An idea for spears

[we4kf00l]

As we all know, spears in this game are hard to use and not very effective. I started thinking how this could be and I think I found the awnser.

First of all, spears are also passive weapons. Especcially in when fighting in formation, spears pointed forward would make it a lot harder for your enemy to get in close. A spear should be able to point forward while not attacking, rather then holding it high as the units do currently. And they should dammage the enemy when they walk into your spears themselves, without having you to attack.

Secondly, the great advantage of a spear is that you can stab the enemy while covering yourself with your shield. So you can attack while covering yourself. This to cannot be done in Mount and Blade and this makes the life for spearmen a lot harder then it shoudl.

What do you think and could these things be implented ?

I was thinking about a couched damage inspired script where, while defending with your shield (pressing the right mouse button) your spear would be aimed forward and the when your point touches the enemy, he would gain a (weak form of) couched lance damage.

If this could be implented, it would really make fighting with a spear more fun and doable.

 

[Ebin]

Um, how about whenever your stabbed you kind of like.... Stagger? I believe is the word I'm looking for? But that way it would be easier for the spear men to keep attackers at bay. Also the use of the shield bash is very helpful to knock the enemy down and draw a different weapon or run back, then charge them with a spear to inflict moderate-heavy damage depending on how high your athletics/powerstrike is.

 

[NacroxNicke]

Well, to maxim your attack with spear in M&B, you should aim at the upper right of the face of the bad guy, not at the face itself, just a little out of his face to the right

It sounds weird, but works, because of I-don't-know reason, you will deliver more damage than aim just at the chest or the centre of the face.

I used it on the Peloponnesian War mod, and it works

 

[Ebin]

Well, to maxim your attack with spear in M&B, you should aim at the upper right of the face of the bad guy, not at the face itself, just a little out of his face to the right

It sounds weird, but works, because of I-don't-know reason, you will deliver more damage than aim just at the chest or the centre of the face.

I used it on the Peloponnesian War mod, and it works

Because your hitting them in the face? Same works if your fighting heavily armored infantry with a sword. If you can't do much damage normally, do a slash from left to right while aiming higher and you will hit their head and do significantly more damage. Also, it's not the best tactic in the world for just fighting the norm, as it is easier to miss, and if they have moderate armor it's just as effective to just stab.

 

[ealabor]

Spears are already effective in the mod.

Thanks for the suggestion though.

 

[we4kf00l]

I am eager to try the spears in the mod and I believe you when I say that they are more effective.

I do not know however, wether or not the spear offers a realistic type of play. I hope you can confirm this. Because as in native, a row of spears does not really stop an assault as it should/could.

 

[Ebin]

Yeah  the overhand spears are actually very effective, at least in 0.960 they are. Although, I don't like the longer pikes. They seem to only be useful for a few secs of combat unless your fighting a unit staying in formation.

 

[SwissHalberdier]

I've got a funny story to that effect, OP.  Spears as passive weapons I mean.  One day, during the summer, nobody else showed up for my martial arts class but me and one of my juniors.  This is actually pretty common for summers, because most of our guys are university students.  Anyway, we're talking and he mentions that he has a particular interest in spears.  He says, however, that "spears are great but they're worthless if you get past the tip..." So, I laughed at him and told him to fetch us a practice sword and spear.  He comes back, we stand at about a couple meters distance, and I say "alright, try that."  Now, I'm not too good at spearmanship, but he tried to knock away the tip of my spear, and I neatly maneuvered the tip past the incoming blade and ended right in his face.  He couldn't get around the tip, and after 5 minutes or so of him trying numerous increasingly stupid maneuvers, he gave up.

The moral of the story is that the inherent weaknesses of the spear are often grossly exaggerated.  You can draw a spear back in your hand faster than a person with a sword can charge at you, and impale him with his own momentum if he's overcommitted.  It's so hard, in fact, that I think a realistic spear wall in this game would essentially be VASTLY overpowered if it had its flanks covered.  Just think about the ratio of kills:casualties shown by large, well trained spear formations historically.  The Greeks, Macedonians, various Hellenic cultures... And later, the Swiss, Germans, Spanish, Scots... These people essentially used large pointy sticks to skewer armies 3 times, 4 times their number, which were usually better equipped, better armored and better trained.  My example was a spear 9 feet in length, and a single inexperienced spearman against a more experience swordsman.  Imagine if there was a spear next to my spear, and one next to that, and another spearman behind me ready to present his spear, and one next to him, and... It's essentially nearly impossible to get by.  Then imagine if they were 21 feet long... Far more unwieldy, but even more spears could be leveled at the enemy at once by people maybe 2 or 3 men behind me.  Imagine how hard it would be to beat that.  That would just suck on so many levels, I'm sorry.  Especially since you can't knock the spears out of the way or something.  The spears dealing passive damage is a realistic, but probably bad idea.  Can't make a game too realistic if it makes the game unplayable...  "You lost your legs in battle!  Join a monastery?  Y/N"

 

[Heaven Knight]

maybe a spear bracing code for cavalry, like the Death of the Renascence, both damage to the rider and horse, but none for infantry, making the cavalry useless in a frontal charge with the phalanxes but deadly if used with a skirmisher support with backcharge...It's up to you but still it gives me a feeling of overpower

 

[maverick47]

Here there are many suggestions, but i think that the best one is that while your spearmen army is standing and cavalry come and try to charge on it, they will get a couched lance damage. Also the fact of being defending yourself with a shield and having the spear on the other side is a pretty good idea.
Like the formations in 300.
I know the thread is an idea for spears but this is just a question, will be there a turtle formation for roman legionaries?

