Anyone else feel like Attila the Hun when playing Khergits?

[JosieJ]

The Khergits can beat almost literally nobody in any setting. I once had a party of 100, 40 of which were Nord huscarls, and I got into a fight with Sanjar Khan and his horde of 400. He had boatloads of top-tier men and even when circling like madmen I just lined up my huscarls and anything that stepped close died. When we beat away most of the melee fighters I told my men to charge and we killed all the archers. I lost 8 men and had 21 wounded. It's sad because the Khergits are almost more dangerous on foot than they are on horseback.

Exactly.  They're supposed to be a niche faction, but they don't really shine in anything.

...unless, of course, you're playing as that faction.  The Khergits suck when relying on the AI, but when used properly by a player who knows how to work around their weaknesses and utilize their strengths, they can be very strong.

I've heard that a lot, but have played them fairly extensively myself and still have to disagree.  I know it's possible to play and succeed with them.  But compared to the other factions, all things else considered equal(player skill, etc), they are inferior to the other factions in my opinion.

I'm just saying they can be a strong faction.  That's not the same as claiming they're the best faction.  Me, I like them, but they definitely won't appeal to everyone.

 

[Lord Silvabane]

The Khergits can beat almost literally nobody in any setting. I once had a party of 100, 40 of which were Nord huscarls, and I got into a fight with Sanjar Khan and his horde of 400. He had boatloads of top-tier men and even when circling like madmen I just lined up my huscarls and anything that stepped close died. When we beat away most of the melee fighters I told my men to charge and we killed all the archers. I lost 8 men and had 21 wounded. It's sad because the Khergits are almost more dangerous on foot than they are on horseback.

Exactly.  They're supposed to be a niche faction, but they don't really shine in anything.

...unless, of course, you're playing as that faction.  The Khergits suck when relying on the AI, but when used properly by a player who knows how to work around their weaknesses and utilize their strengths, they can be very strong.

I've heard that a lot, but have played them fairly extensively myself and still have to disagree.  I know it's possible to play and succeed with them.  But compared to the other factions, all things else considered equal(player skill, etc), they are inferior to the other factions in my opinion.

I'm just saying they can be a strong faction.  That's not the same as claiming they're the best faction.  Me, I like them, but they definitely won't appeal to everyone.

I don't like them because all ever have to do is F3 the enemy.

 

[Argeus the Paladin]

... which is a surefire way of throwing away good Khergit men especially against Rhodoks and Nords. Remember that all the steppe peoples' tactics relied not on blindly charging, but on the saddle's equivalent of combined arms. Horse archers moved forwards first, divided into two groups to encircle the enemy if possible, emptied all their shots on their enemies and ran off if the enemy gives chase. Once the horse archers ran out of ammunition or their foes were suffering casualties, demoralized and/or showing gaps in the formation, lancers charge home and crush everything in their path.

IMO M&B is perfectly suitable for emulating this tactic:

- Get a "Horse Archer" custom group and put all HA there.
- At the begining of the battle, order everyone to follow you.
- When your army is around 50-70 paces from the enemy, have lancers hold ground and horse archers follow. Wheel back in a wide arc behind the enemy on your right side (because the AI keep all their cav and archers on the left). Horse archers will keep shooting while the AI will be disoriented.
- After a while, one of two things will have happened:
    + The enemy keep enduring the shower of arrows and push forward towards your lancers, giving you ample time to shoot down and wound up to a quarter of the attackers. When they get close enough to the lancers. order horse archers to hold fire and everyone charge. The already weakened enemy will be literally crushed to death from both sides.
    + If some of the enemies break rank to follow your HA regiment, skirmish away and immediately order lancers to charge. Broken formations + chargers + Lances = Dead infantry.

I haven't seen this tactic in action much myself using Khergit troops, granted. What I did see was that myself (Dedicated horse archer with like 400 proficiency and 9 PD) and 15 Merc Cav (Which are, if you think about it, inferior to Kherg lancers in about every respect) replicate that tactic to great effect against both Rhodoks and Nords.

 

[Ivan Khan]

IMO M&B is perfectly suitable for emulating this tactic:

- Get a "Horse Archer" custom group and put all HA there.
- At the begining of the battle, order everyone to follow you.
- When your army is around 50-70 paces from the enemy, have lancers hold ground and horse archers follow. Wheel back in a wide arc behind the enemy on your right side (because the AI keep all their cav and archers on the left). Horse archers will keep shooting while the AI will be disoriented.
- After a while, one of two things will have happened:
    + The enemy keep enduring the shower of arrows and push forward towards your lancers, giving you ample time to shoot down and wound up to a quarter of the attackers. When they get close enough to the lancers. order horse archers to hold fire and everyone charge. The already weakened enemy will be literally crushed to death from both sides.
    + If some of the enemies break rank to follow your HA regiment, skirmish away and immediately order lancers to charge. Broken formations + chargers + Lances = Dead infantry.

