Another spear thread + few ideas how to "fix"

Users who are viewing this thread

pontaeri

Recruit
Spears are weak in the game because the hit box is tiny for the stated / advertised damage and its generally only at the max length (you'll hear the skewer sound). Anything closer is blunt damage and not the advertised (you can hear the blunt sound) damage. Which makes sense because Taleworlds thinks inside the spear is a staff hitting / blunt damage and the tip / head is piercing.


You can notice the diff if you equip the tier 5 two handed axe and swing it at a looters, it will mow through and kill / damage (I've gotten 7) in one swing. With a tier 6 spear, it will only do advertised pierce damage at the tip range, and only one person. Sometimes you might get lucky and stab two.

It gets worse with pikes because their length stabbing (let alone running around was hard that's why the Sarissa thing only worked if you had a huge squad and if you had to make a turn, it took training and coordination, anyone been in marching band? Watchout for the tuba guy / gal).


My solution would have something like how you can flip throwing weapons into melee mode, so for spears have a flip toggle for long range and close range and if set for the right range, f the spear hits, it does advertised damage, so in theory a savvy player could do it at all ranges. Before you go, "Spears only work at long range!!! Rawwr!!" There's an explanation.


The problem is SPears in this game don't take into account that good spear wielder can adjust the range of the tip on the fly, this adjusting the hitbox to the range of the enemy (provided its the length of the spear to the wielder) whilst in game, the spear tip is at max length of the spear and the hit box is around that area and only that length.

I used to practice wushiu and kung fu, and the spear is considered the best weapon (equal skill of practitioner) partly due to its range, the angles it can attack / shift from, and good foot work is key too. If someone closes in, you can whip the spear back so your back hand is in the middle and the front hand (guiding it) is near the point and allows short thrusts and swings when someone is in your face. The longsword equivalent of this is HEMA's half swording (front hand grips the middle of the sword and guides the tip and back hand pulls back .. . of course usually is done with gauntlet / mail gloves.)

The other reason is the spear is pretty dangerous as it's held in both hands and a skilled practitioner can adjust their hand angle and grip, so you have more angles to attack from than a sword (since its held on one end). Also ancient Chinese spears were flexible so a user could swing and whip their spear (and get it to bend) and thrust, changing the angle like a pitcher does a w/ a curve ball. HEMA ones didn't but changing arm and hand positioning. Also some spears had points at both ends (sometimes it was a blunt metal cap, but the end cap with a point . . . the lizard sticker as Hoplite LARPers say), so that was another option.

Don't get me wrong, the sword at its range is versatile, but a spear has the same at all ranges (and longer) and if two handed, gives extra angles and leverage (vs single hand sword or single hand spear). But it's hard to translate into a video game. Even games like Mordhau . . .

The other factor was the learning curve for spears is much lower than, say a straight sword or even saber (Chinese martial arts), and same goes for HEMA two hander or single. Finally resources and smithing / crafting for spears is less intensive, so weapons providers could make more spear in shorter amount of time than a sword.

A fun fact: ancient chinese army weapons big three was spear (denoted by dragon), straight sword (phoenix), and saber (tiger), the spear (or variants like staff spade / halberds, blade / sword tip) was considered the king of weapons due to range and flexibility it had.
 
Last edited:

fedeita

Marquis
Spears were meant also to holding space from the enemy so it was really hard to break a trained formation frontally, even harder against pikes and that's why they ruled europe battles for centuries.
Solutions I propose:
1: create special ai behaviour and formations for spearmen and pikemen were they all keep the spear lowered when the enemy is getting closer, ready to strike with thrusts.
2: give spears and pikes a collision box when aimed frontally, this would prevent the enemy to pass magically through them.
 

czarny

Veteran
You can already make spears/pikes work with 2 or 3 mods:
1. Spear Rework - better handling, attacks don't collide with ally troops so tight formations work, you have version with 1.5x dmg boost
2. RBM AI - troops fight in formation, are more defensive, don't rush, troops with longer polearms behind can defend your front line
3. My Little Warband - make your own proper pike/spear troops

I had really good time with these 3 mods.
 
Top Bottom