An open letter from the Kingdoms of Arda team, and the total-conversion mod community

[sakirma]

Obviously, it would be better not to have internals or constants. But even in my mods, I'm using constants - especially if there are too many pass-by-referencing going on. This is a practice I got since my early days. Now, one can say "you are doing this because you don't want people to change it" and I would say "No? I'm just doing this because this is how I write code, that's my style and memorywise it's more optimized." And if their aim was making them inaccessible, they could simply obfuscate those files so that none of us would read and understand what the hell it was doing. (and yes you can even reverse it but no one would do that)

Look man, we don't have to argue about coding practices. Harmony shouldn't be used for a game that is claimed to be moddable. The company doesn't want us to use it.

I understand you are playing the devil's advocate but even devils make mistakes, this whole topic from making the game a better place for modders is shifting away.
if you llllove to use Harmony then this whole post shouldn't matter to you

 

[adrakken]

Take a good look at the Total War community, games are getting less and less modable.

And yes, it clearly needs to be addressed by TW directly at some point but then again, the developers are not really reading the posts in the Modding section.

You mean except for those games that are not getting less and less modable...

Ark, Conan Exiles, Empyrion Galactic Survival, Sims 4, Fallout, Skyrim (FYI Bethesda already reached out to the major modders of Skyrim for ES6), GTA 5 is more moddable than 4 and there are literally 100s of others that are not scaling back moddability. Why did you pick one of the FEW games series that is? Again, that is called damage control...this is the age where even games built around CONSOLES are highly moddable, No Man's Sky, Monster Hunter, Dark Souls and so many others have mods where 5+ years ago how many console games had mods?!? a handful.

But again, that is a distraction from the actual issue...and we expect moderators to bring what the community is saying to those above you so the developers find out...we NEED you as a community leader. This issue actually is the most important issue this game is facing and if you have played the originals, you know it is.

 

[Bloc]

game that is claimed to be moddable.

Game is advertised to be modding friendly.
Game is not advertised to be modding friendly moment it hits the Steam as EA.

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you are playing the devil's advocate

lol I'm the last person that would defend TW about their approaches and such.

If you have no arguments, you don't have to post. The letter itself is mentioning about Harmony 7 times already, so it's not related to me using Harmony or not. It's about you expecting an unfinished game to support modding as if it's finished or as if it's a game engine - and it's unrealistic. I explained why this is currently not the case and how TW works. If you want to ignore those facts and go to your dreamland for Unity-like Bannerlord Engine, have fun.

Game being in EA stage cannot be an excuse for it's lame features or communication issues or bugs that are there since the first version but it can be an excuse for not having all the methods accessible for modders.

 

[adrakken]

Game being in EA stage cannot be an excuse for it's lame features or communication issues or bugs that are there since the first version but it can be an excuse for not having all the methods accessible for modders.

Yes, this must be remembered...just as it needs to be remembered that the letter and the mod teams behind it, and at least some of us showing them support are saying that this issue needs to be addressed by TW. All it will take from them is a short game update thread from them making a statement about it. They dont need to make a list of the changes that will be made, but we do need to know if the hardcoding they are adding is going to be removed by release or not and if they plan on doing more hardcoding if they are not going to unlock them.

A simple word would be nice. I understand perfectly how vast changes can come in a game for modding...for almost 3 full years those of us that own Empyrion: GS have been begging the developers to open up modding even more and got little from them other than "it may or may not happen" and at a few points an "Its not even possible" but with persistence and not just letting it go, they ended up not only removing hardcoding on what people were asking for but they did it for almost every single thing in the game about 4 months back...it is nearly a completely moddable game from top to bottom where before their change it was perhaps 30-35%.

So if they just let us know what the future is bringing in terms of what we are seeing with the increased hard-coding and how its making modding so hard, it could ease tensions that are greatly increasing...before...we start losing our best modding teams...could go a long way for the future of the game.

