Ambush Mechanic

[Pelicanmeat]

So, there was a post not long ago that Callum commented on, stating that the ambush mechanic in the game had been sidelined (or maybe even scrapped).

So, I decided to post this thread to both petition the devs to attempt to include ambushes (I mean, come on), and to gather more information about why the devs decided to scrap it.

I imagine it has to be a practicality of the game’s design: how does one initiate an ambush? What does that mean in a battle instance? How does one craft the experience of the PC party being ambushed? Etc.

So, if you want an ambush mechanic and have ideas to create one (or reasons why it couldn’t be included) sound off below.

 

[stevepine]

Agreed. Plus one. Would be brilliant.

 

[stevehoos]

Agreed.

 

[JayWalker]

I would think for ambushes to work you would have to take an ambush stance, and depending on the size and makeup of your party, the terrain, and your skills approaching enemies would have a chance to spot you based on their own tracking/spotting skills. Likely you would not be able to move while in ambush stance.

As for the advantage of an ambush I think it would be to allow you to place your units on the battlefield in an advantageous position while the enemy troops are required to start in a line formation. From there the battle would go as normal. I would suggest that one reason for ambushes to be scrapped is that they create situations that are extremely unfair against the player if they are ambushed by a larger force.

When I play Warband for most of my play through I try to have the fastest force possible on the map of my size or larger. This allows me to always pick my engagements. I imagine many players do the same thing. Enemy ambushes can wreck this play style and put players in very unfair battle situations that they were forced into because of a lost die roll. If implemented well this could still be fun, but Warband was an inherently "fair" game, and I think the developers would want to find a way to overcome the hurdle of ambushes against the player feeling very unfair before they implemented them. For instance creating some way players could reliably spot or avoid ambushes without taking all of the purpose out of them and without forcing the player to build their skills in a certain way just to have a fair game.

That is just my 2 cents though. I would love to set up ambushes in the game.

 

[Pelicanmeat]

I would think for ambushes to work you would have to take an ambush stance, and depending on the size and makeup of your party, the terrain, and your skills approaching enemies would have a chance to spot you based on their own tracking/spotting skills. Likely you would not be able to move while in ambush stance.

As for the advantage of an ambush I think it would be to allow you to place your units on the battlefield in an advantageous position while the enemy troops are required to start in a line formation. From there the battle would go as normal. I would suggest that one reason for ambushes to be scrapped is that they create situations that are extremely unfair against the player if they are ambushed by a larger force.

When I play Warband for most of my play through I try to have the fastest force possible on the map of my size or larger. This allows me to always pick my engagements. I imagine many players do the same thing. Enemy ambushes can wreck this play style and put players in very unfair battle situations that they were forced into because of a lost die roll. If implemented well this could still be fun, but Warband was an inherently "fair" game, and I think the developers would want to find a way to overcome the hurdle of ambushes against the player feeling very unfair before they implemented them. For instance creating some way players could reliably spot or avoid ambushes without taking all of the purpose out of them and without forcing the player to build their skills in a certain way just to have a fair game.

That is just my 2 cents though. I would love to set up ambushes in the game.

I’m not so concerned with “fairness” to players. If the AI suffers the same situations as the player, that’s all that I really ask for.

And I think playstyles will adapt with new mechanics, and there would have to be a counter to ambushes (there’s a scouting skill, so I imagine having talented scouts will help).

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

I would think you would need higher pathfinding and spotting then the enemy and then you could choose to fallow them and ambush them when they stop, giving you some new deployment choices or such. Of course that's from a warband POV, but I would expect it has to work in way that makes sense with the lords ability to see units on the map.

 

[Pelicanmeat]

I would think you would need higher pathfinding and spotting then the enemy and then you could choose to fallow them and ambush them when they stop, giving you some new deployment choices or such. Of course that's from a warband POV, but I would expect it has to work in way that makes sense with the lords ability to see units on the map.

That’s about how I thought ambush would work, too.

I also wonder what skill perks will replace the ones that at one point helped initiate and avoid ambushes (there were two, if I recall).

 

[Heinyken]

+1 to the suggestion and to each thoughtful contribution so far.

 

[Pejot]

First of all game lacks specific path routes on the map so laying an bush might end in waiting forever. There is a lot of mountains but no passages based on them. Particularly this also makes a problem of kingdom wars where NPC have so many different ways to go to target that it is impossible for one faction to stop another before it reaches city or castle. All battles between armies are purely luck based and no terrain or strongholds taken into consideration. This also makes no point in having castles on the map since they are just points of village control instead of special defence position.

 

[Skatan]

I’m not so concerned with “fairness” to players. If the AI suffers the same situations as the player, that’s all that I really ask for.

And I think playstyles will adapt with new mechanics, and there would have to be a counter to ambushes (there’s a scouting skill, so I imagine having talented scouts will help).

Agree. Another option would be to enable a toggle that let's you move slower on the campaign map but adds to scouting to avoid being ambushed by a throng of forest bandits if your scouting is low. When you add a companion with high scout you can remove the toggle and move at normal speed and be quite sure your scout will find and spot any ambush in time (with a chance to fail implemented ofc so things won't get stale). Everytime you spot an ambush before it happens, the scout (an assigned companion or yourself if you haven't one) should recieve XP in scouting and you can move another way around it to avoid it. Would perhaps create an interesting mechanic on the battlemap where you can run your pure horse army straight into the woods without the risk of ending up in a very disadvantagous situation of being surrounded by Battanian Fians and having your horses in a very hard to control situation. And it would also be cool to use the level 75 strategy perk to be able to place your units on the battlefield before the battle if you were the one doing the ambush.

 

[Jerabrok]

I would love ambush mechanics to be put in; however, knowing the ethos of M&B being that both you and the NPC lords are capable of all the same things, I imagine the main barrier to its implementation isn't how a player would initiate it, but how NPC lords would use it and how you'd be affected by / respond to it.

Knowing that at any moment when moving in a valley you could be pounced upon would be pretty nerve racking and likely frustrating too if you've just dumped half your units in a garrison.

I bet the roguery and scouting trees would need redesigning to accommodate too.

Basically there's lots of balancing issues hidden in this mechanic.

 

[jaksebar]

Ambush would be awesome

 

[JurgenJuggernaut]

+1 Yes I agree would be nice to have them. BUT at the same time is something that is too complicated to implement that it would require a lot of things, for example fog of war inside battlefields, roads (that many of us have been asking for), army stances in world map, checks for tracking and spotting, different map start at combat, also the thing that I believe is one of the greatest factor of making this unviable is not other thing that laying in waiting for your target and your target could not pass by that road as the world map is big, also could be exploited by the ai or by bandits that are aldready a pain in the ass. At the current stage other things are more needed than this, cuz is way to complicated.

Dont get me wrong, I would like to have it, could be usefull for many things, from taking down that fast caravans to assault and enemy lord. If implemented it would be nice if assaulted troops suffer a debuff for being shocked or suprised.

 

[Flavius Belisarius]

Something like this, please.