An open letter from the Kingdoms of Arda team, and the total-conversion mod community

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Their main priority should be fixing the game and get it to the full release, not to feed to the needs of the modding community. I am fully agreeing with Bloc here, so +1 for him.
If only there was a group of people interested in making the game a more interesting game to play. hmmmm if only. I guess we will never know. But atleasy Warband vanilla is still being played a alot right?
 
better communication
That has never been a strenght of TW and will most probably not change.
They released the mod tools
They probably wouldn't have done so if modders wouldn't have nagged them about the tools constantly. So you can see this as a point at which they actually listen a bit even if there are good reasons why they should have waited with them as well until the full release.
If only there was a group of people interested in making the game a more interesting game to play. hmmmm if only. I guess we will never know. But atleasy Warband vanilla is still being played a ****t ton right?
If you would only be able to bring forward a proper argument, hmmmm, if only. I guess we will never get one by you.
 
Fixing your code after you supposedly finished the game will take way longer than keeping the modders in mind while creating the features as you go.
"Fixing" is not the correct term in there, that's why I didn't just say fix without quotation marks. Making a code piece more accessible is not fixing it but making it.. well.. more accessible.
And that can take time - however, designing that in the beginning by thinking about the modders would take more time. Especially if your design can change/gets updated/revised etc. before the deadline. And this happens quite often in the game industry.
Doesnt the game litteraly run a mod called native to start the game. That looks like the game engine running a game called native.
Native and SandBox modules are required to play the native game, yes. This, in theory, same with Warband as well. Not sure what do you want by pointing this out?

The argument is that TW has specifically said that they have made certain things internal to enforce better compatibility between mods. If you don't believe that, alright, then hopefully TW could clarify on the matter.
I don't think that argument makes any sense ( code-wise). Patching is more compatibility friendly than basic overriding.
Anyway, this ( internal consts etc ) was how they were doing things for awhile already - so for some parts perhaps someone naively thought applying this would resolve their conflict issues with mods or in-between mods without knowing anything about patching.
But yes, let's see if TW clarify this matter or not. Or better, if they decide to take action before EA ends.

A decent sized part of the community is asking their needs be taken into account and for better communication.
If we don’t, in 2 or 3 years a lot of them would have moved on (some people already are) and people will say we should have made ourselves known sooner.
Well, this is related to their internal management and not something I can say about it.
As I said, I would support having more transparent layers and more accessible code too. But letter is kinda stating that they are being hostile to the modders intentionally and creating bumps to their roads just because they don't like to support modders right now. And that statement/behaviour is not fair.

its related to the part where you said using harmony is easy
And? It's still easy.
 
"Fixing" is not the correct term in there, that's why I didn't just say fix without quotation marks. Making a code piece more accessible is not fixing it but making it.. well.. more accessible.
And that can take time - however, designing that in the beginning by thinking about the modders would take more time. Especially if your design can change/gets updated/revised etc. before the deadline. And this happens quite often in the game industry.

Native and SandBox modules are required to play the native game, yes. This, in theory, same with Warband as well. Not sure what do you want by pointing this out?


I don't think that argument makes any sense ( code-wise). Patching is more compatibility friendly than basic overriding.
Anyway, this ( internal consts etc ) was how they were doing things for awhile already - so for some parts perhaps someone naively thought applying this would resolve their conflict issues with mods or in-between mods without knowing anything about patching.
But yes, let's see if TW clarify this matter or not. Or better, if they decide to take action before EA ends.


Well, this is related to their internal management and not something I can say about it.
As I said, I would support having more transparent layers and more accessible code too. But letter is kinda stating that they are being hostile to the modders intentionally and creating bumps to their roads just because they don't like to support modders right now. And that statement/behaviour is not fair.


And? It's still easy.
you're ignoring his reply, he just answered why using harmony can cause problems. im telling you that he was refering to the part where you said harmony is easy. now you're just moving the goal post by saying that harmony is easy while that was never the issue with my reply.
 
That has never been a strenght of TW and will most probably not change.

They probably wouldn't have done so if modders wouldn't have nagged them about the tools constantly. So you can see this as a point at which they actually listen a bit even if there are good reasons why they should have waited with them as well until the full release.

If you would only be able to bring forward a proper argument, hmmmm, if only. I guess we will never get one by you.
I am, im telling you that there is an army waiting to bring out awesome stuff by making the game a better game by modding it. As I said, vanilla warband is never played anymore. you just cant see the importance of modding in a game as bannerlord
 
you're ignoring his reply, he just answered why using harmony can cause problems. im telling you that he was refering to the part where you said harmony is easy. now you're just moving the goal post by saying that harmony is easy while that was never the issue with my reply.
Lol. What the hell are you talking about?
Read what I wrote in there then.
It's naive to assume that TW is using internal keyword just to enforce modders to a certain path, while even a 5 y.o. can use Harmony and by-pass that enforcement.
I said putting internal makes no sense because Harmony is easy to use. So there is no "enforcement". It's same as putting a single door without any walls and assuming that no one will pass that door.