 

[bishey]

I think it's going to be a massive undertaking after release to go over the entire code base, document it and make it modder friendly. TaleWorlds is prioritizing finishing their game which makes sense for them but sooner or later, they will have to pay all this tech debt.

Developing total conversion mods during early access is a risky undertaking. A lot of your code might become unusable overnight. Yet, it would still be beneficial to the modders. As you write the code, you learn a lot and make important decisions. Even if your code becomes outdated, you will still retain the information.

It's just an unfortunate reality of the situation. It feels like the Bannerlord dev team is understaffed and they just don't have the time to document or make the game moddable.

 

[aekilju]

I appreciate the modders who took the time to write this great feedback that will probably not get any substantial response if past interactions are anything to judge by.

 

[Jance]

I appreciate the modders who took the time to write this great feedback that will probably not get any substantial response if past interactions are anything to judge by.

The post has only been up for a few hours, we gotta give them a chance :p

I just hope all this effort isn't deflected by a cookie-cutter corporatized response. That would be quite disappointing.

 

[Mad Vader]

When people were starting mod threads even before EA, it looked foolishly impatient.
Now at least they have a game in their hands and it's not that foolish, but obviously still too early for the state of the game. I don't know who expected modding support to be a priority for Taleworlds given their history of poor mod support, but obviously EA is too early for the big mods as systems will get revamped and there is chopping and changing in every patch and modding support is the LAST on the Taleworlds' to-do list. This was predictable, so outrage about this happening now is a bit misguided.
While I support modders' rights etc., and their requests are reasonable, it can be argued that their expectations of this EA and Taleworlds' priorities were unrealistic (which seems also to be the gist of Bloc's view).
People can continue to develop a major mod under these harsh conditions, but for folks that don't need their mod to be first on the market or simply don't want to waste time, it's far more sensible to wait for the end of EA and stability and greater modding support.
Now let's see how Taleworlds treats a powerful modding syndicate, which is not an ordinary peasant mob. My guess is that Duh will step in again on his own and end up doing most of the work, if his bosses could be persuaded to let him do something.

 

[Jance]

When people were starting mod threads even before EA, it looked foolishly impatient.
Now at least they have a game in their hands and it's not that foolish, but obviously still too early for the state of the game. I don't know who expected modding support to be a priority for Taleworlds given their history of poor mod support, but obviously EA is too early for the big mods as systems will get revamped and there is chopping and changing in every patch and modding support is the LAST on the Taleworlds' to-do list. This was predictable, so outrage about this happening now is a bit misguided.
While I support modders' rights etc., and their requests are reasonable, it can be argued that their expectations of this EA and Taleworlds' priorities were unrealistic (which seems also to be the gist of Bloc's view).
People can continue to develop a major mod under these harsh conditions, but for folks that don't need their mod to be first on the market or simply don't want to waste time, it's far more sensible to wait for the end of EA and stability and greater modding support.
Now let's see how Taleworlds treats a powerful modding syndicate, which is not an ordinary peasant mob. My guess is that Duh will step in again on his own and end up doing most of the work, if his bosses could be persuaded to let him do something.

I'd recommend reading the "How TaleWorlds Can Resolve These Problems" section in our letter again. Most of the problems we explicitly mention are extremely easy to resolve, and would make modding significantly easier.

 

[Mad Vader]

I'd recommend reading the "How TaleWorlds Can Resolve These Problems" section in our letter again. Most of the problems we explicitly mention are extremely easy to resolve, and would make modding significantly easier.

1. Hiring an intern to write documentation? Interns don't know ****, you need senior programmers to do this, and you know they don't have the time or don't want to. You'll need to wait for this until they are done with major development.
2. Removing "internal" judiciously is also something that needs to be done by a senior engineer, but agreed this is the easiest and most important thing they could do.
3. Improving communication and collaboration? So they would give you heads up on new features and you'll tell them what you need from them? Simply not going to happen because they prefer the secretive flexibility they have over potential player drama and disappointment.

