
  • You get the best melee cavalry in game
  • You get an archer/shock troop for sieges, which only really struggles in offense, but will generally overpower any defense
Literally only thing keeping it in check is you need war mounts, but it's not that hard to get war mount. The nerf bat has to come for them.


Ah well I have successfully derailed my own thread; brilliant!
 
I dont think this is actually "the" Meta, however it it definitely my prefered choice.
- Fians are great
- The culture bonus is the best
- The area is very concentrated and quite central; so good for both farming enemy lords (and, in my experience Battanians are easy pray Fians or no), recruiting troops and later getting some towns (same as those you suggest)

If you really want to Meta then you would probably go Battania for the culture bonus but still recruit KGs.

Edit: One more thing perhaps (if talking about metas). Ananda_The_Destroyer once said something that made alot sense to me, which suggest that the best strategy might actually be to hold only one town. I havnt tried it though I always go with 3 towns, force of habit.
The meta's holding up to 4 or 5 towns no castles - but you need to have adequate governors for each + battanian culture
Fians are meta on player's hands, you don't even need to move in a map, just spam fians and hold position - nothing can win, absolutely nothing. If you are against vland just create 2 or 3 formations and make their cav ping-pong between them...
Fians on sieges sum to let them erase all troops on the walls than just telling them to charge when there are only a handful left.

Khan's Guards are the strongest unit but the player doesn't benefit from them as much, the reason being that AI isn't good at moving & shooting - they'll miss most shots which means longer battles where many will be forced into melee... They work great for the AI because the AI doesn't know how to properly set up formations or make tactical decisions. I doubt using Khan's Guards differently from Fians because when stationary their DPS is dozens of times higher. Now - meta is meta and it's never about purist builds, I said battania's the meta because it is, 2 4 village towns, easy access to fians with proper perks, the 2 most powerful cultural feats on player's hands: +1 militia; forest movement. Now, if you doing meta power-gaming, it's obvious that you'll pick up khan's, not doing it is silly considering they'll also add ++ on auto-resolve and ++ on party speed. Than we may or may not chose to pick-up canon fodder for infantry - but that's entirely optional.
Following this meta (fians mostly) you can even single handendly win melee on sieges while you let fians clean up anyone who shows at walls - you can even find videos on this.

So the meta of the game are 2 troop units (Fian Champions and KG) - 4 towns (Jaculan, Marunath, Seonon, Sanala) - 5 low level companions (Healer / Surgeon / Willowbark / Knowing / Scholar [empire culture]) for either governors or party leaders - a handful of decent captains (companions again) - and a handful of useful wives (female nobles) that can either lead parties or be governors.
Than there's the debate between bat and emp as PC culture - but all the negative effects of having Bat can be easily cancelled by proper kingdom policies, which makes emp not that great - It only had something going it's way before they've nerfed negative wages with 1.9 (where it was possible to make garrisons pay you if you were Imperial)

So Battanians gain easy access to higher slots for Fian recruitment - 2 of the meta towns within it's territory & culture - the starter background choices are the best for the player (allowing for both 2h Bow & Medicine) - the most useful cultural feats for the player & it's territory's packed which makes defending it piece of cake for both AI and player.

Now, back to the "single town meta" - that'd be a fallacy but not entirely, it is a sound strategy IF you don't want to train governors - considering we only really need 4 to keep all of the best towns - it's not something hard, and you can actually pick-up temporary comps like Spicevendor if you were lucky on the RNG to fill the shoes of yet leveling govs (though she works best at Sanala - obvsly). - The management of the towns' simple, though - Sanala's the best to house your entire army without starving and it'll shoot above 11k prosperity on it's own, you don't even need to do anything... Marunath, apparently, can hold the most profitable workshops (although to pull that off is a very lengthy effort that I consider waste of time). So the trick is to keep a small garrison in Jaculan for emergency fill-ups by companion parties and a massive one at Sanala which basically works as your reserves and your "never besieged town" because AI never tries to take on massive strong garrisons. Meanwhile, you cash in on militia spawn rate for both Marunath and Seonon and keep the garrisons EMPTY (you won't lose loyalty, and with the proper gov perks it won't lose much security neither) This means you're getting double town income without any expenses - while if you made a good gov for Sanala (wage reduction + taxes) you'll also profit from it - that's 30k +- daily. Even if you flip the best gov possible having a single town, you'll only make up to 10k daily - expenses, not a smart move.

Changing subject: any 2 village towns are complete garbage for the PC - it automatically makes the prosperity cap much lower meaning less taxes, less recruitment slots for replenishing, and less food to actually place a decent garrison in them. 3 Village ones can work but will 100% of the time be lesser choices compared to the 4 village ones. In the list of the best in this category that would be Bhaltakand, Ortysia, Epicrotea and Rhotae - among those Rhotae's garbage compared to the other 3 because it has a neighboring massive bandit spawn which will fk up your villager parties overtime if you aren't patrolling there constantly, the good part of Rhot's that it has better food income due to having 2 wheat villages.
Ortysia and Epicrotea end up being the most profitable of the 4 because both receive a constant spam of caravans (raising tariffs and increasing goods variety) a whooping 8 trade bound villages after conquering the entire regions, all while also having massive potential of workshop productions, both support Smithy + Silversmith - though you must conquer Gersegos castle for your faction before investing on the silver for Epi.
Balthakand will cash in on Wool production, but only if you keep all sheep villages within your faction (bound to castles) - If I'm not mistaken you can trade bind 4 sheep villages total for it which can skyrocket the wool weavery up to 800+ daily on average.