 

[SwissHalberdier]

Here there are many suggestions, but i think that the best one is that while your spearmen army is standing and cavalry come and try to charge on it, they will get a couched lance damage. Also the fact of being defending yourself with a shield and having the spear on the other side is a pretty good idea.
Like the formations in 300.
I know the thread is an idea for spears but this is just a question, will be there a turtle formation for roman legionaries?

Wrong time period.

 

[we4kf00l]

I've got a funny story to that effect, OP.  Spears as passive weapons I mean.  One day, during the summer, nobody else showed up for my martial arts class but me and one of my juniors.  This is actually pretty common for summers, because most of our guys are university students.  Anyway, we're talking and he mentions that he has a particular interest in spears.  He says, however, that "spears are great but they're worthless if you get past the tip..." So, I laughed at him and told him to fetch us a practice sword and spear.  He comes back, we stand at about a couple meters distance, and I say "alright, try that."  Now, I'm not too good at spearmanship, but he tried to knock away the tip of my spear, and I neatly maneuvered the tip past the incoming blade and ended right in his face.  He couldn't get around the tip, and after 5 minutes or so of him trying numerous increasingly stupid maneuvers, he gave up.

The moral of the story is that the inherent weaknesses of the spear are often grossly exaggerated.  You can draw a spear back in your hand faster than a person with a sword can charge at you, and impale him with his own momentum if he's overcommitted.  It's so hard, in fact, that I think a realistic spear wall in this game would essentially be VASTLY overpowered if it had its flanks covered.  Just think about the ratio of kills:casualties shown by large, well trained spear formations historically.  The Greeks, Macedonians, various Hellenic cultures... And later, the Swiss, Germans, Spanish, Scots... These people essentially used large pointy sticks to skewer armies 3 times, 4 times their number, which were usually better equipped, better armored and better trained.  My example was a spear 9 feet in length, and a single inexperienced spearman against a more experience swordsman.  Imagine if there was a spear next to my spear, and one next to that, and another spearman behind me ready to present his spear, and one next to him, and... It's essentially nearly impossible to get by.  Then imagine if they were 21 feet long... Far more unwieldy, but even more spears could be leveled at the enemy at once by people maybe 2 or 3 men behind me.  Imagine how hard it would be to beat that.  That would just suck on so many levels, I'm sorry.  Especially since you can't knock the spears out of the way or something.  The spears dealing passive damage is a realistic, but probably bad idea.  Can't make a game too realistic if it makes the game unplayable...  "You lost your legs in battle!  Join a monastery?  Y/N"

Did the swordsman have a shied ?
And I think at the moment (in native at least, can not judge the mod) the spear does not offer a realistic battle. The spear should be vulnrable for archers or shielded men. Romans could break them. And they are of course vulnrable when moving. Plus the fact that attacking with them (let alone sieging) is terrably hard. I do not think therefore it would inbalance the game. The spear is not one of the most used weapons in history for nothing.

 

[SwissHalberdier]

A shield?  Not that time, but I have some friends who are into Western martial arts and a brother-in-law who's into kung fu, so I do have some funny stories about that as well.  I found it much easier to deal with a swordsman with a shield while I was wielding a spear than if I was similarly armed as the other fellow.  I found that they fared better if the shield was the sort with a boss that is wielded in the hand rather than strapped to the arm, as well.  I found that if I timed it properly, I could either take out the sword arm or thrust under the right armpit, or get past the shield and into the shield arm with some effort.  The timing was different but it wasn't anything I couldn't get around.  Granted, it was just a couple friends screwing around, and I am classically trained... but I found the results of that experiment useful for my purposes.

 

[maverick47]

Here there are many suggestions, but i think that the best one is that while your spearmen army is standing and cavalry come and try to charge on it, they will get a couched lance damage. Also the fact of being defending yourself with a shield and having the spear on the other side is a pretty good idea.
Like the formations in 300.
I know the thread is an idea for spears but this is just a question, will be there a turtle formation for roman legionaries?

Wrong time period.

What's in a wrong time period, the idea of spears or the turtle formation? i think that people should explain a bit more... 

 

[SwissHalberdier]

Here there are many suggestions, but i think that the best one is that while your spearmen army is standing and cavalry come and try to charge on it, they will get a couched lance damage. Also the fact of being defending yourself with a shield and having the spear on the other side is a pretty good idea.
Like the formations in 300.
I know the thread is an idea for spears but this is just a question, will be there a turtle formation for roman legionaries?

Wrong time period.

What's in a wrong time period, the idea of spears or the turtle formation? i think that people should explain a bit more... 

I italicized the relevant part.

 

[Tercero]

turtle informaton was after the marian reform, isnt it right?

edit: epic fail XD

 

[maverick47]

Here there are many suggestions, but i think that the best one is that while your spearmen army is standing and cavalry come and try to charge on it, they will get a couched lance damage. Also the fact of being defending yourself with a shield and having the spear on the other side is a pretty good idea.
Like the formations in 300.
I know the thread is an idea for spears but this is just a question, will be there a turtle formation for roman legionaries?

Wrong time period.

What's in a wrong time period, the idea of spears or the turtle formation? i think that people should explain a bit more... 

I italicized the relevant part.

dammit i got owned 

 

[martijntjeeh]

Well, atleast you didn't revive the thread 2 weeks after you got owned 

 

[Outlawed]

I think the more realistic suggestion would be to make a stance, or a block animation, other than block, and attack for spears. In this, you would simply hold your spear infront. This is useful for cavalry charges, when momentum is high, but for a soldier running towards you, it wouldn't do damage at all. Similar to what happens when you try and hit someone with a spear when they are too close.
Its almost too easy to charge spear men now. All you have to do is approach in a curved line and thats it. Crouched lance, good game.

 

[SwissHalberdier]

Ealabor took couched lances out of the game.