An open letter from the Kingdoms of Arda team, and the total-conversion mod community

[Mad Vader]

The solutions to some of these problems are actually very simple. TaleWorlds could hire an intern

This is how many problems in Bannerlord were created in the first place.

 

[Bloc]

ah yes the game that has been advertised as modding friendly for years doesn't have to be modding friendly. what the **** am I reading.

No idea what the **** you are reading. I would advise you to scroll up and read again what I said.
Game is advertised to be modding friendly.
Game is not advertised to be modding friendly moment it hits the Steam as EA.
You can argue that this approach is silly, and I can agree. But they have no obligation to do this right now since they have to finalize the mushy gamecode they have in-front of them first.

As stated in the letter, choices and design philosophies were made with specific intent in how they wanted BL to be modded

Actually, the letter is based on an assumption. The letter assumes that random usage of internal keyword and using constants are intentional - to force modders' hand, whereas it's just a choice by the developer or perhaps choice of the responsible team.
As I said several times, TW has a messed up codebase and logic. But most of the time, there is no big picture or hidden agenda behind their choices.
It's naive to assume that TW is using internal keyword just to enforce modders to a certain path, while even a 5 y.o. can use Harmony and by-pass that enforcement.
Asking to make them public/accessible isn't bad. But it makes no sense for TW since I already explained how they work. "Do it, make it, run it, then change it to make it moddable"

off the top of my head the game main map campaign height used to be linked the the map itself.
Suddenly in 1.5.5 when you load a custom map you spawn below the ground and it uses the vanilla game height.
A group of very talented coders who I worked with from my mod and some others for together and found it had now been hardcoded into the game

And you think this has been done just to cripple the modding community - enforcing your team and other teams?
They probably hardcoded terrain/height-related stuff because they had to link that in their modding tool. This is one of the reasons why they can't always update the modding document - requires maintenance.

 

[Lonewarrior]

And you think this has been done just to cripple the modding community - enforcing your team and other teams?
They probably hardcoded terrain/height-related stuff because they had to link that in their modding tool. This is one of the reasons why they can't always update the modding document - requires maintenance.

Ha no not at all, it was working fine before that update. So it never had a problem with having to be linked.
In 1.5.4 I had a very stable mod relating to the map, never encountered any issue that would require such a drastic change.
Anyway the point is that making that kind of change doesn’t make sense when It was working perfectly before that, you could argue that they are laying down foundations for something in the future but it’s still a huge blow to myself and other total conversions at least because from our point of view (and a couple of people I’ve spoken to) see it like “if we can’t use this feature to mod we may as well just abandon it” because to some people this is gonna look like we won’t ever be able to mod that thing, when we could before.

Which I brings us to one of the main points:
Communication.
They don’t need to write up a ton of documents, a simple “changed this in modding tools and may affect this”

If I can find a bug in 1 minute of opening the mod tools and see what it will affect, there’s no reason the guys who know the game inside and out can’t make a note when they change something like that.

 

[John_M]

Actually, the letter is based on an assumption. The letter assumes that random usage of internal keyword and using constants are intentional - to force modders' hand, whereas it's just a choice by the developer or perhaps choice of the responsible team.
As I said several times, TW has a messed up codebase and logic. But most of the time, there is no big picture or hidden agenda behind their choices.
It's naive to assume that TW is using internal keyword just to enforce modders to a certain path, while even a 5 y.o. can use Harmony and by-pass that enforcement.
Asking to make them public/accessible isn't bad. But it makes no sense for TW since I already explained how they work. "Do it, make it, run it, then change it to make it moddable"

No, not an assumption, an explained act from TW doing what I had mentioned. I am working from second hand information on the point, so I won't make any other arguments or claims on that front.

 

[Namakan]

Do you believe that they will fix the issues pointed out here by the time we hit full release (which, by the way, is still in uh...about two weeks?)?

Making things internal has nothing to do with "just making it work first", it costs you nothing not to do - it just hinders modding efforts.
You can argue it wasn't intentional but honestly, if thats the case, it's worse than if done intentionally.

 

[Younes]

As a software engineer student with limited knowledge, putting a constant on height and length on map seems a bit weird i have to say.

 

[Stormlolwut]

As a software engineer student with a lot of knowledge it is still weird to put a constant height and lenght on the map

 

[John_M]

Do you believe that they will fix the issues pointed out here by the time we hit full release (which, by the way, is still in uh...about two weeks?)?

Awhile ago the message of "on track for 1 year" was maintained, but in a Turkish podcast( 30.01.2021.) the message was "They simply dont know when early access will end."