If they wouldn't use the internal, at best what modders could do ( without Harmony ) would be overriding the entire function body ( assuming that they don't wanna re-invent and do the exact same stuff that harmony does )
And overriding/changing the entire function body is worst than patching it. It creates MORE compatibility issues. And with Harmony you can still patch it completely. So what exactly is the point in here? Internal or not, if you are changing a function, you should be ready for the fact that it can get screwed in the next update.
 
Lol. What the hell are you talking about?
Read what I wrote in there then.

I said putting internal makes no sense because Harmony is easy to use. So there is no "enforcement". It's same as putting a single door without any walls and assuming that no one will pass that door.

If they wouldn't use the internal, at best what modders could do ( without Harmony ) would be overriding the entire function body ( assuming that they don't wanna re-invent and do the exact same stuff that harmony does )
And overriding/changing the entire function body is worst than patching it. It creates MORE compatibility issues. And with Harmony you can still patch it completely. So what exactly is the point in here? Internal or not, if you are changing a function, you should be ready for the fact that it can get screwed in the next update.
You can't override the entire internal function body, what are you talking about. Almost all of the coders working on the major overhaul are signing on and confirming these issues. Harmony is just adding more steps and dependance
 
"Fixing" is not the correct term in there, that's why I didn't just say fix without quotation marks. Making a code piece more accessible is not fixing it but making it.. well.. more accessible.
If the problem was only removing the internal classes then I would agree, but, as stated in the letter there are other issues that also need fixing.
And that can take time - however, designing that in the beginning by thinking about the modders would take more time. Especially if your design can change/gets updated/revised etc. before the deadline. And this happens quite often in the game industry.
Designing a game with modders in mind would not take more time and if done right, would save TW lots of hours refactoring an already existing codebase. Besides, I would agree with your statement if modding wasn't such a huge part of the mount and blade franchise. Not taking modding into account while designing the game is a huge missed opportunity and sadly its shows.
 
Just react, refute what I say. you know im right.
You are not bringing any arguments into the discussion, so not really worth the time.
I am, im telling you that there is an army waiting to bring out awesome stuff by making the game a better game by modding it. As I said, vanilla warband is never played anymore. you just cant see the importance of modding in a game as bannerlord
If you think that this is an useful argument in this discussion, I have to disappoint you. I am very well aware of the amount of modders around waiting to get a better grip at modding the game and bringing new features into it. It is however still not their time to shine. The game is in early access, a better modding support shouldn't be expected until full release.
 
You are not bringing any arguments into the discussion, so not really worth the time.

If you think that this is an useful argument in this discussion, I have to disappoint you. I am very well aware of the amount of modders around waiting to get a better grip at modding the game and bringing new features into it. It is however still not their time to shine. The game is in early access, a better modding support shouldn't be expected until full release.
Let me explain it to you, the game has been in Early access for a year. We've been getting new features that dont add any depth into the game, you play the game and it's the same game since release. Siege AI after a year is still broken but atleast we got child education into the game am I right? My point is that the game is the same game after a year. Sure it might be more balanced? Less bugs? Sure, I expect that from a Beta release but not from an Early Access release.

They arent covering the grounds they need to cover. They can add all the updates they want but if the game is still the game after a whole year it should ring a bell telling you're doing something wrong.
Integrating modding can be a valid way do improve on the game.

You say that better modding support shouldnt be expected untill full release, why? Taleworlds literally has 100s of modders on the side working for free trying to make the game better and therefore increasing Taleworlds revenue.

If you think saying ''It's early access'' is productive be my guest, I can live with that since I know you're not on the Bannerlord development team.
 
You are not bringing any arguments into the discussion, so not really worth the time.

If you think that this is an useful argument in this discussion, I have to disappoint you. I am very well aware of the amount of modders around waiting to get a better grip at modding the game and bringing new features into it. It is however still not their time to shine. The game is in early access, a better modding support shouldn't be expected until full release.
This is a fair point but do you not agree that if we don’t say something now and get them at least thinking about it, that in 1 or 2 years the majority of modders will have moved on seeing it as a lost cause?

I think it is time for the modders to shine and this doesn’t necessarily mean actually making mods, it also means being recognised as an important part of the community and communicated with in a correct way that makes both parties happy as well as getting our opinions across.

