American conservatives are by and large complete and utter morons.
Here's a conversation I had with one of 'em on facebook (I'm Submitter S):
Commenter: we have the right ot life liberty and the pursuit of happiness... TAKE A LOOK AT THE FIRST 1... LIFE... IF HEALTHCARE IS PASSED. IT IS A STEP TOWARDS WHAT HAPPENS IN ENGLAND WHERE A FEW PEOPLE CHOOSE WHO LIVES AND WHO DIES BASED ON WHO IS GOING TO COST LESS!
Commenter’s friend: www://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frivolous_litigation You're right. Socialized Health Care for all is not the correct answer, because it can still never care for everyone and/or every health care need. I believe that our current capitalistic system in America is one of the best for a NATION even with the ugly knocks it takes. The biggest problems with any Health Care System though may be Frivolous Lawsuits and greed... the love of money being the root of all evil from individuals, Insurance Companies, Hospitals, Governments, etc. Think of how inexpensive and more affordable health insurance and health care might be for each individual if not for greedy frivolous lawsuits!
C: exactly...
S: You aren't going to get rid of greed by preventing socialized healthcare. And no single system would be able to care for everyone. Death panels are a myth, unless you're talking about insurance companies preventing cancer patients from seeking treatment.
Those are hardly reasons to be against socialized healthcare. And the proposed system is hardly 'socialist' at all. Socialized healthcare is just a pejorative term people are throwing around nowadays, but it really has nothing to do with the actual system itself.
With such a generalized misnomer, it would be correct to call our highway system socialized, or our towns socialized. Oh no, even our public schools are socialized! Oh crap, our government is socialized!
"Socialized healthcare" is thrown around like a dirty word nowadays. It's incredibly stupid.
S: Besides, there's a reason it's called a public option: because its optional. The government won't be forcing you to get rid of your healthcare, or forcing you to do anything at all. Obama & friends want to make it an option to put money into a public, government pool.
If you don't like that system because it involves the government, then, well, I guess you better start a group up in the mountains, because whether you like it or not, government is an innate part of what we are as a civilization.
And if you actually want a different system, I think the one in the Netherlands is a good option: there isn't a specifically government run system. However, the government does impose certain rules onto insurance companies so that the insured get their moneys worth with flat rates for all, while still allowing different companies to compete for profit.
S: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_Netherlands
C: Death panels... this is where its all headed... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6127514/Sentenced-to-death-on-the-NHS.html
i refuse to even look at ur links considering that they are wikipedia... which can be terribly unreliable...
i believe we need a government... but it should be as small as possible... and yes much of our government is socialized... welfare is a socialist program... and corporate america is heading quickly into socialism with the bank of america and government motors... although i really do not see how our towns/schools/roads could be called socialized...
C: as for your talk about the government option... it starts as a government option... look at Obama and friends quotes of the past... that is the first step towards a single payer system... look at the evidence man... stop drinking the koolaid... if you want gov healthcare move to canada or the uk... where th systems are increasingly falling apart and people are on waiting lists to even see doctors due to the implementation of this government healthcare...
one thing i neglected to mention... in switzerland, they have the least government control of almost any nation, and their economy is steady and their healthcare system is great.. the gov needs to jus get the hell out of the way and let the free market run itself... because it WILL fix itself... competition is good for everyone involved... including the consumer...
as for gettin rid of greed by stopping socialized healthcare... i never said stopping the healthcare bill would get rid of greed...
C: what the gov needs to do, is take of the state line restrictions it has on health insurance companies so that people in every state can search for the best price on healthcare... that will force the companies who charge too much to lower their prices or go bankrupt... thats not to say that a gov option is totally out of the question... but i sure as hell don't trust this congress to pass something with a gov option when many of them have said that it is only the first step in moving to a SINGLE payer system... which is the absolute worst thing that could happen...
But "Who is John Galt?"
