Ambush And Camp Mechanic ( with demo )

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NPC99

Baron
M&BWBWF&SVC
That's actually the forest bandit hideout icon. Your ambush takes icon of the terrain you are sitting on ( desert bandit hideout mapicon for desert etc )
My mistake, I thought you were using one of these on the campaign map:
PFHj7.jpg

I should have looked closer. :oops:
I created a really sloppy implementation of "ambush while marching" logic. Not exactly a sweet on transit like you want @Terco_Viejo but does the trick if you wait awhile to see enemy forms the marching order.
Looks great.
While implementing I realized that they left some code pieces for the previous ambush as well. Literally something called AmbushMissionController or something obviously similar.
It appears to be that they designed that one in a very static manner. It's heavily relying on the scene. But they have some interesting stuff, like ambushers are on the high-ground and throwing boulders ( or rolling boulders not clear ) to passing army. I think it's a static scene like bandit hideouts, where you can take only a portion of your units. And based on what they said in blogs ages ago, I think they had a design where chokeholds/ambush places are already preset in the campaign map which you could go and lay out and ambush.
A hideout style scene with half a dozen troops would have been awful. I much prefer your full or strung out party ambushes.

I'm 99% sure that TW will choose to ignore this idea.
I'd be interested to know, if your ambush mechanic and a potential extension of it to ai vs ai impacts campaign map performance. Given it's clearly fun, the only other reasonable objection would be re optimisation given Bannerlord's very low minimum pc spec and impending console port.
 
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Spinozart1

Squire
The second approach is definitely better.(y)
Great tactical potential, especially combined with the new battle terrain and order of battle systems.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
@Bloc , I have nothing but applause for your dedication and the evident love you have for M&B.

That last video test with that new logic is wonderful... as others have already commented, imagine those marching column formations (at least here that agent formation behaviour would have some useful use :roll: ) + the PBOD and my mouth is watering.

giphy.gif


I think it would be fantastic to see implemented all those options (both for the player and for the ai) of ambush while marching + ambush in camp + possibility to camp (with the options you mentioned).

Thank you for bringing this very useful and interesting thread in these times where these are not usually abundant; good work once again.
 

Nodice83

Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
@Bloc , I have nothing but applause for your dedication and the evident love you have for M&B.

That last video test with that new logic is wonderful... as others have already commented, imagine those marching column formations (at least here that agent formation behaviour would have some useful use :roll: ) + the PBOD and my mouth is watering.

giphy.gif


I think it would be fantastic to see implemented all those options (both for the player and for the ai) of ambush while marching + ambush in camp + possibility to camp (with the options you mentioned).

Thank you for bringing this very useful and interesting thread in these times where these are not usually abundant; good work once again.
These little tasty bites are what makes M&B fun game. I totally agree With Terco_Viejo. It is so promising. I can only imagine being surprised at the middle of an ambush and have second to react not to flawlessly win but to survive. I wish i can feel it... in this game.

It baffles me why nobody from TW has even commented on that. Especially when you say it isn't hard to implement. It is like the next huge feature ready on the plate. Really no words can desceibe this...
 

Spinozart1

Squire
@Bloc , I have nothing but applause for your dedication and the evident love you have for M&B.

That last video test with that new logic is wonderful... as others have already commented, imagine those marching column formations (at least here that agent formation behaviour would have some useful use :roll: ) + the PBOD and my mouth is watering.

giphy.gif


I think it would be fantastic to see implemented all those options (both for the player and for the ai) of ambush while marching + ambush in camp + possibility to camp (with the options you mentioned).

Thank you for bringing this very useful and interesting thread in these times where these are not usually abundant; good work once again.
+1 (except I don't understand the meaning of PBOD...:?:)
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
These little tasty bites are what makes M&B fun game. I totally agree With Terco_Viejo. It is so promising. I can only imagine being surprised at the middle of an ambush and have second to react not to flawlessly win but to survive. I wish i can feel it... in this game.

It baffles me why nobody from TW has even commented on that. Especially when you say it isn't hard to implement. It is like the next huge feature ready on the plate. Really no words can desceibe this...

What baffles me is how out of touch Taleworlds is in reference to mechanics/additions/essentials for the vast majority of players.

+1 (except I don't understand the meaning of PBOD...:?:)
Pre-Battle Orders & Deployment
The "new" order of battle system takes the PBOD as a reference...
 

Bloc

Archduke
WB
as others have already commented, imagine those marching column formations
Well now I have something for you and @Piconi - I fixed a bunch of stuff about formations and marching today in my free time.
I'm dropping two videos for you. I'm also explaining both. One of the bigger battles while the other one is small-ambush.

