An overall well done mod.

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CrymsonChaos

Sergeant
Despite it being in the early stages, I've already caught the fever of addiction to this mod.

The different tribes, some advanced and some not is very fun.  Nothing is funnier than watching Snake Tribe get gunned down, only to have them get close enough and then tear you to shreds.

Well done, I'm looking forward to updates!  :grin:
 
We have more things planned, and snakes get cool things in the next update, not to mention a number of other things!
 
CrymsonChaos said:
Despite it being in the early stages, I've already caught the fever of addiction to this mod.

The different tribes, some advanced and some not is very fun.  Nothing is funnier than watching Snake Tribe get gunned down, only to have them get close enough and then tear you to shreds.

Well done, I'm looking forward to updates!  :grin:
Thanks, that's really nice to hear.
Here is a screenshot of some of the stuff I am working on
 
Crossbow Joe said:
CrymsonChaos said:
Despite it being in the early stages, I've already caught the fever of addiction to this mod.

The different tribes, some advanced and some not is very fun.  Nothing is funnier than watching Snake Tribe get gunned down, only to have them get close enough and then tear you to shreds.

Well done, I'm looking forward to updates!  :grin:
Thanks, that's really nice to hear.
Here is a screenshot of some of the stuff I am working on

*Foams at the mouth at screenshot* AWESOME
 
I really like this mod and I'm following the development from the beginning. The current build is already pretty impressive and its cool to see you are making progress. The new snake outfits look good on the one hand but very strange on the other. I will explain:

One issue with the mod is that the different tribes don't differ visually. They all seem to use the same model (Nords?) and having the more Indian-inspired cultures having white, bearded people running around resembles cavemen more than the cultures they draw their inspiration from. This is definitely hard to change but maybe the Native American themed tribes should get the khergit visuals so they don't feature the big, viking like beards anymore :grin: (EDIT: I think they actually already are Khergits, sorry about that that... ^^)

Regarding "cavemen" - I think most tribes look too primitive and deserve some kind of overhaul. For instance the Karkans: When I was visiting Mountaintop, I noticed that they prefer to run around there "naked" and prefer crude weapons made of sticks and stones. Additionally, they use huge natural caves. The latter is cool but I think the whole Karkan design is a bit too "stone-age". Considering that they probably sit on the biggest ore stash on the island and managed to settle in such harsh conditions should lead them probably to a stage of development where they develop basic or even advanced metalworking skills. I would imagine them more like the Barbarians portrayed in Blizzard's Diablo universe (http://www.beepworld.de/memberdateien/members55/headhunters_clan/barbarian.jpg ). Fur-wearing "civilians" and lightly armoured warriors with more or less advanced kind of iron axes and swords and the chieftain even able to provide hardy partial-plate armour (http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/3661/1637592-barbarian_3.jpg). As a culture strongly relying on hunting they also have to develop some kind of ranged weaponry, maybe make them at least experts in throwing spears or basic crossbows. No shields or some kind of "prestige" heavy shields for nobles instead of these crude tree bark "shields".

The North-America-inspired Tribe (Lundmen?) should maybe on the highest tier feature gunpowder units. Through trading and scout/mercenary duty for the colonists some Lundmen could be in possesion of guns, wearing them as a sign of rank and skill. To not being able to outgun the actual gun wielding colonists, they could have only 4 shots and wield a heavy close combat weapon in addition to that.

Just a few things that came to my mind, I bet you have already thought about similiar things :smile: Really looking forward to the new Aztecs ^^
 