Because let’s face it, if this post is complete ignored (an example only) or we are told “suck it up, wait another 2 years until the game is complete” most modders won’t come back.
A lot of early access games get stuck in early access for longer than that and waiting until the game is nearer completion means that a huge amount of people won’t be there to play it.

I’ve seen it time and time again with many early access games and this is exactly how it starts every single time, some still make it but a lot also don’t.
It always starts with poor communication and features no one wants while other things people are asking for get neglected.


Or do you think that is wrong?
 
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You can't override the entire internal function body, what are you talking about
You can skip function body so that you basically override it by intercepting its call.
Anyway, not gonna waste much time with your ranting
Designing a game with modders in mind would not take more time and if done right, would save TW lots of hours refactoring an already existing codebase.
Frankly, you previously stated that you are a student, hence I won't give you a Masterclass in here but that's not the case in real life. You can design all you want, next day design can change and your previous efforts can see the end of trashbin super quickly. And all your previous efforts to design something "moddable" will be a waste since new design == new requirements.

In theory, you are not completely off, if you design something in a way, you should stick to that. But TW is not working like. They do it, they like it, they are making sure that it will stay and then making it moddable/accessible. This is a management/design issue - and it's beyond the scope of this discussion at the moment. Not even modding support can fix this mess up.

Because let’s face it, if this post is complete ignored (an example only) or we are told “suck it up, wait another 2 years until the game is complete” most modders won’t come back.
Hate to say this but TW is not checking the forum much - so in theory this will be ignored anyway. Perhaps at best Dejan say something about that in meetings but that's all. It's not easy to change TW's vision - especially while they are already fighting with big issues like non-functional sieges and such.
But that being said, I think no one is objecting to this in here, I and Earendil are merely saying that TW's priority isn't this at the moment. And it would be good if they suddenly change their mind and put effort into this. But that's unlikely when you consider TW's history and pace and "priorities". It's better not to set bar too high when it comes to TW. I mean, Bannerlord doesn't even have banners in it officially ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Its clear the actual issues are once again going to be pushed aside and buried.

There are so many people behind the contents of this letter and for business as usual to be happening with this is just plain disgusting. The amount of "Its early access" replies is insane. This is not an early access issue. Its a THINGS THAT SHOULD NOT BE HARDCODED ARE BEING HARDCODED ISSUE.

No, Harmony being easy or not, is not an answer either. Harmony has its issues and all this is doing is vastly increasing the work modders have to put in while greatly increasing the amount of errors. crashes and conflicts that are going to arise as more and more of this keeps getting added into the game.

How the hell has this even happened? TW is one of the few companies in history that was literally built off of its game being modded, to the point they even worked with a modding team for one of their expansions (which are not expansions but total conversion mods!). Yet somehow magically all these things that goes against making the game easier to mod? Makes no damn sense at all and seeing the actual issue brought forward by so many modding teams just get tossed aside like this is literally making me sick to the point I am altering my review of the game on Steam to telling people to hold off on buying the game if they are expecting a rich modding environment thanks to current development paths being taken to put up roadblocks and hoops for modders to jump through to do things that should be easy.

This issue clearly needs to be addressed by TW directly, and not by moderators doing damage control.
 
You can skip function body so that you basically override it by intercepting its call.
Okay, this argument can go on forever. There's always a lower level at which you can intercept calls, patch cpu instructions, etc. The entire point of the internal keyword is to make classes/methods/etc. inaccessible outside of their original assembly. Sure, there are cumbersome ways of getting around this, but that doesn't mean that they should be internal in the first place.
 
Let me explain it to you, the game has been in Early access for a year. We've been getting new features that dont add any depth into the game, you play the game and it's the same game since release. Siege AI after a year is still broken but atleast we got child education into the game am I right? My point is that the game is the same game after a year. Sure it might be more balanced? Less bugs? Sure, I expect that from a Beta release but not from an Early Access release.

They arent covering the grounds they need to cover. They can add all the updates they want but if the game is still the game after a whole year it should ring a bell telling you're doing something wrong.
Integrating modding can be a valid way do improve on the game.

You say that better modding support shouldnt be expected untill full release, why? Taleworlds literally has 100s of modders on the side working for free trying to make the game better and therefore increasing Taleworlds revenue.

If you think saying ''It's early access'' is productive be my guest, I can live with that since I know you're not on the Bannerlord development team.
I am aware of the facts and the problems. The arguments due to which I (and Bloc) think that their priorities should lay otherwise are written in the comments before, be my guest to reread them. Also it's not really a secret that I am not on the Bannerlord development team, I mean the rank should indicate that already :lol:
This is a fair point but do you not agree that if we don’t say something now and get them at least thinking about it, that in 1 or 2 years the majority of modders will have moved on seeing it as a lost cause?

