You know what else doesn't vibrate? A dildo with a dead battery.
Another ancalimon thread
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That sentence states that God is both in the universe and outside of it. Which is it?
Is the universe infinite, and if so, how can something be outside of it?
I see where you're coming from. Indeed, it's explicitly stated and heavily emphasized in Islam that Allah is not a person or an object, but that doesn't necessarily mean Allah is "something" "outside the universe" which "doesn't vibrate." That line of thought lies on the idea that Allah is still "something" that "belongs somewhere". Taking the correctness of that idea aside, it serves no purpose to improve your Islamic faith. If there's anything that could come out of that line of thought, it's that it could cloud your mind from seeing what truly matters.
In monotheistic religions the gods need to be entities separate from the creation. Otherwise they're part of it and it quickly borders on pantheism (Spinoza e.g.), where everything is manifestations of God. In Christianity a lot of energy (and executions) have been used to weed out such thoughts.
(It creates a lot of rational problems, such as God being both creator and creation, cause and effect etc. that doesn't correlate with Aristotelian logic).
I know little about Islam, but imagine it's the same there.
(It creates a lot of rational problems, such as God being both creator and creation, cause and effect etc. that doesn't correlate with Aristotelian logic).
I know little about Islam, but imagine it's the same there.
Islam had a similar debate but (up until the early modern period at least), it settled on Al-Ghazali's idea that all atoms are part of god, even to the point where phenomena don't exist between moments. Essentially Allah re-creates all non-atomic phenomena every "frame". Sounds like horribly unoptimised code.
Most monotheists who aren't philosophers don't actually care about this stuff. In most western philosophy there is a divide between matter and spirit, and the rest of the world mostly sees them as interlinked somehow, but you still get Catholicism and Protestantism all across the world in spite of this fundamental ontological difference. The Islamic debate over whether phenomena are part of God was more about the relationship between religion, the state, and science, and the weird atomic logic of Al Ghazali was used to justify locking off the spiritual realm from scientific or state-secular probing.
Most monotheists who aren't philosophers don't actually care about this stuff. In most western philosophy there is a divide between matter and spirit, and the rest of the world mostly sees them as interlinked somehow, but you still get Catholicism and Protestantism all across the world in spite of this fundamental ontological difference. The Islamic debate over whether phenomena are part of God was more about the relationship between religion, the state, and science, and the weird atomic logic of Al Ghazali was used to justify locking off the spiritual realm from scientific or state-secular probing.
It's along that line but it has something specific about it. Islam puts a lot of focus in that God is not a "person God" like say, Zeus. God makes absolutely no mistake, can't be fooled, no children, no "parts", and other stuff that all lead to that God is perfect. We're told what traits God has (the most merciful, etc), but now what God is (in the sense of description). That's why there's no image of God in Islam. Most you will get is the text in front of a spark of light. This extends somewhat to Muhammad, and explains the whole brouhaha about forbidding drawing Muhammad. Though Muhammad is only a human, not perfect and should not be worshipped, only admired and respected.
Now, what's the point of this? This is just my personal take on it, but it looks an awful lot that Islam wants people to worship virtues, and not idols. There's also a lot of focus put on not worshipping idols, and so Islam has nothing like the Christian cross. God is merciful, and that trait is beautiful. Therefore people should adore that mercy, and try their best to uphold it. To worship mercy, one will naturally have to be merciful too. Now, there are 99 written traits/names of God in Islam, so that will lead to being a really good person.
This leads to why I think this thread is a load of barnacles. Focusing on metaphysics is like insisting that Muhammad's hair was curly instead of straight, and making a lot of theories based on it, instead of talking about Muhammad's teachings and how to implement them. It won't help you to be a better person.
It's a good thing to have a reasonable and knowledgeable Muslim voice in threads like this.
However you may have noticed that this thread is not really about theological nuances. The complex motivation of OP is to "prove" that Islam and Turks are superior to the West and the rest of the world, through a series of fantastic inventions and imaginary conspiracies which somehow explain how Islam and Turks are kept down from their rightful place by sinister, secret forces. It's an extension of Turkish nationalism and the particular affinity for conspiracy theories in Turkey.
Just a bit of perspective, although spin-off debates like this one, not including OP, are the only valuable thing about a thread like this.
But what if I'm actually a Buddhist, Vader? Or what if I'm actually a CCP agent all along? You wouldn't know. You wouldn't know if I was a blonde anti-vaxxer Karen lady with supple breasts. How can you know t h e t r u t h?
Maybe we are all agents of sinister entities here, training our virtual personas for our real assignments in forums that actually matter.
If you are really, really bored, here's t h e t u r t h.