Celticpred said:
*Foams at the mouth at screenshot* AWESOME
Thanks, I am also trying to get some proper body armour too.
Vangar said:
I really like this mod and I'm following the development from the beginning. The current build is already pretty impressive and its cool to see you are making progress. The new snake outfits look good on the one hand but very strange on the other. I will explain:
:eek: I have to admit, its not every day I see such a constructive post like this come my way.
Regarding "cavemen" - I think most tribes look too primitive and deserve some kind of overhaul. For instance the Karkans: When I was visiting Mountaintop, I noticed that they prefer to run around there "naked" and prefer crude weapons made of sticks and stones. Additionally, they use huge natural caves. The latter is cool but I think the whole Karkan design is a bit too "stone-age". Considering that they probably sit on the biggest ore stash on the island and managed to settle in such harsh conditions should lead them probably to a stage of development where they develop basic or even advanced metalworking skills. I would imagine them more like the Barbarians portrayed in Blizzard's Diablo universe (http://www.beepworld.de/memberdateien/members55/headhunters_clan/barbarian.jpg ). Fur-wearing "civilians" and lightly armoured warriors with more or less advanced kind of iron axes and swords and the chieftain even able to provide hardy partial-plate armour (http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/3661/1637592-barbarian_3.jpg). As a culture strongly relying on hunting they also have to develop some kind of ranged weaponry, maybe make them at least experts in throwing spears or basic crossbows. No shields or some kind of "prestige" heavy shields for nobles instead of these crude tree bark "shields".
I do understand what you mean in regards to the advancement of the Karkans and if you compare the first Karkans that were implemented in the mod they were far more primitive than what they are now; thanks to Angry Newbies research development in the area. As you say, some of the tribes kind of overlap (particularly between Arlen and Karkan) and while this is being looked into, such as developing some Iroquois type weapons for the arlenmen and branching into more celtic influences for the Karkans, it isn't necessarily a bad thing. Often tribes in a particular area were very similar in their culture and look, at least to the uneducated colonists.
But sometimes a logical approach like that, such as whether they are advanced enough to settle in rough conditions aren't entirely applicable in a fictional landscape like New Elgante, since an explanation can come up no matter what aspect I take, such as their isolation on a fairly small island, than the continents the traditional early man started on.
The naked "civilians" is more of a placeholder for a lack of non-native furs at the moment. Obviously they are not so resistant to the cold (that really only lasts for winter and in the mountains) that they can wear a fur loincloth as their only protection, so that is being developed. They are gaining a few bronze items for the high tier units, but I do really like the primitive look to them, they are sort of the tribe that occupy the least desirable part of New Elgante and are rarely contended for their property. Unlike tribes like the "Ichites", who lived along the coast now occupied by the empire, which aren't even featured as a faction since they have been wiped out (they are planned to be used in quests and artifact raiding however)
One issue with the mod is that the different tribes don't differ visually. They all seem to use the same model (Nords?) and having the more Indian-inspired cultures having white, bearded people running around resembles cavemen more than the cultures they draw their inspiration from. This is definitely hard to change but maybe the Native American themed tribes should get the khergit visuals so they don't feature the big, viking like beards anymore  (EDIT: I think they actually already are Khergits, sorry about that that... ^^)
Faces is starting to be approached and thought about, but up until now not much has been done on the area, apart from maybe the chiefs.
The North-America-inspired Tribe (Lundmen?) should maybe on the highest tier feature gunpowder units. Through trading and scout/mercenary duty for the colonists some Lundmen could be in possesion of guns, wearing them as a sign of rank and skill. To not being able to outgun the actual gun wielding colonists, they could have only 4 shots and wield a heavy close combat weapon in addition to that.
Well there has been a lot of discussion on whether or not to give guns to the native factions or not. Generally I see it that the colonists barely have enough themselves and don't actively produce them, preferring the crossbows which can be developed locally, that they would actually consider trading them with the Lundmen on any significant scale. However, taking your idea here, I think some Lundic chiefs wielding some would be a nice touch. This may be developed more as the Lundmen get a third review in the future.
Just a few things that came to my mind, I bet you have already thought about similiar things :smile: Really looking forward to the new Aztecs ^^
You have my gratitude for taking the time to post this. I suppose you have Angry Newbie to thank for the more historical referenced approach to the factions and not just the stuff that flies out of my head onto the screen. But I'm really getting into the snakes development and as always I make sure I develop them in a creative way.
 