This is another trial for the on-transit ambush. I fixed a bunch of column order and decisions making things. Now each cavalry chaperoning certain units, in big armies looks better because it gives a feeling of chaos caused by marching and order enforced by sergeants.
This is another trial for the on-transit ambush. I fixed a bunch of column order and decisions making things. Extreme FPS drop is happening because I overestimated my GPU power and added too many troops and used torch/banner mod. I also noticed that while soldiers are outside of the boundary, pathfinding is sucking CPU( you will realize that FPS drop is more tolerable after a few seconds when soldiers march into the scene)
I attacked this party by knowing that I was going to get crashed. So don't say anything about that :razz:



My mistake, I thought you were using one of these on the campaign map:
I didn't know they existed actually, I don't have Modding Tools installed. But I tried it today and apparently they are not created as prefab but only mesh which is causing problems. They are from old_icons where everything was designed in Warband-way ( icon per type )
I'd be interested to know, if your ambush mechanic and a potential extension of it to ai vs ai impacts campaign map performance. Given it's clearly fun, the only other reasonable objection would be re optimisation given Bannerlord's very low minimum pc spec and impending console port.
Both battle and campaign-wise, there is no performance impact. Basically for AI vs AI case, they will lay out their ambush and stay hidden, and while they are ambushing, other parties won't see them ( like how it's happening for player at the moment ) and they will attack to close-by parties, rest is normal AI vs AI battle mechanic ( although simulation will favor the ambusher )

I will be blunt, I think the only reason to call this feature "not fun" should be for covering up laziness. It's fun, it's a different mechanic to already existing features, it's not groundbreaking(although I'm sure people would drop their pants if TW was doing it because people even tears fell down for small features) but it's a new playstyle for players, it's a win for everyone, But all these will need time to implement and they simply don't want to do that, because, well, they are lazy or/and because already working in tortoise pace.
I mean, I'm doing same stuff with 0 know-how from actual developers yet I'm able to demo something. TW have more resources on their hand, example: developer who will develop this stuff will know whom to ask how spawning works but in my case I have to go through un-optimized poorly written architecture to see it. I also don't know if they already wrote helper functions for things that I do. TW dev would know that and save quite a lot of time from his/her development time.
 

Piconi

Fashionista
Section Moderator
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Well now, now it is simply mouth-watering !
I actually like the idea and even the ominous look of them coming into the scene from outside borders, but as navmesh stops there it's causing the performance issues.

I really think that is the best use of the whole scene for the ambush, them coming from the outside (especially when ambushing bigger armies), but i'm not sure how the performance issue can be bypassed while keeping that setup, that doesen't include editing every scene by hand by expanding navmesh.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
Each video gets better and better; bravo Bloc!.

giphy.gif


A couple of observations and a concern:

I like the volume of that column, however would a complex group logic be possible? I mean, several rectangular/square formations of agents distributed by troop types in a row and doing the nokia snake. For example: cavalry>>>>infantry>>>>ranged>>>>infantry>>>>cavalry.

I also wonder if there is any possibility to reduce "view range" while the target formation is advancing before the attacking position is compromised for the first time. We know that Taleworlds removed the variables that conditioned projectile shooting range to light/weather dependent vision (source). How would this be the case if the player was the ambushed?

The concern I have with these videos is how from the player's point of view native (no RTS camera) could this mechanic be implemented, I mean after deployement phase.
 
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Bloc

Archduke
WB
I actually like the idea and even the ominous look of them coming into the scene from outside borders, but as navmesh stops there it's causing the performance issues.
I think this can be fixed on their end easily. But normally it's not as drastic as it looks in the video. The reason why in the video it's dropping fps like crazy is that, there are particle effects for many soldiers because of the torches, and also physic simulations because of banners + my pc isn't a good benchmark to test 400 soldiers on high settings with fairly HD resolution while recording.

Each video gets better and better; bravo Bloc!.
Probably will be the last video since I made my point clear for everyone and TW. Rest is up to TW to decide whether they implement it or not. I can even provide the code if they want, it's sketchy but essentially it's just two mission controllers for each ( camp and transit ) which they can use.

I like the volume of that column, however would a group logic be possible? I mean, several rectangular/square formations of agents distributed by troop types in a row and doing the nokia snake. For example: cavalry>>>>infantry>>>>ranged>>>>infantry>>>>cavalry.
That logic would create issues. Because cavalry is always faster than infantry and when I assign them to move position X, they are rushing to that location which is very weird and there is no clear way to cool their speed off as far as I can see ( because Agent class-wise mount and rider are different entities ) But instead I assigned a cavalry to X amount of foot soldiers so that they can be under control of sergeant + enemy not being on formation grants some chance for player to attack.
I also wonder if there is any possibility to reduce "view range" while the target formation is advancing before the attacking position is compromised for the first time. We know that Taleworlds removed the variables that conditioned projectile shooting range to light/weather dependent vision (source). How would this be the case if the player was the ambushed?
It's possible yes. I randomly set it to some value in the beginning and this gets reduced based on - if soldier on horseback ( better vision ) , if attacker party is sneaking/crouching, if sun is set. But if they suddenly get attacked by arrows, then that particular section starts the relay of "message" so that after a certain while everyone gets alerted.
The concern I have with these videos is how from the player's point of view native (no RTS camera) could this mechanic be implemented, I mean after deployement phase?
After the deployment phase, it's just the same as how you would lead the battle. I'm showing it without a horse to make it immersive but the player can bring a horse to ambush, along with his horseman. So that part is still there. I think in my first video I wasn't using RTS but only normal camera view. It's still possible to position your units. RTS gives more advantage ofc.
 