While this is true for Islam, most of the muslims are doing opposite of this. Worshipping saints, going to graves of saints, praying and want what they want from Allah in the name of the saint lying there. Even some thinks that these saints can change the records of levhi mahfuz which is a book holding records of everyone's fate.
Yes. The thing about religion is that most people aren't doing it properly, which is to be expected. The masses won't have the time to study or think about religion deeply, and thus have the watered-down version in their minds. That's why religions exist to begin with, and why the dream that people just need to "grow morality on their own" won't happen. It takes many years for people to wise up, and during that timeframe those people need something to keep them in check. We need an easy-to-digest set of teachings for that.
That's why I disagree when people say religion X is bad. No. Their followers just need to do it properly, like our friend Ancalimon here.
Communism isn't bad, they just need to do it properly.
Religion sucks because it's irrational and demands faith in the face of lack of evidence. This is dangerous thinking - once people stop questioning an authority, they can be manipulated to think and do stuff on faith. The obvious example in the US is the overlap between religiousness and belief in conspiracy theories.
While religion could be used to suppress the great unwashed masses to support the existing social order, educated masses are far less gullible and codified ancient norms don't translate well to contemporary society. So religion is good for stability of backward countries, but need to be phased out in favor of humanist norms once the level of education can support this.
I understand where you're coming from and I agree with you, so I won't debate against that. As a matter of fact I've been labeled heretic by my own friends because I have my own understanding of Islam. Not that I care about that. To me it's just another example of people not "using" religion properly. I use religions as moral teachings (which are solid, unlike communism), not as a magical faction.
The problem with religions is that they added myth on top of the teachings. It's where the blind faith and all came from. What's ironic is that Islam itself was actually designed to avoid this problem. Being one of the newer religions, I believe it must have learned from the older ones. Practicing magic is a major sin. Worshiping idols is a major sin. Editing or adding new stuff after Muhammad is a major sin. So no, don't add your own myths you naughty little muslims! I'm looking at you...! And no, don't worship Muhammad. Wait, stop! What are you doing?! No don't worship that hair of Muhammad! It's probably not even real! NOOOOOOOOO!
But yeah. Not that I blame ancient people for adding myth tho. I think it's a natural process of what comes after. Besides, what else could they do to make their religion hype and fun? I mean, people already made statues of George Floyd and treat him like a saint. The problem is that we're at an age where people, by the minimum standard, should've been smart enough to notice the myths. Instead, we're discarding the old time-tested religions, and trying to repeat the whole process again.
It's great that you put an emphasis on the difference between idols and virtues.
They are the same thing when they are worshipped.
When talking about "words", one needs to explain what is being meant by word and that word. Don't just take my word. Think more.
There are two very important concepts in Quran and the essence of this book truly is something remarkable. These concepts are two Arabic words:
Abd and Rabb. If you read the Quran comparatively long enough and follow in my lucky disdained footsteps, you will realize certain aspects of the book and life in general.
Abd is a subordinate. Rabb is the opposite of that... To put things easy for people to understand, abd is the slave-the worshipper while Rabb is the master-the worshipped.
The book is all about advising people to refuse to be slaves and only accept God as the master even if they refuse God and its books.
Worshipping is a made up concept. The only thing worth worshipping is God even if you believe that it does not exist. Then you are free. The only superiority comes from knowledge and ability.
So the only thing islam wants people to do is to stop saying what is real is a lie and what is false is the truth. It is called islam. If people are unable to identify reality, they won't be able to become free and save themselves. The reason people are unable to identify reality is because they decide not to use their superior power and surrender to Lucifer. Thus Lucifer is able to use its voice in order to control and create an illusion in order to stop that person from identifying reality.
Islam definitely does not want people to worship virtues. Virtues become idols themselves when one starts worshipping them, thus turning the virtue into some kind of "righteousness" . Freedom, human rights... They are all idols when worshipped. The trick Lucifer keeps using since Adam is to use all the names of God to its advantage in order to create an illusion in the eyes of the people.
For example let's think about the idols worshipped by the Arabs when Mohammad became the vessel of God's words. People before that were not really concerned about the statues themselves. They regarded the virtues they represented, and those virtues were thought by humans but in reality, were given to people as a gift by God itself. When worshipped, any virtue was manipulated by the "satan" genes of people and will be until the end of time. People will gain power, and use the things they call righteousness in order to impose their will - puissance on others. Others who were being oppressed by some other righteousness.
Without God, freedom will become slavery. Without God, the right to live will become a deathwish. Without God, refugees will be seen as a nuisance who should live in Turkey in exchange for money and not people who need help (because of coups you created in the first place).
One story I really like which tells a story from this perspective is the story of Kingpriest of Istar from Dragonlance.