CF: Housing industry, Car companies, Insurance Companies, etc. Basically, if it's making a big profit, or more importantly, if it could, the government wants control of it. The Federal Reserve System (Private Central Bank) which has more power than ever now, and has had Obama reinstate Ben Bernanke back as chairman, has not just given stimulus money in bailout fashion... Oh no! They bought stock in Fannie May & Freddie Mac, and Car & Insurance companies. So, they gamble away our tax dollars. They are also monetizing our debt buy printing more money not backed by anything. We aren't out of this recession. They have just created a bigger bubble. Get ready for inflation and bigger government coming soon. H.R. 1207 needs to pass. All other issues are important, but I feel like this is the big one.
S: [Commenter], my comments were directed at [Commenter’s Friend]. And the wikipedia link is to just give you an idea. Google Netherlands health care if you want information from a different site.
And yeah, Switzerland is one of the most capitalist nations in the world, but they're also a very small nation (size of Vermont/ New Hampshire combined) with many less people than the US (one half of one percent of our 330 million). Because of their size, it makes managing everything a lot easier. We can't just tale their system and superimpose it onto ours. It just wouldn't work because we're so much larger, with much more diversity. Logistics completely change just because of our size.
And no I don't drink the coolaid. In fact, people that put tons of faith in Obama blindly bug the hell out of me. I'm just saying that what Obama is proposing is a uniquely American system- you won't find it in Finland, Canada, or the UK.
And yeah, HR 1207 needs to pass. The amount of spending this country wastes is ridiculous.
S: Single pay is essentially medicare for all. It would kill most insurance companies. And the current plan would be $1.67/day/American, $400ish a year and provide healthcare for all.
Besides, yes, Switzerland is hugely capitalist, but their government doesn't allow Insurance companies to be for-profit (on basic plans). They only make money off of non-crucial, supplemental care.
The Swiss government also imposes plenty of restrictions- companies cant deny care based on poor health. And the government requires that all people buy into some sort of healthcare. If you opt out of healthcare completely, you have to pay a fee.
Regardless of whether you agree or not, there's something seriously wrong with our system here. We pay tons, get very little, and something like 1/4 of all Americans have no coverage.
C: ok... first... our system here is one of the best in the world... second... the size doesn't matter... china has made great movements in the direction of capitalism and they are quickly catching up to the swiss... third... how in the hell could 400 dollars a year provide healthcare for all 330 million americans? fact is that they have to raise other taxes an they say it will be on big companies, but in truth it ill trickle down to you... the consumer... that is simple economics...
C: How about this stimulus plan... fire all the czars(Cut Taxes)... downsize the government (Also cuts taxes)... get rid of all the pork projects in the stimulus bill... use that money to build a border fence(Provide jobs)... get rid of all the illegals(also provide jobs)... then see what that does for the average American.... that will lower taxes, provide many jobs, granted the average american thinks hes too good to do many of the jobs illegals are stealing, but that is changing as unemployment is at a 26 year high... along with the money saved on taxes, and the money earned from having a job healthcare will be affordable...
S: Our healthcare system blows. We have the most uninsured of developed countries, the cost per capita is terrible, and the quality of healthcare is pathetic. If you rank countries by quality of healthcare vs. cost, we rank very near the bottom.
I'd like to argue with you more, but the bulk of your argument is speculation with little fact to back it up, and you can't read very well. Notice how I said "1.67" per every american. That implies, in the next sentence, that $400 per year means per american as well.
And Trickle-down is a joke. They called it the "horse and sparrow" theory in 1890, and concluded it was antithetical to democracy:
"There are those who believe that, if you will only legislate to make the well-to-do prosperous, their prosperity will leak through on those below. The Democratic idea, however, has been that if you legislate to make the masses prosperous, their prosperity will find its way up through every class which rests up on them."
If we get rid of illegals, you're going to piss off a ton of businesses. If you really believe in trickle-down, you wouldn't want to kill the businesses that thrive off of the cheap labor that illegal immigrants provide. But that's just all speculation, something you're well familiar with.