Piconi

Fashionista
Section Moderator
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Very much deserved, and one of the few things i can do to further this cause, adding it to the Top Suggestions list and this to your OP
(the image is clickable)
 

XDaron

Sergeant Knight
it seems to work well with the way the sandbox plays out, and ultimately, it looks fun for the player
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
Great explanation and content.
In my humble opinion, this is fun for the player. Thanks once again for instructing us Bloc.
Once again, the ball is in Taleworlds' court... 😌🎻
 

NPC99

Baron
M&BWBWF&SVC
Both battle and campaign-wise, there is no performance impact.
Magic. :grin:
I will be blunt, I think the only reason to call this feature "not fun" should be for covering up laziness.
This feature is fun. However, if TW implemented their version like hideout raids that wouldn't be fun. I doubt it's laziness, but IDK why TW failed to persevere with ambushes. A mistake by TW, which your demo and suggestion gives them the opportunity to redeem.
 

Spinozart1

Squire
Awesome!
I was just thinking about some additional gameplay options this kind of ambush system would allow:
  • Caravan ambush
  • Suicidal attack to reduce enemy army numbers
  • Lords kidnapping
  • Scout mission
  • Rescue mission
Really great potential!
 

Bloc

Archduke
WB
Very much deserved, and one of the few things i can do to further this cause, adding it to the Top Suggestions list and this to your OP
I hope it gets some love now. I seriously don't know how I can prove that it can be fun and nice mechanic better than this
I doubt it's laziness, but IDK why TW failed to persevere with ambushes.
I think you are being too forgiving about this.
How TW decided to implement ambushes is already a "simplification" because the overall idea of being able to ambush/ambushed is out there, suggested by players for a long time ago, so it's known. Also Total War implemented it ages ago and working fine. So someone suggested this to TW, and TW said "Oh okay, this can be tricky, you know what, let's make it less complicated, we already have hideouts, lets use same logic" and then they failed to make it fun or failed to make it work at all and simply abandoned the idea. Well this, unfortunately, is laziness. Especially now no one ever mentions ambushes, it gives me the feeling that they completely removed this feature from their plans.

One thing I can congratulate TW on is "behavior" logic. These behaviors ( whether it's mission or campaign behaviors) grant great flexibility to whoever is writing the code. As you can see, I created a total of 3 behaviors, one for the campaign to check states and logic on ambushes, 2, one for camp ambush and one for on transit ambush. Anyone in TW can do the same, even use the same code that I wrote easily. They are plug-in-play type of code. And a single guy can do that. Literally, task a single person in TW and he/she can write the same stuff ( and in a better way since she/he will have more resources ). Why they are not doing? I don't know. What are they doing if not this? I also don't know. It looks like only a handful of people are actually working on TW to be honest.

One might say "Hey bloc you did this demo but it's not finished, TW needs a lot of testing" and I would say "Show me one feature that they added and worked perfectly that they didn't patched later on". You can't show such an example, it doesn't exist. And this is fine. It's exactly why we have EA. They have to add ideas, try it out, fix it, shape it until it's bug-free. We all know they won't add ambushes or other mechanics into the game after EA is over.

I was just thinking about some additional gameplay options this kind of ambush system would allow:
And this is related to what I'm saying above. With behavior logic, it's very easy to create them. Each developer can create their own "behaviors" for these missions, and they can all be added into the game. Although I'm fine with just having normal ambush to be fair, I have doubts that even this will be implemented.
 
+1 Bloc. You are great man. I will say this, now that TW is doing the Battle Terrains for all areas of the map, maybe they can spend some time, after finishing them all, adding props to the scenes to make them ambush friendly, thus easily putting in the map-wise infrastructure and then adding the relevant code to make it happen.
 

Bloc

Archduke
WB
Battle Terrains
Actually, this is one of the few examples where handcrafted maps can work out better. Currently, I'm picking camp positions and "transit"positions procedurally since there are no "handmade" camp position indicators or path for armies to move. If they can add spawn positions for ambushers and defenders, along with camp/path positions , overall implementation would be x3 times easier. And it would feel better because now you would have more logical moving paths for armies and camps.
If you can see my last video, you would expect army to move in the open path where there are no mountains and/or no forests, but I'm simply drawing a direct line and it's leading them to go to forest path even though map isn't designed for direct paths but more curved path. If this was added in map making process, it would look way better.
 
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