Almost two months into EA. Satisfied?

[froggyluv]

https://www.reddit.com/r/GamingLeak.../rockstar_are_developing_openworld_game_with/ evidence of a rockstar foray into this area...any thing else

LOL- yeah ok you found a rumor ill give you that -but if you read the thread itself its all vapor.

Game studios can and do branch out into different kinds of game. After all a studio is just a collection of individuals who get swapped out constantly, and a coder isn't really going to care whether they're making a movement system for an FPS or for a Strategy game.
The reason studios tend to stick with one game genre is either because that's what they're known for, or (in smaller companies) the managers only like one type of game. However for companies not known for anything (like Hello Games before they made NMS), they will jump between all sorts of stuff just so they can pay the bills, and constantly rebrand themselves.
For instance Creative Assembly is only known for total war, but they made Alien: Isolation which is nothing like their other titles, as well as a handful of other auxiliary releases and outsourced ports. Back in the 90s they made sports games and shovelware. Creative Assembly could probably make a first person shooter if they wanted.

CD Projekt Red is also another example because their second most successful title so far is a mobile card game.

"After all a studio is just a collection of individuals who get swapped out constantly, and a coder isn't really going to care whether they're making a movement system for an FPS or for a Strategy game."

This is so false i dont even no where to begin. Trust me ive been pc gaming since 1982 and follow game design very closely. These arent just "coders" who will code anything like data monkeys -there are very specific sub-sets of coders. Ive even had correspondance with "coders" from AAA games like Battlefield who've told me the inner workings of how they operate, how confined the larger developing houses are stunting creativity which frustrates many of the "coders".

As for the rest of your statement - yes, some developers are successful with multiple branches outside of their signature series but it is very rare. The point of bigger, richer, more talented developer houses being able to essentially "jump in and boss another masterpiece type series" like a Mount and Blade is blatantly false. If you follow game development you'd know about how mighty Codemasters tried to Boss the Boss of Operation Flashpoint with bigger badder budgets and got utterly owned in the process. Its not easy to replicate or better a masterpiece.

There is a reason Swat 4 has not been beaten by superior tactical AI since 2005, that free open world with actual battles away from Player via Arma series, that physics based realistic medieval combat capable of over 1000 units fighting in real time via Warband/Bannerlord. These engines were built as specialty engines -and no they are not bested by Frostbite/CryEngine or Creation no matter how hard they try.

Edit: I used to say/believe the same thing btw while playing the original Operation Flashpoint vs Battlefield 2 "Man, if only DICE would make an Arma game its be SO MUCH BETTER!!!". Then i started messing around with the DICE AI editor and realized its all just smoke and mirrors -not a real developed AI at all. Theres much more here than meets the eye.

 

[froggyluv]

My dear friend I think you may lack a bit of understanding here. That type of combat was a choice for that game - that genre. That doesn't mean that CD Projeckt Red couldn't do it a different way, for a different game - in a different genre. They're a larger company with more resources who are better equipped to higher top tier talent than TaleWorlds. That Jimi Hendrix analogy is so wrong for this argument that I smiled when I saw it. But I'll leave it at that since @Kentucky James VII put it so eloquently.

Read post above -I lack no understanding of game development and have been coding probably before you were born. The old "oh they COULD do it if they WANTED to" excuse eh? Hehe. trust me, easier said than done. Dont care if you dont get the Hendrix analogy - the point is bigger/badder/budgets with tons of talented developers !== superior product especially outside their franchise signature niche in PC gaming.

 

[froggyluv]

I couldn't play The Witcher because of how recently I had played Mount and Blade prior to trying it, the combat was empty to me. Same with Skyrim, I eventually went back a few years later but the melee was always empty and unsatisfying to me. I get a visceral thrill from M&B combat

Understand completely. Im a combat guy in RL and only like games that give me a realistic type playground to mess around in. Pretty much why i only play Swat4/Arma and Mount & Blade series because you're dealing with realistic reactions and movements. No spinny jumping fireball somersaults or two handed weaponry nonsense. Having somewhat real reactions from the AI is equally important.