I have used the same plan to good effect. Veteran Horse Archers properly used really help in many situations, particularly when dealing with pesky Rhodickians. I have also used them to draw off cavalry, Mamlukes and Knights can be quickly dealt with if you can get them to chase your HAs and then send your Lancers to stab them in the back.

The secret to playing Khergits is to do what Huns did (getting back to the topic) and use hit-n-run tactics.


Personally I like to play heavily armoured horse archer and just charge headlong into the enemy. I can normally drop 3-4 before I hit their line and then get 1-2 more as just before contact I switch to my melee arm. My favorite outfit is Masterwork Nomad bow (still looking for a MW Strong or War Bow), Khergits arrows, Balanced Elite Scimitar, Reinforced Husculars shield, with the best armour I can find. Oh, and Champion Steep Charger for a mount (you really need the speed and maneuverability).

And, nothing, nothing, is better than dropping some enemy lord, or elite cavalry with a Parthian shot to the head when he is stupid enough to chase you. 

 

[Argeus the Paladin]

And, nothing, nothing, is better than dropping some enemy lord, or elite cavalry with a Parthian shot to the head when he is stupid enough to chase you. 

This is especially true for Vaegir and Rhodok lords, who have a really bad habit of carrying no shields and/or riding Caravan Guard-grade horses. 

 

[Ivan Khan]

And, nothing, nothing, is better than dropping some enemy lord, or elite cavalry with a Parthian shot to the head when he is stupid enough to chase you. 

This is especially true for Vaegir and Rhodok lords, who have a really bad habit of carrying no shields and/or riding Caravan Guard-grade horses. 

Na, no sport in killing 'bugged' Vaegirs. Now, thoose horned helmets really help with aiming though.

Speaking of bugs, one other place the HAs AI suck is defending seiges, they will only shoot until melee is joined at the top of the lader then they attack.

 

[JosieJ]

... which is a surefire way of throwing away good Khergit men especially against Rhodoks and Nords. Remember that all the steppe peoples' tactics relied not on blindly charging, but on the saddle's equivalent of combined arms. Horse archers moved forwards first, divided into two groups to encircle the enemy if possible, emptied all their shots on their enemies and ran off if the enemy gives chase. Once the horse archers ran out of ammunition or their foes were suffering casualties, demoralized and/or showing gaps in the formation, lancers charge home and crush everything in their path.

IMO M&B is perfectly suitable for emulating this tactic:

- Get a "Horse Archer" custom group and put all HA there.
- At the begining of the battle, order everyone to follow you.
- When your army is around 50-70 paces from the enemy, have lancers hold ground and horse archers follow. Wheel back in a wide arc behind the enemy on your right side (because the AI keep all their cav and archers on the left). Horse archers will keep shooting while the AI will be disoriented.
- After a while, one of two things will have happened:
    + The enemy keep enduring the shower of arrows and push forward towards your lancers, giving you ample time to shoot down and wound up to a quarter of the attackers. When they get close enough to the lancers. order horse archers to hold fire and everyone charge. The already weakened enemy will be literally crushed to death from both sides.
    + If some of the enemies break rank to follow your HA regiment, skirmish away and immediately order lancers to charge. Broken formations + chargers + Lances = Dead infantry.

This is pretty much the tactic I used on stronger enemies.  On weaker enemies, I'd abuse the bad AI: I'd have everyone follow me, HAs first, then Lancers, ride straight for the enemy and tell the Lancers to charge, and then I'd wheel off (with the HAs following me) at the last second and flank the enemy.  While the enemy was turning toward me and the HAs (who were merrily pincushioning them), the Lancers would charge into their line.  Really, pretty much the same tactic, except with weaker enemies there was no need to soften 'em up first with the HAs.

 

[Lord Silvabane]

I F3 and I very rarely take any losses, unless I'm up against Knights where they can take out a few of my Lancers. I like Rhodoks and Nords because you have to rely much more on tactics especially when up against large Swadian or Khergit armies.
Horse archers are the worst units in the game IMO, they serve no more then a distraction because never get more than a few kills (the horse archer AI is the most terrible in the game).

 

[Temuçin]

The Khergits can beat almost literally nobody in any setting. I once had a party of 100, 40 of which were Nord huscarls, and I got into a fight with Sanjar Khan and his horde of 400. He had boatloads of top-tier men and even when circling like madmen I just lined up my huscarls and anything that stepped close died. When we beat away most of the melee fighters I told my men to charge and we killed all the archers. I lost 8 men and had 21 wounded. It's sad because the Khergits are almost more dangerous on foot than they are on horseback.

I disagree. By this way of thinking, player controlled army vs AI army, I could ride 600 nords like grass with my 100 Khergit lancers. The difficulty level is also important.