Vangar said:
Regarding "cavemen" - I think most tribes look too primitive and deserve some kind of overhaul. For instance the Karkans: When I was visiting Mountaintop, I noticed that they prefer to run around there "naked" and prefer crude weapons made of sticks and stones. Additionally, they use huge natural caves. The latter is cool but I think the whole Karkan design is a bit too "stone-age". Considering that they probably sit on the biggest ore stash on the island and managed to settle in such harsh conditions should lead them probably to a stage of development where they develop basic or even advanced metalworking skills.

While i agree that they do feel a little too primitive, sitting on resources doesn't necessarily make them more advanced. Take the natives in the UP of my home state, Michigan. they had copper, they knew how to work copper, but they where not any more advanced then the natives around them.

While i want to keep the naked/loin-clothed skins we already have, i would like to branch out to trousers and advanced spears. The thing with that is, of course i don't want to conflict with crossbow joes vision.

We actually have all of the factions with a backround "historic" faction. Snakes are a hybrid of Mayan, Aztec and Incan culture for instance.
 
I understand your ambitions and I like the concept. But a few things are there which would maybe "force" the tribes to develop a bit further, especially gameplay-wise: As mostly unarmoured troops they are pretty much dead meat as soon as they face a larger variety of marksmen. I think tribal troops just HAVE to get some sort of armour to improve their survivability an there are numerous ways to do so.

For instance, both of you mentioned copper and bronze works. My knowloedge of the South American Tribes is very limited but I could imagine they use some sort of light armour made of those metals. When talking about light armour I think of something like basic breastplates, made of copper or bronze. The Northern America-inspired tribes could utilize some kind of wooden breastplates ( like this http://www.larocheleathers.com/images/artwork8.jpg ) and maybe the Karkans, if you don't want them to utilize metal, could feature some kind of stone armour (slate plates), making their characteristic masterpieces in stonework (I think a few cultures actually used stone as a material for armour, though very rarely. But there are tales of early Viking sagas in which people are said to use flat stones as a matter of personal protection). If we just add the right amount of fantasy in there it could work and help to improve unique feels and looks to the tribes.

The other thing which makes them look very primitive is that current weapon models often feature very basic crafting skills. The axe blades of stone are very very rough, the handles are crunked and simple. Even a primitive culture would learn that you need a straight piece of wood to properly use it as a weapon or tool. These handles could even be decorated or encased in leather, the blades, even if made of stone, could be made with more finess. Tomahawks for example were very carefully crafted and often decorated. Plus, talking about northern america, maybe the plain tribes could wield weapons more akin to Gunstock Clubs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunstock_war_club) further distincing them from the other tribes.

Talking about weapons, I noticed that the "Arquebus" you have in the game resembles a hand cannon more than an actual Arquebus. It is correct that it is usable on horseback, but the model is too "clumsy" for that. Since you have already some form of flintlock rifles in there, the Arquebus should resemble something like a petronel (http://www.ambroseantiques.com/wlongarms/petronel.htm) or Harquebus more to resemble it's use on cavalry. Basically, switching it's model to the "blunderbuss" - or make the blunderbuss usable on horseback since it is supposed to be the original "dragoon" used by, well, dragoons :grin: Some kind of inaccurate but powerful firearm to be wielded on horseback and more akin to crowd control than actual aimed shots.

Just a few suggestions, again. I have modded M&B for myself and know how much work it is especially creating new models and skins. So please don't take my suggestions as nagging, it really isn't meant this way :smile:
 
Vangar said:
For instance, both of you mentioned copper and bronze works. My knowloedge of the South American Tribes is very limited but I could imagine they use some sort of light armour made of those metals. When talking about light armour I think of something like basic breastplates, made of copper or bronze. The Northern America-inspired tribes could utilize some kind of wooden breastplates ( like this http://www.larocheleathers.com/images/artwork8.jpg ) and maybe the Karkans, if you don't want them to utilize metal, could feature some kind of stone armour (slate plates), making their characteristic masterpieces in stonework (I think a few cultures actually used stone as a material for armour, though very rarely. But there are tales of early Viking sagas in which people are said to use flat stones as a matter of personal protection). If we just add the right amount of fantasy in there it could work and help to improve unique feels and looks to the tribes.