 

[Lesbosisles]

Well, the recent updates have given me some thoughts...

2 months in EA and there's no significant progress in the game except for performance (performance has really improved and its good).

But if we're talking about game mechanics or content - well, that's where the problems come around.

Concerning the game mechanics, it feels like the devs running in circles. Every time they release a huge patch, but changelogs consist of mostly nerfs and a few insufficient features (which can also didn't work or break something). The AI is still very stupid, there's no any improvements on that point, they still do stupid things like taking settlements at the other side of the map because of the low defenders number. In battle they scarcely use any tactics, they always send their cavalry to attack at the start of the battle, even if their "cavalry" consists of 1 poor khuzait raider. Diplomacy wasn't working well with all these random war declarations and 1-hour peace treaties, but when the 25 days of truce were implemented, the situation changed for better... just to be wiped out by a new system, which is underdeveloped and bugged (just like the most things in this game).

The content side... Well, you know. Infinite nerfs is the only content we get so far.

Feels like two months wasted for nothing, tbh. The only significant change that prevented snowballing and made the game process a little bit more enjoyable has been deleted to be replaced by something that doesn't work, so now it feels like I'm playing 1.0.0 version. Core mechanics are not working or work very bad (perks, aging, permadeath, diplomacy, AI, children, settlement management, etc). We lack simple features that were present in Warband like casus belli and truce time. Besides, two last patches were significantly delayed and 1.4.0 version was a huge dissapointment - everyone waited for a week just to have a few insignificant changes. Right now I feel that we'll get the same feeling when the new patch comes out.

At this point, I'm not even sure that the game will be finished in a year. The devs seem not to be able to fix core mechanics since when they fix one thing they usually break 10 other things at the same time. I shatter at thought of what may happen if they'll add some new features or content (like some new scenarios). How many bugs and broken things will come up then?

Of course, everything will be fixed and added eventually, but hell, two months of no signficant progress really bother me.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

This is so false i dont even no where to begin. Trust me ive been pc gaming since 1982 and follow game design very closely. These arent just "coders" who will code anything like data monkeys -there are very specific sub-sets of coders. Ive even had correspondance with "coders" from AAA games like Battlefield who've told me the inner workings of how they operate, how confined the larger developing houses are stunting creativity which frustrates many of the "coders".

I know, I'm not sure what this has to do with my post though.

As for the rest of your statement - yes, some developers are successful with multiple branches outside of their signature series but it is very rare. The point of bigger, richer, more talented developer houses being able to essentially "jump in and boss another masterpiece type series" like a Mount and Blade is blatantly false. If you follow game development you'd know about how mighty Codemasters tried to Boss the Boss of Operation Flashpoint with bigger badder budgets and got utterly owned in the process. Its not easy to replicate or better a masterpiece.

I know that throwing money at a game doesn't make it better, but that has very little to do with one studio or another being "better" at making one specific genre of game. I could understand if you were talking about certain game directors having more experience with a genre, but even then you have plenty of examples of game directors working on vastly different types of games. Just look at Kojima or Kamiya.

I mean we have the perfect example right here: Warband had good combat, Bannerlord's is a total mess. A lot of the great things about Warband's combat are absent in Bannerlord. They have the same game director, a lot of the same upper echelon staff, and more money than ever before, working on what is barely more than a remaster of Warband, yet it's worse.

 

[Roaring Mouse]

Understand completely. Im a combat guy in RL and only like games that give me a realistic type playground to mess around in. Pretty much why i only play Swat4/Arma and Mount & Blade series because you're dealing with realistic reactions and movements. No spinny jumping fireball somersaults or two handed weaponry nonsense. Having somewhat real reactions from the AI is equally important.

The only other game anywhere near as satisfying for me with melee has been the light saber combat in Jedi knight: Jedi Academy

 

[froggyluv]

I know, I'm not sure what this has to do with my post though.



I know that throwing money at a game doesn't make it better, but that has very little to do with one studio or another being "better" at making one specific genre of game. I could understand if you were talking about certain game directors having more experience with a genre, but even then you have plenty of examples of game directors working on vastly different types of games. Just look at Kojima or Kamiya.