Back to topic, when I got this game first time, I immediately thought similarity between life of temujin and game. Player starts from one man then amasses thousands around him/her and eventually became Genghis Khan of Calradia. My first game in warband resulted in full invasion of all other kingdoms as marshal of Khergit Khanate.

 

[Argeus the Paladin]

^ Well, but did you start your game as an impoverished noble whose family was reduced to comon fugitive as a result of his too-dumb-to-live father stopping to have dinner with a rivalling tribe and being poisoned as a result? Huh? Huh? 

(In that sense, the perfect Temujin start would have been impoverished noble -> page -> poacher -> Either Personal Revenge or Lust for $$$ and power. Which, ironically, makes our theoretical Temujin starter character incredibly inept on horseback with a bow at least for the first few levels.)

 

[TuranianGhazi]

The secret to playing Khergits is to do what Huns did (getting back to the topic) and use hit-n-run tactics.

Personally I like to play heavily armoured horse archer and just charge headlong into the enemy. I can normally drop 3-4 before I hit their line and then get 1-2 more as just before contact I switch to my melee arm. My favorite outfit is Masterwork Nomad bow (still looking for a MW Strong or War Bow), Khergits arrows, Balanced Elite Scimitar, Reinforced Husculars shield, with the best armour I can find. Oh, and Champion Steep Charger for a mount (you really need the speed and maneuverability).

And, nothing, nothing, is better than dropping some enemy lord, or elite cavalry with a Parthian shot to the head when he is stupid enough to chase you. 

Spot on. Wholeheartedly agree with Ivan Khan on these points. The fun with Khergits is the challenge and trying to emulate the "feigned retreat" tactic, even with the shoddy AI and limited commands.

Exactly how I play with Khergits as well. Except I've grown to like the one-handed axe to go chopping up on shields. M&B has sooo many shields on enemies, especially the annoying Rhodoks (in my view, their the worst match-up against Khergits). Nord Huscarls I'm not afraid of at all, since they can be kited indefinitely or ridden down. In WF&S, it's actually even better to be an archer - no shields and little armor on enemy forces. But that's a tad off topic.

Also, Argeus the Paladin, JosieJ, and Temucin all present valid strats on how to best utilize Khergit troop types. Good catch there Argeus on the wrench in that setup - this Temujin wouldn't start off as a master archer, but I think for such a character, Charisma is much more important to have as large an army as possible. Also Trainer to train them up fast, abusing the relatively quick progression to Lancers and VHAs.

What's your Khergit army compositions like? For me, 20% lancers, rest VHAs, HAs and recruits on the way to HAs or to replenish lancer ranks. With lancer majority armies, they actually take much more casualties by blindly charging in. Also, VHAs are much better for both sieging, on offense and defense, especially defense.

Against Nords and Swadians who don't have many archers, I usually form a line of HAs and let them fire off from standing position, even on horseback, but stationary. I find that their accuracy improves substantially this way and much more enemies die off to arrow fire. I advance 10 paces forward or backward as I see fit. When the enemy is close enough, I order the lancers to crash headlong or from the sides. I mostly maneuver with the HAs, trying to hone the "hit-and-run" tactic.

Against Rhodoks and Vaegirs (who actually have pretty strong bowmen), it is best to engage in melee faster, to keep their archers occupied.

Against heavy enemy cavalry (Swadians, Sarranids), I just don't charge at all and instead bait them around until they're dispersed enough, from there the AI actually does a good enough job of kiting. It's just that crucial decision whether to bait that initial charge or not.

 

[Ivan Khan]

What's your Khergit army compositions like? For me, 20% lancers, rest VHAs, HAs and recruits on the way to HAs or to replenish lancer ranks. With lancer majority armies, they actually take much more casualties by blindly charging in. Also, VHAs are much better for both sieging, on offense and defense, especially defense.

I normally have more Lancers, and I always build them up 1st, and they make up about 1/3rd of my group. Once I have them, I train-up VHAs, and I name all the Kerghit horseman but the Lancers HAs for grouping. I normally end up rescuing a lot of Manhunters and I add these to my group traning them up to Slaver Cheifs Also normally get a few other horsemen I rescue). Once I have them trained to elite level (IE no  more steps) I reduce my VHAs to about a 3rd. With 1/3rd Lancers and 1/3rd Slaver Chiefs other cavalry.

Companions are heavily armoured horse archers like me. They become a very deadly force, which is one reason the number of VHAs goes down. Somehow the AI works better for them.

I think adding rescued soldiers  is very Khergitish as it is what the steep tribes did. And, Slaver Chiefs are murderous to armoured foes with their blunt weapons.

 

[YourStepDad]

Nords resemble Vikings from Sweden and the Netherlands (obviously)

What's so obvious about them being Swedish or the Danes in Netherlands?
Nothing. They are your average, if not stereotypical vikings, and Norwegian and Danish Vikings would first come to mind.