Edit: I understand that from modders' perspective, you are doing very important work - you are basically making them money while you work for free and that entitles you to be listened to. But that's not how Taleworlds sees it. They have their own problems to deal with and helping modders is last on their list. Whatever the current situation with modders leaving or rebelling, they can count on the fact that more modders will come as long as their base game is popular with players.

 

[Jance]

1. Hiring an intern to write documentation? Interns don't know ****, you need senior programmers to do this, and you know they don't have the time or don't want to. You'll need to wait for this until they are done with major development.
2. Removing "internal" judiciously is also something that needs to be done by a senior engineer, but agreed this is the easiest and most important thing they could do.
3. Improving communication and collaboration? So they would give you heads up on new features and you'll tell them what you need from them? Simply not going to happen because they prefer the secretive flexibility they have over potential player drama and disappointment.

I appreciate you sharing your opinion, but as a professional software engineer I can say with confidence that your assumptions are incorrect.

Interns are certainly capable of writing up documentation. They work in the same office as the people who wrote the code, and are fully capable of asking "how does this work", then relaying that response to mod developers via the official documentation.

Replacing the "internal" keyword with "public" or "private" has no adverse effects on any code. The only purpose it serves is to prevent it by being used by external assemblies. Also, senior engineers tend to work on high level architecture and performance critical code instead of wasting their time on monotonous tasks like replacing keywords. Arguably, an intern would be perfect for this task as well.

Finally, it takes a miniscule amount of effort to tell the community what you are up to and keep modders in the loop. The benefits to this are huge. By just giving us a heads up that "feature x is being heavily refactored", we know not to waste our time working on feature x. Not only that, but it gives us a chance to give them feedback. By working behind closed doors, every update is a complete surprise and makes mod development significantly more volatile.

Your username fits your tone very accurately. We are just trying to have a productive conversation here

 

[Mad Vader]

I'm not arguing that you shouldn't get what you want, I'm speculating why you won't get all you want. I'm a former modder myself, so I do have some perspective both on your problems and Taleworlds' attitude. But let's wait for their response before I make a snarky "I told you so" reply.

 

[larrylai]

Well~ it seems that some of my favorite mods are encountering modding issues hope it get fixed soon

 

[Kingfoxx]

I think alot of people are missing the point here. If the TW team are suffering because of covid or maybe they have a detailed plan on how they want things to go out then I'm sure most people are OK with that. Unfortunately it's the lack of communication that's the big issue. People get frustrated when they feel left in the dark. As a modder how do you explain to people that your mod is broken and you have no idea when or if it will be fixed? If TW had a bit more open communication and let us know where they are at, then I think most of the community would feel alot better.
Anyways despite this, thanks to TW and the modding community for the work everyone has put in this far.

 

[Yabloko]

Bannerlord's development seems to be weighed down by TW's internal issues (something more than Covid). I agree with the sentiment of the letter and hope they spare some resources to make modder's lives easier, but that said, I think TW should focus on coming out of EA with a polished game first.

 

[Eärendil Ardamírë]

You mean except for those games that are not getting less and less modable...

Ark, Conan Exiles, Empyrion Galactic Survival, Sims 4, Fallout, Skyrim (FYI Bethesda already reached out to the major modders of Skyrim for ES6), GTA 5 is more moddable than 4 and there are literally 100s of others that are not scaling back moddability. Why did you pick one of the FEW games series that is? Again, that is called damage control...this is the age where even games built around CONSOLES are highly moddable, No Man's Sky, Monster Hunter, Dark Souls and so many others have mods where 5+ years ago how many console games had mods?!? a handful.

I am sorry for picking that example but it's the only other game series which I played and about which I know that they are getting less modable with time. I played none of the games which you named, so I assume you are right here, point given to you. See my game choice simply as an example at which it goes into the reverse direction.