I haven't seen an update on the topic since the latter was said.

 

[Namakan]

Awhile ago the message of "on track for 1 year" was maintained, but in a Turkish podcast( 30.01.2021.) the message was "They simply dont know when early access will end."

I haven't seen an update on the topic since the latter was said.

I don't speak turkish so the last thing I know was our community manager saying they were on track. Would be nice to have an update I guess

 

[sakirma]

While even a 5 y.o. can use Harmony and by-pass that enforcement.

The modding community does know how to use Harmony but with every patch that comes out, there is a high chance that the harmony code will break. Modding communities are trying their best NOT to use Harmony but instead the code which is provided since this will create a mod that is maintainable and compatible with other mods.

In our communication with TaleWorlds, they advised us against using Harmony.

 

[Stormlolwut]

The modding community does know how to use Harmony but with every patch that comes out, there is a high chance that the harmony code will break. Modding communities are trying their best NOT to use Harmony but instead the code which is provided since this will create a mod that is maintainable and compatible with other mods.

In our communication with TaleWorlds, they advised us against using Harmony.

+1

 

[Eärendil Ardamírë]

I am only cherry picking my passages of the open letter at which I have had to smile a bit ^^

we think TaleWorlds’ priorities are highly misaligned with the needs of the modding community.

Their main priority should be fixing the game and get it to the full release, not to feed to the needs of the modding community. I am fully agreeing with Bloc here, so +1 for him.

The second of which is at least high-level documentation explaining how each system works, and how the maintainers intend for you to implement generic features.

An official documentation can't be worse than the official Warband one

This is the biggest reason why, to this day, not a single total-conversion mod has written any significant amounts of code outside of small tweaks and atomic mechanics.

At this point I would also not suggest to do so until the full release. Everything can be up for changes and will most probably break your work.

TaleWorlds could hire an intern with the sole task of documenting how you intend for us to extend and utilize everything from Gauntlet to FaceKey generation.

That's something which could have worked at Warband but I doubt you have now somebody with the overview above all aspects, even less when they are an intern. In the end people would only complain about the errors in the documentation which would also be a pain to keep updated constantly while the game gets developed.

 

[Bloc]

Ha no not at all, it was working fine before that update. So it never had a problem with having to be linked.
In 1.5.4 I had a very stable mod relating to the map, never encountered any issue that would require such a drastic change.
Anyway the point is that making that kind of change doesn’t make sense when It was working perfectly before that, you could argue that they are laying down foundations for something in the future but it’s still a huge blow to myself and other total conversions at least because from our point of view (and a couple of people I’ve spoken to) see it like “if we can’t use this feature to mod we may as well just abandon it” because to some people this is gonna look like we won’t ever be able to mod that thing, when we could before.

I'm saying that they probably changed for something else that they want to do. To make it easier to implement for themselves. Modders are not their concern in such cases - and shouldn't be. Would it be better if TW plays along and consider modders? Yes. But they don't have to do that right now.

If I can find a bug in 1 minute of opening the mod tools and see what it will affect, there’s no reason the guys who know the game inside and out can’t make a note when they change something like that.

Frankly, there are a lot of reasons why a guy can't or won't do that. It adds extra time and/or work. I know it's silly to call this as work, but by definition, it is work. And they have to spend time doing that. 1 minute, 20 minutes, 1 hour, doesn't matter. Especially if they want to have proper documentation, this should not be handled poorly.

No, not an assumption, an explained act from TW doing what I had mentioned. I am working from second hand information on the point, so I won't make any other arguments or claims on that front.

I know how TW code (or used to code). This is not a "my friend said" type of information, so I don't think anyone in the company gathered everyone and said "Hey guys, these modder dudes are pushing hard. Let's make it internal so that they can't access it."
I can assure you that, 5 years ago, TW was using the exact same internal/const logic in their codebase. Is it modding unfriendly? Yes. But I already explained that so yeah.

Do you believe that they will fix the issues pointed out here by the time we hit full release (which, by the way, is still in uh...about two weeks?)?

No. I'm saying that they will "fix" those issues after the release. If they still continue being stubborn and refuse to provide a proper documentation and guide for modding, then it's 100% on TW.

The modding community does know how to use Harmony but with every patch that comes out, there is a high chance that the harmony code will break. Modding communities are trying their best NOT to use Harmony but instead the code which is provided since this will create a mod that is maintainable and compatible with other mods.

In our communication with TaleWorlds, they advised us against using Harmony.

How's that related to what I said in there?