The other thing which makes them look very primitive is that current weapon models often feature very basic crafting skills. The axe blades of stone are very very rough, the handles are crunked and simple. Even a primitive culture would learn that you need a straight piece of wood to properly use it as a weapon or tool. These handles could even be decorated or encased in leather, the blades, even if made of stone, could be made with more finess. Tomahawks for example were very carefully crafted and often decorated. Plus, talking about northern america, maybe the plain tribes could wield weapons more akin to Gunstock Clubs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunstock_war_club) further distincing them from the other tribes.
The thing is, the reason the tribes don't have armour isn't because I have made some decision that they should be like that, it is because I have had limited success at making armour for them at all. This being over the entire development of the mod (17 Months)
Several stages I have attempted making the very armour you talk about there, but I always manage to make some mistakes or it doesn't look right etc
I do have a piece that is currently being developed that will probably make its way to the next version. The snakes are getting a big upgrade to both their look and functionality, some troops already have better armour than empire troops.
As for the straight sticks, earlier on that's mostly what they had, but I thought it looked unnatural and reflected primitive modelling skills. So I made new models and made the handles look more like actual wood rather than a rod with wood veneer. Although realistically they would be straight, I think for aesthetic purposes the curves and jaggedness relates to the player they are actually sticks

Talking about weapons, I noticed that the "Arquebus" you have in the game resembles a hand cannon more than an actual Arquebus. It is correct that it is usable on horseback, but the model is too "clumsy" for that. Since you have already some form of flintlock rifles in there, the Arquebus should resemble something like a petronel (http://www.ambroseantiques.com/wlongarms/petronel.htm) or Harquebus more to resemble it's use on cavalry. Basically, switching it's model to the "blunderbuss" - or make the blunderbuss usable on horseback since it is supposed to be the original "dragoon" used by, well, dragoons :grin: Some kind of inaccurate but powerful firearm to be wielded on horseback and more akin to crowd control than actual aimed shots.
I am not well schooled in firearms, so I will take your expertise into account here and rearrange them to suit.
Just a few suggestions, again. I have modded M&B for myself and know how much work it is especially creating new models and skins. So please don't take my suggestions as nagging, it really isn't meant this way :smile:
Thank you for your continuing reports, they are helpful
 
Angry Newbie said:
Vangar said:
Regarding "cavemen" - I think most tribes look too primitive and deserve some kind of overhaul. For instance the Karkans: When I was visiting Mountaintop, I noticed that they prefer to run around there "naked" and prefer crude weapons made of sticks and stones. Additionally, they use huge natural caves. The latter is cool but I think the whole Karkan design is a bit too "stone-age". Considering that they probably sit on the biggest ore stash on the island and managed to settle in such harsh conditions should lead them probably to a stage of development where they develop basic or even advanced metalworking skills.

While i agree that they do feel a little too primitive, sitting on resources doesn't necessarily make them more advanced. Take the natives in the UP of my home state, Michigan. they had copper, they knew how to work copper, but they where not any more advanced then the natives around them.

While i want to keep the naked/loin-clothed skins we already have, i would like to branch out to trousers and advanced spears. The thing with that is, of course i don't want to conflict with crossbow joes vision.

We actually have all of the factions with a backround "historic" faction. Snakes are a hybrid of Mayan, Aztec and Incan culture for instance.

I noticed the similarities between the Snakes and the South American tribes.  Also, I still say that Michigan shouldn't have the UP.  :p (Wisconsinite, sorry)

I can't remember the name of that tribe.  You also have to remember Vangar, it took thousands of years for humans to figure out how to draw cave paintings on walls, and even longer to understand how to work metals.  They are immensely primitive, but I have to agree, they are a bit too primitive.

Crossbow Joe:  That screenshot looks AMAZING.  Can't wait.  :grin:
 
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