Vessels of God's words do not have teachings. Those so called teachings can only come from our "satan genes". Prophets (it is a false word) do not teach they channel words of God. They do not know what they say. They learn it as they say it to other people. Metaphysics is meta until you learn what it really is. When you are a "prophet", until you see a sign which proves otherwise, you are just a mad person. There are many examples like this in quran; prophets being afraid that they are mad.
Yet you choose to live your life in faith that you will least be content with your life. You are born to this world with debt and in order to live like other human beings, you need to sell yourself for free and pay your debt to some people who you may not even acknowledge the existence of. That is called religion and blind faith. You are a very religious person like the rest of the people. Don't get me wrong. I feel for you. We are all in the same ship. It's just that I am delusional. It's all right.
Faith is a negative word in Quran. It is not shown as a good thing. That alone deserves more attention. I hate to keep saying this; What I know is most probably false. But in this case, what you know is definitely "more false". (damn.. How did you say "more false" in comparative and superlative form)
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I wasn't born with debt and I don't have faith that my life will be fine. I have confidence in my human abilities to avoid some unpleasant outcomes and to bone some fine booty.
I don't take words from strangers and old texts on faith, but I do take science on faith since I know that I can check its facts whenever I want. I also don't use hallucinogenic drugs or pretend I have some special knowledge, therefore my expectations are realistic and I'm rarely surprised by poor predictions or judgment. That's where you are infinitely worse and you also have an infinitely smaller peepee.
They're not. Idols are objects. Something that does. They're entities. Zeus, Shiva, etc. Virtues are qualities. Adjectives. It's not an entity, but characteristic of an entity. It's categorically different, and very important to distinguish.
For example, let's say someone worships Zeus, who has the virtue of Strength. That person is not worshiping Strength. He adores Zeus, not Strength. If Zeus somehow loses his Strength, that person is worshiping something that is not Strong. He fawns over Zeus but does nothing about it. He seeks no Strength on his own. Therefore he does not use his life to gain Strength. This means his worship of Zeus is meaningless, as it does him no good.
When someone worships Strength, it wouldn't matter if Zeus is gone. His faith will live on, and he will continue to strive for Strength. Other Gods who are associated with Strength won't make him waver in his worship.
This is straight up false. Worshiping is an action, and actions are real. They're activities which will be observed as "true" no matter the faith of those observe it. If you said what is worshiped is made up, instead, that that would be somewhat true.
Only when people add myths on top of those virtues, like what you're doing with your Lucifer and God talk. Virtues, by themselves, are nothing but qualities. They're not entities, and thus are not idols. This is why I'm very against your metaphysics talk. It taints something pure (virtues) with myths.
The purest feeling, the original meaning of worship, is act of adoration. You think of a virtue. You think that virtue is beautiful. You want that virtue. You yearn for it. You pray for it. Then, if you are truly wise, you will uphold it.
This is flat out wrong. Those idol worshipers worshiped nothing but idols. They worshiped no virtue. If they were worshiping virtues, they wouldn't get drunk or sacrifice humans and animals. Virtues don't demand anything. Virtues don't want sacrifices. Virtues are just virtues. They simply exist.
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I think you have a serious issue with not being able to see things as they simply are. You can't draw a line between definitions. You think that A can be B, and therefore A = B. It's flat out wrong on the logical basis. If you truly are a seeker of wisdom, I'd suggest learning some Buddhism. None of the myth ****s. Learn the original, moralistic, Buddhist teachings.
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Conspiracy theories happen precisely because people are questioning authority. There isn't some shadow government with shadow scientists telling these people what to think.
The reason religious beliefs feel weird and out of place in the western world is that the basic assumptions of our rationalising, liberal society have intentionally been built around negating it. But go back 500 years and the basic assumptions of our own society would have come across like lunatic conspiracy theories, and there would be an early modern MadVader calling people irrational conspiracy theorists for thinking there is no God, or that natural phenomena can be decontextualised and understood individually. It has nothing to do with people being inherently stupid or uneducated either. Most conspiracy theorists (and a lot of religious people) just hate the establishment so much that they would rather completely alienate themselves from it than accept any of its assumptions.
When liberalism first emerged, it was a bizzare, reductive, seemingly irrational way of looking at the world. It stripped reality of its context and tried to use what seemed like mathematical rules for determining that All Men Are Individual or Power Is Bad. It's only in a reality which is actually compartmentalised and decontextualised like this (i.e. the modern capitalist nation-states europe and america) that liberalism can make any sense. This is why so many attempts of westerners to understand people outside the west, or even religious people within the west, fail so miserably, because within the west liberalism feels like reality, when outside it's just another lens.