I think it is time for the modders to shine and this doesn’t necessarily mean actually making mods, it also means being recognised as an important part of the community and communicated with in a correct way that makes both parties happy as well as getting our opinions across.

Because let’s face it, if this post is complete ignored (an example only) or we are told “suck it up, wait another 2 years until the game is complete” most modders won’t come back.
A lot of early access games get stuck in early access for longer than that and waiting until the game is nearer completion means that a huge amount of people won’t be there to play it.

I’ve seen it time and time again with many early access games and this is exactly how it starts every single time, some still make it but a lot also don’t.


Or do you think that is wrong?
I have nothing against you saying something about the troubles. It gives them feedback from another corner which can be useful for them. I only point out why I think it isn't really feasible at this point.
Hate to say this but TW is not checking the forum much - so in theory this will be ignored anyway. Perhaps at best Dejan say something about that in meetings but that's all. It's not easy to change TW's vision - especially while they are already fighting with big issues like non-functional sieges and such.
But that being said, I think no one is objecting to this in here, I and Earendil are merely saying that TW's priority isn't this at the moment. And it would be good if they suddenly change their mind and put effort into this. But that's unlikely when you consider TW's history and pace and "priorities". It's better not to set bar too high when it comes to TW. I mean, Bannerlord doesn't even have banners in it officially ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
^ This. It's simply looking at how they behaved in the past.
How the hell has this even happened? TW is one of the few companies in history that was literally built off of its game being modded, to the point they even worked with a modding team for one of their expansions (which are not expansions but total conversion mods!). Yet somehow magically all these things that goes against making the game easier to mod? Makes no damn sense at all and seeing the actual issue brought forward by so many modding teams just get tossed aside like this is literally making me sick to the point I am altering my review of the game on Steam to telling people to hold off on buying the game if they are expecting a rich modding environment thanks to current development paths being taken to put up roadblocks and hoops for modders to jump through to do things that should be easy.
Take a good look at the Total War community, games are getting less and less modable.
Makes no damn sense at all and seeing the actual issue brought forward by so many modding teams just get tossed aside like this is literally making me sick to the point I am altering my review of the game on Steam to telling people to hold off on buying the game if they are expecting a rich modding environment thanks to current development paths being taken to put up roadblocks and hoops for modders to jump through to do things that should be easy.

This issue clearly needs to be addressed by TW directly, and not by moderators doing damage control.
I am merely writting my own opinion here. We are not tossing the issue away, we are no developers of the game nor part of the company developing it, it's not even my moderating section. I am also not trying to do damage controll here, so hold your breath. And yes, it clearly needs to be addressed by TW directly at some point but then again, the developers are not really reading the posts in the Modding section.
 
So basically, what they are doing is not "adverse" to modding but simply following what they were doing in last 3 years.
ah yes the game that has been advertised as modding friendly for years doesn't have to be modding friendly. what the **** am I reading.
Bannerlord wasn't even announced as an Early Access title less than a year prior to release after, let's be generous, 8 years of development. And I expected the release up until that point to contain a map editor, server files and modding tools, but it took a lot of time and some still hasn't been fully converted to our needs. That's why it has hit everyone hard prior, at and even after the release since you can't expect everyone to be reading every devblog or actively search every forum post by a TW employee for details. TL;DR: I understand the frustration overhaul mod teams face since it's been a year already and still nothing. The game was advertised as such, but they even edited their Steam Store page prior to release to contain less information about the modability. Check archive.is or web.archive.org. They've in the meanwhile focused on patches, scenery, balance, but idk, stuff still crashes. People call Star Citizen vaporware, but yeah... Evidently, the lack of documentation isn't reserved for the in-game server etiquette where you get redirected to the forum rules, but the modding documentation also seem lackluster.
 
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Okay, this argument can go on forever. There's always a lower level at which you can intercept calls, patch cpu instructions, etc. The entire point of the internal keyword is to make classes/methods/etc. inaccessible outside of their original assembly. Sure, there are cumbersome ways of getting around this, but that doesn't mean that they should be internal in the first place.
And I'm not disagreeing with that.
However, this is a bad practice that TW adopted over the years - not something intentional to cut modding support. It could be that some of the developers were putting it as a "barrier" for modders but as you can see and know, that's not actually a solution and I don't think ( or know ) that this is company-wide agreed protection.

Obviously, it would be better not to have internals or constants. But even in my mods, I'm using constants - especially if there are too many pass-by-referencing going on. This is a practice I got since my early days. Now, one can say "you are doing this because you don't want people to change it" and I would say "No? I'm just doing this because this is how I write code, that's my style and memorywise it's more optimized." And if their aim was making them inaccessible, they could simply obfuscate those files so that none of us would read and understand what the hell it was doing. (and yes you can even reverse it but no one would do that)
 
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