But again, that is a distraction from the actual issue...and we expect moderators to bring what the community is saying to those above you so the developers find out...we NEED you as a community leader. This issue actually is the most important issue this game is facing and if you have played the originals, you know it is.

I think you missunderstand the role of a moderator: We are moderating the forum, encouraging discussion and try to make the forum a nice place to be, nothing more. If you want someone who is communicating the needs of the community to the developers, that's what the community managers like Dejan or Duh are for. It's not like we moderators have some kind of privilege access channel to the developers. Mind that John_M is another moderator who wrote here in favour of the open letter, who is actually a moderator at the Bannerlord modding section and who is also leader of the 'Kingdoms of Arda' mod team, probably the base initiator of the open letter.

+1 also for MadVaders post. Like he wrote:

I'm not arguing that you shouldn't get what you want, I'm speculating why you won't get all you want.

 

[Swyter]

For what it's worth, I agree with the sentiment of the letter. Making the game less hacky and hardcoded, as well as paying attention when making subsystems should benefit the game in the long run and it's a sign of quality, of something that can be reasonably improved upon.

People are just asking for some basic framework; in some ways the original M&B beta was more open, and players modded it to Zendar and back. Even with the incompatibility between versions. So let's try to recapture that spirit.

You can't suddenly make the game more moddable right at the end, this is something that needs to be architected before these parts get turned into stone.

The best time to do it was a few years ago, the next best time to do it is today.

This is some great feedback, where people have brainstormed and are spelling out their needs to you in condensed form.

--

Just keep in mind that I don't think there was a conscious decision of making the original game moddable, and it was more of a side effect of how it was made. Props to them for sharing the module system openly, and for pioneering the early access concept in a shareware world. But it was like catching lightning in a bottle, a happy accident.

The community has always made their own tools and research. After 2009 or so, and barring some multiplayer Warband betas and the original bugtracker, direct communication with the forum has been deficient, anemic, to put it mildly.

We would have loved to see them around in the Q&A threads, but to this day there are undocumented operations and flags in things like the BRF format or animations that needed to be reverse-engineered.

Thanks to the total conversion-turned-DLCs we got some much needed improvements, removal of limitations and fixes that we had been requesting for years. Almost right at the end of the golden age of Warband modding.

So yeah, it's never late to change, I think.

 

[Alemismun]

+1
Wholeheartedly agree.

 

[Rivet]

LOL defending the TW in this point is a sh***ng to own community nest. You are a troll or fake TW employees accounts. If TW relase the modding tools it would be fitting to take care of it. The more that they said that they would do so. BL Online show us how important to the community and the game live are mods. How popular they are. Players don't care if the game is on EA or not. This game has been in production for 8 years (theoretically)

 

[produno]

I for one have hardly started work on my own modification for Bannerlord, for most of the reasons outlined in the open letter. I completely understand peoples concerns here regarding giving the devs the time they need to work on getting the game to a finished and fully playable state but they should have some kind of roadmap as to what they expect modders to be able to achieve, not only because this dictates the architecture of the game but it also dictates current coding practices used throughout the development team (Which is probably apparent with the use of the Internal declaration). A little feedback regarding this would be welcomed from anyone at TW, though I wont get my hopes up .

TW attempting to allow full compatibility between all mods leads me to think they are trying to discourage full conversion based modifications. Seeing the current concerns here has only strengthened my views on this. Though I do hope this is not the case.

I think the letter is fair and just. There are a lot of people waiting for Bannerlord to enable us to bring our projects to life in full glory and after Warband we are all hoping for great things. Hopefully the discussion here allows TW to see our concerns and to help them ensure they start laying the correct foundations to allow us modders to do what we require for our modifications. Or at least for them to give some kind of feedback for what we can all expect in the future.

In an ideal world I would like for total conversion mods to be treated differently. We should be able to place our module at the bottom of the load order and have that overwrite everything else above it. Expecting us to have our mods in several folders and trying to direct users where they must place these folders is unintuitive and problematic.