Meanwhile, none of the Sturgian Towns are good - you can make it work IF you manage to keep either Varcheg or Omor at a time - never conquer both, if you do that you'll inevitably bind all villages to one or the other which makes their prosperity skyrocket - yet if you move on to take both later, the town that was awesome will eventually starve and drop back into disgusting prosp again. Simir and Varnovapol are useless - both own 3 villages, but both have ZERO trade bound villages - meaning they will always produce less than the 2 village towns and gain only 18 extra food. Yet, if you MUST GO STURGIA for RP reasons, the only reasonable choice is Tyal, but you can't let your faction take Balthakand in that case - this way you'll move all trade bound villages from Balt to Tyal - yet Tyal will never reach the same levels of prosp due to having 2 villages only (-18 food than Balt; -36 from a 4 village town)

With RBM I've noticed a massive increase on horse village income - but I'm not sure if with vanilla it's the same - in that case Askar's the most profitable town above all others as long as you keep it's nearby castle. Arguably you should keep that caslte for yourself (in that specific case it's worth it because each horse village can make up to 8k daily)

There's a reason why I'm always mad at not being able to skip into mid-game (even made a thread about it), I test everything really thoroughly and extract the game's meta eveyr single time. Currently this is the meta, though Battania has sort of been it since the start of EA, and I hate it - I dislike their fashion & their architecture & their naming, and I don't particularly like their map region geographically. Can't deny they are objectively the best for results.

Aserai's disgustingly handicapped with a ludicrous debuff (increased wages) while it's positive effect's only useful if you're activelly trading - Sturgia does well for early and mid game with it's army buffs, but at late game their feats are insignificant; Khuzaits are decent for combat and campaign map traveling, but suck at total income potential; and empire's good for building and not worrying with kingdom policies (almost 1/3 of the map is their culture) but they destroy village growth which makes prosperity increase much more painful to manage.

Now, if you wanna understand deeper how the entire prosperity game works - it's all about increasing it directly through buffs while increasing village hearts, otherwise the town / castle will starve defining a cap - each village has 3 tiers - +6 food +12 food and +18 food - and towns and casltes are limited to their natural bound villages for these buffs - this means that 4 village towns get whooping +72 food just from their villages existing once they reach 600 hearts each + whatever they sell to the town - while 2 villages only give +36 - that directly translates into prosperity caps because once the town reaches certain prosperity, it'll inevitably start consuming more food than is produced, which will lower the prosperity. It's a hard to see soft cap, but ultimately affects everything in it (tax income - item prices - workshop income - tariffs - troop quality - troop spawn rate) - I've not yet managed to find Sanala's cap, though, seen it go above 12k prosp without taking food hits - but I've seen other towns like Marunath and Seonon struggle once they reach 11k.
 
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There are a ton of exploits available in Bannerlord. The vast majority of which I choose not to exploit, archer cheese among them, and then there are a few that I do choose to exploit, most notably burning through my vassals influence to control the political system.
And that's a good thing how???
A good game is not one that has "a ton of exploits" that you have to actively force yourself to not use in case you accidentally rob yourself of the challenge.
Out of this ton of exploits Khan's Guard being staggeringly OP is one of the biggest AND one of the easiest to fix. So why not do it?
Why is it so hard for you to just say "ok, this is too OP/too cheesy/too... for my taste, I am not going to exploit it".
Why is it so hard for you to read my posts where I have answered this three times?
Why is it so hard to simply take away the one shot kill melee weapon from the Khan's Guard so they do not make every other troop in the game useless?
 
So I went down the rabbit hole and modded the Khuzait Noble Line so that:

1. It is a 1 stack arrow horse archer (gives regular Khuzait Horse Archers a reason to exist by having 2 stacks)
2. Has a spear/lance and then a saber as a sidearm

bTVSq0n.png


My limited testing saw them perform them quite well against both shielded infantry and archers (Fian Champions stand no chance against them) while skirmishing, and they are competent enough in melee to finish off infantry stragglers when out of arrows.

However without their glaive they really don't stand much of a chance against any melee cavalry at their own tier, even manually guiding them they are lucky to beat any tier 6 melee cavalry. However I believe this is appropriate as horse archers should not beat melee cavalry, unless they are much higher level. Horse archers exist to bully infantry, but their weakness should be other cavalry. They already benefit enough being extra archers in any siege IMO.

It seems especially stupid that Khuzait Heavy Lancers would not be able to defeat Khuzait Kheshig, when they can easily defeat Khuzait Heavy Horse Archers.