 

[Stormlolwut]

No. I'm saying that they will "fix" those issues after the release. If they still continue being stubborn and refuse to provide a proper documentation and guide for modding, then it's 100% on TW.

Fixing your code after you supposedly finished the game will take way longer than keeping the modders in mind while creating the features as you go.

 

[John_M]

I know how TW code (or used to code). This is not a "my friend said" type of information, so I don't think anyone in the company gathered everyone and said "Hey guys, these modder dudes are pushing hard. Let's make it internal so that they can't access it."
I can assure you that, 5 years ago, TW was using the exact same internal/const logic in their codebase. Is it modding unfriendly? Yes. But I already explained that so yeah.

The argument is that TW has specifically said that they have made certain things internal to enforce better compatibility between mods. If you don't believe that, alright, then hopefully TW could clarify on the matter.

 

[Shmboop]

I agree with you. But we also have to be realistic. TW is tunnel visioned since from closed beta and they will always have an EA shield about such topics. Once EA is out of the way, then they have no excuses.

As a person who worked on mods for BL since from Closed Beta, I don't think it would be logical for a company to waste their resources on this. This is not good for company or good for modders.
I don't think EA will last another year, they will release a somewhat stable game in 2021. With lame features? Yes. But that's how TW plans the finish the game. In this scenario, it's not logical to make this change while they can simply put all effort to make it stable as soon as possible.
If EA lasts longer, in that case it's also not logical to put effort on this since, as a modder, you will always have to update your code and read TW's codebase over and over to understand what has changed ( and why ) - you are saying that it's okay for you to adopt all these changes but it's not okay for the company to always think about this aspect while doing something or doing something experimental. They are not making an engine - it's a game, and it's in EA.

But as I said, would it be better if TW suddenly decides to go that path by accepting all the effort this might cause to them? Yes - for the modders and for the community. Since TW won't add anything meaningful into the game anywhere soon, mods are the only hope. But will they do this? Probably not - and as I explained, they don't have to do that anyway.

Doesnt the game litteraly run a mod called native to start the game. That looks like the game engine running a mod called native.

 

[Ettenrocal]

I understand totally modders disappointment but they have like everybody to wait a stable release of the game and modding tools... So if i understood well TW desire for inter mod compatibility ruined the code, how ironical, i always think this intermod compatibility was kind of dream, like people make they own super mod combining tons of little mods . So the total conversion mod are blocked to save this idea. I hope TW will take the advices, it's never too late to make good!

 

[Lonewarrior]

I know how TW code (or used to code). ?

Ok ok that’s fair but regardless.
A decent sized part of the community is asking their needs be taken into account and for better communication.
If we don’t, in 2 or 3 years a lot of them would have moved on (some people already are) and people will say we should have made ourselves known sooner.

Now is a good time to make our point before it’s too late which I’ve seen with other games.

They released the mod tools and if they don’t take notice which is what we are asking for, that’s when things go downhill.
Good games grow by listening to their player base, if we just stay silent it doesn’t do anyone any good.
Sometimes priorities need to change and adapt

 

[Shmboop]

I'm saying that they probably changed for something else that they want to do. To make it easier to implement for themselves. Modders are not their concern in such cases - and shouldn't be. Would it be better if TW plays along and consider modders? Yes. But they don't have to do that right now.

Frankly, there are a lot of reasons why a guy can't or won't do that. It adds extra time and/or work. I know it's silly to call this as work, but by definition, it is work. And they have to spend time doing that. 1 minute, 20 minutes, 1 hour, doesn't matter. Especially if they want to have proper documentation, this should not be handled poorly.


I know how TW code (or used to code). This is not a "my friend said" type of information, so I don't think anyone in the company gathered everyone and said "Hey guys, these modder dudes are pushing hard. Let's make it internal so that they can't access it."
I can assure you that, 5 years ago, TW was using the exact same internal/const logic in their codebase. Is it modding unfriendly? Yes. But I already explained that so yeah.


No. I'm saying that they will "fix" those issues after the release. If they still continue being stubborn and refuse to provide a proper documentation and guide for modding, then it's 100% on TW.


How's that related to what I said in there?

its related to the part where you said using harmony is easy

 

[eddiemccandless]

At this point I would also not suggest to do so until the full release. Everything can be up for changes and will most probably break your work.

And that at the end of the day is the main issue here. Like, I am sorry people but trying to do a full conversion mod for an unfinished game is just asking for trouble. As much as I want to see full conversion mods (and believe me, I do, I spent more time playing Prophesy of Pendor than pretty much any game I own) now is just not the time.