Concluding that 90% of people are somehow outside of logic, except you of course, is way more of a reality-defying, nondeterministic conspiracy theory than anything an average hypercatholic believes.
Categorizations are not binding in this case. Because their foundations are fixed by choice.
Quran does not differentiate between idols and virtues without understanding of rejecting lords other than the God. Without realization of God, the message of acceptance and peace become idols. Even if you are a person that believes in peace and good of mankind, in the wrong hands, any virtue will become an enemy of humankind. This is what Quran talks about.
We have to realize that worshipping is not an accepted concept in Quran because religion itself is a made up concept according to Quran. It is not a way of life. It is simply and clearly a "debt" that has to be payed. It is a binding contract between humankind and the God itself. The relationship between a slave (abd) and master (Rabb) is the same between humankind (abd) and God (Rabb). A slave does not worship his/her master. He pays a presumptive debt to the master. That is not worshipping. That is accepting the master as his Rabb. But God claims to be the only master of all dimensions and things in it: "rabbil alemin". The debt that has to be payed exists because Adam had a baby with the prohibited family tree. Lucifer wants that debt for himself and that is he worked so hard to isolate his genes from the Adam genes. He wants to gain access to the special human gene.
It does not matter whether people do something they made up. That worshipping is not what is wanted in Quran. The only thing that the God wants is to be accepted as the only master. God wants people to be nonserviam.
For something true to become mythology, truth needs to be hidden and/or destroyed. Look at history. Look at news. Whenever the soldiers of "globalists" invade somewhere, before they capture oil reserves, banks, government buildings, the first place they enter and loot are ..... museums.... The first place they burn are ..... libraries. The first people they kill are .... intellectuals.. There is a reason for this. Read annuals. Read history. You will realize why things are the way they are.
None. None of these virtues are pure. They are idols. If they were so pure, Turkey wouldn't be full of Syrian refugees escaping from a terrorist country. These are all fake idols The virtues are real but the way they are actualized definitely is not. They are just instruments of deceit in the hands of a false God. And the eyes that are blended by them are those who refuse to look at the truth directly.
We are living another dark age during the 20th and 21st century. There are beings that are going to change this again soon.
I have seen what can be done to people using binaural beats and electronic glasses many years ago. There is something huge coming and we are going to live to see it.
Buddhism is a made up religion in Tibet. The Turks brought teachings of Monotheism to wherever they went and choose someone to create a monotheism suitable for the culture of that geography. They choose Buddha as the teacher and people gave him the name Shakyamuni (Saka God). Turks and Tibetans are relatives by marriage. Himalayas was a very important place for Turks. The As travelling to Himalayas were depicted as Flying Horses like they were flying over the hanging bridges between the mountains.
Wind Horse - Wikipedia
Saka is another name for Scythian. They were a confederation of two groups. The As (Ar) and the Oghuz (Ogur) ~ OQ.
The As were the intellectuals and the Oq were the fighters. Together all of those people were called Tur collectively.
In Persia the same group was depicted as winged tigers when creating zoroastrianism.
We need to read Mahabharata extensively and comparatively with every other myth around the world, make connections with religious text, religious hearsay like the hadith, four bible translations, and also have a look at ancient writings, tablets, pictograms, ideograms in order to have an idea about who really was who.
I think, some of the Turks here are the "bad guys" as in "enemies of humanity"; "the blue bloods". However they may be appearing as the good guys in some corrupted mythologies. OF course that is just a possibility at this point because we do not have any other source except what has been found. I believe all of the people in the word had become Turks at one point. And after the destruction of Tower of Babel, nations emerged. That of course was not something God did or want. But it was part of God's plan like everything else (you would need to think hard in order to grasp the idea here. But I suspect you wouldn't be able to, since you still believe that "a prophet had teachings". A prophet is just a vessel. He is not pure. He is a person and he can be wrong. I passed that point 20 years ago.
Somethings things are not simple. Life is not simple. Nothing is simple and nothing can be explained easily.
A is A and B is B. And sometimes someone uses Caesar cipher in order to shift A into B. At those times, you need to see that A is B.
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No one worships Human Rights. It's at most philosophical ideas about humanity and justice.
I'm atheist and don't even know what it means to worship something - on a personal level.
I see some good ideas in Human Rights, but they're not immaculate, and I support them like laws in general: don't kill, don't steal etc.
What are your views on Human Rights, historically or in their modern form?
Dare I ask what that means?
I'm atheist and don't even know what it means to worship something - on a personal level.
I see some good ideas in Human Rights, but they're not immaculate, and I support them like laws in general: don't kill, don't steal etc.
What are your views on Human Rights, historically or in their modern form?
Dare I ask what that means?