The only downside to this is making the Khuzait Noble line "generalists" - they aren't particularly good at any one thing anymore. But Torguuds, Kheshigs, and Khan's Guard with glaives are just straight up broken as soon as they enter melee. How that doesn't create more problems in battles with the A.I. I don't know (assuming A.I. is just that bad at skirmishing). It's gotta go, cause unless you're "roleplaying" there's basically no reason to not exclusively have Khuzait noble line since they are literally best at everything.
  • You get speed boost on map for cavalry
  • You get a horse archer/shock troop that can deploy quickly anywhere on battle map
  • You get the best melee cavalry in game
  • You get an archer/shock troop for sieges, which only really struggles in offense, but will generally overpower any defense
Literally only thing keeping it in check is you need war mounts, but it's not that hard to get war mount. The nerf bat has to come for them.


Ah well I have successfully derailed my own thread; brilliant!
Well, against the poor AI we can make virtually anything work. How does one counter Horse Archers? By splitting Fians and making use of cicle & spread formations. The most effective being 4 stacks 2 circles and 2 spread out in square/retangle shapes - move the spread while AI skirmishes into advantageous terrain (can be even a small hill) making all of them unleveled (like a stair of fians) - place a circle where there's the highest degree of their rotation - meanwhile move the other 2 formations on the opposite side - place the circle on high ground and the spread blocking the path of the skirmishes - once the KG's try to flee through the center of both formations they'll be wiped.

KG are only worse than Fians because the combat AI is much less accurate when moving. They win? yes, if you fail to trap them. If instead you trap their army and don't watch for them it's likely they'll flee.

For a mixed army countering KG's not that hard neither - if you have high tier troops you can stack all of them on spread formation and make them follow you, than move slowly to meet with the skirmishers head-on - they'll get wiped.

Playing with KG's, if the AI has enough cav and goes into a "zerg rush" KG's will lose if you keep them on skirmish - again, the best use of archers is with them sitting still - their DPS is off the charts if you do that.

Remember: The objective is to wipe your enemy before they even reach melee range.

finally there's the matter of cost - remember that KG's require horses, multiple times, Fians don't.

now the trick I do use is a mix of both, and I use the KG's high mobility to basically force the AI into bad traps - for recruitment my trick is stacking nomad bandits and forest bandits - and I keep pumping them out and up on the fly never stopping to recruit anything - once I'm almost out of prisoners, I attack some hideouts (preferably doing quest) and make use of increased chance of surrender to take entire bandit parties - I can literally restock under 5 minutes (given I'm nearby their spawns) - this means Fians win again because Nomads only spawn at Khuzait territory.
 
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Now, back to the "single town meta" - that'd be a fallacy but not entirely, it is a sound strategy IF you don't want to train governors - considering we only really need 4 to keep all of the best towns - it's not something hard, and you can actually pick-up temporary comps like Spicevendor if you were lucky on the RNG to fill the shoes of yet leveling govs (though she works best at Sanala - obvsly). - The management of the towns' simple, though - Sanala's the best to house your entire army without starving and it'll shoot above 11k prosperity on it's own, you don't even need to do anything... Marunath, apparently, can hold the most profitable workshops (although to pull that off is a very lengthy effort that I consider waste of time). So the trick is to keep a small garrison in Jaculan for emergency fill-ups by companion parties and a massive one at Sanala which basically works as your reserves and your "never besieged town" because AI never tries to take on massive strong garrisons. Meanwhile, you cash in on militia spawn rate for both Marunath and Seonon and keep the garrisons EMPTY (you won't lose loyalty, and with the proper gov perks it won't lose much security neither) This means you're getting double town income without any expenses - while if you made a good gov for Sanala (wage reduction + taxes) you'll also profit from it - that's 30k +- daily. Even if you flip the best gov possible having a single town, you'll only make up to 10k daily - expenses, not a smart move.
I believe the idea of going with a single town is so you can get more fiefs, along the way, that can then be used to create more clans. Provided you do war, money is just not going to be issue so the income from towns is superfluous.
 
And that's a good thing how???
A good game is not one that has "a ton of exploits" that you have to actively force yourself to not use in case you accidentally rob yourself of the challenge.
Out of this ton of exploits Khan's Guard being staggeringly OP is one of the biggest AND one of the easiest to fix. So why not do it?
I just cant think of many game, that I have played, that doesnt have a ton of exploits or obvious Metas.

I think a game like Cities skyline is a good game, despite the fact that money is a total non-issue.
Kenshi is another game that I like despite the fact that it is insanely easy to break in every aspect.
Hell, I think it gave CKIII an extra charm that it had some really imbalanced features spread around. It gave an extra incentive to try different approaches.

And....I liked Warband..... despite the fact that it was a complete cheesefest. "Challenge", in Warband terms was basically just a codeword for soloing.

A game does not necessarily need to be particularly well balanced inorder to be good. Again, from my perspective, it is just not a major problem that there is one option that is stricktly better than everything else. As long as there are other reasonably viable alternatives; it is the lack of those reasonable alternatives, ie. underperforming infantry and cavalry, that has been the problem so fare.
 
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