I mean we have the perfect example right here: Warband had good combat, Bannerlord's is a total mess. A lot of the great things about Warband's combat are absent in Bannerlord. They have the same game director, a lot of the same upper echelon staff, and more money than ever before, working on what is barely more than a remaster of Warband, yet it's worse.

I really have no idea where you going with this but the point i was making is clear -the biggest 5 game developers right now however you want to rank them absolutely could not create a rival to either Warband/Bannerlord, an Arma 3 or even a Swat 4. I keep reading it over and over on these forums as if this was some easy feat and my experience and my post were highlighted to give an unequivocal "Nope". People have a very superficial understanding of what it takes to create a revolutionary type - one of a kind game - they are not easily nor rarely replicated. Trust me, if AAA could they would as there IS profit to be made there. They tend to pick the path of least resistance which is the known product.

The only other game anywhere near as satisfying for me with melee has been the light saber combat in Jedi knight: Jedi Academy

Heh - yes agreed also a skill based combat system. Good call.

 

[mfuegemann]

I was thrilled at the beginning with the new visuals and mechanics. It was disappointing then to realize that the perks and diplomacy did not work for the major part. Normal battles were great, but the scenes are so repeating themselfes.
I was especially looking forward to the new siege mechanics and options, but after several updates it still is shallow. It makes no sense to use the siege engines at all. Just build Your battering ram and the towers to distract enemy fire and then the siege is won. You can make the time pass by shooting arrows or accompanying the gate assault to fight the immovable soldiers waiting there. But there is no staged defense, no using of secondary defense lines or the keep or something else.
Here I do feel really mislead by the pre-release advertising of sieges and the video footage provided.

I am very sad about the current state. I had my 200 hours of gameplay to not be ashamed to have bought this product, but compared to M&B1 or Warband/Viking Conquest the game as it is now looks pretty, but it is shallow, unfinished and the Devs will still have a long way to go.

From my current experiences, I would wish the Devs fix some of the errors and then release the game code together with some modding tools to the community. I do not have much hope for a real finished release within the next 2 years otherwise.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

I really have no idea where you going with this but the point i was making is clear -the biggest 5 game developers right now however you want to rank them absolutely could not create a rival to either Warband/Bannerlord, an Arma 3 or even a Swat 4.

And my point is that they could make a game like this, the higher-ups choose not to. The modern AAA game is a carefully designed money printer that nobody in charge wants to veer from. Add that to a restrictive corporate bureaucracy run by boomer stockholders and you have a situation where all big budget games in a given year are basically the same.

If EA sent one of their teams to go and make a rival to bannerlord with no other caveats, it would almost certainly be a lot better than anything Taleworlds could make. The problem is that there are never "no other caveats" and a game of this type wouldn't churn out money the way the executives and shareholders want and expect.

It's the same with the film industry where most big budget films are unwatchable garbage, but it makes way more money than if they tried to make good films that were harder to market.

 

[froggyluv]

And my point is that they could make a game like this, the higher-ups choose not to. The modern AAA game is a carefully designed money printer that nobody in charge wants to veer from. Add that to a restrictive corporate bureaucracy run by boomer stockholders and you have a situation where all big budget games in a given year are basically the same.

If EA sent one of their teams to go and make a rival to bannerlord with no other caveats, it would almost certainly be a lot better than anything Taleworlds could make. The problem is that there are never "no other caveats" and a game of this type wouldn't churn out money the way the executives and shareholders want and expect.

It's the same with the film industry where most big budget films are unwatchable garbage, but it makes way more money than if they tried to make good films that were harder to market.

Your utterly wrong but this debate is tiresome. Its like saying - hey, the biggest Movie Producers COULD make the best quality films instead of Marvel but choose not too. No they cant. It takes a master to make a quality film -not a boardroom of money men. Look what happened to Game of Thrones once they removed the artist and let corporate take over -same thing happens in game design. the environment of AAA design simply does not lend itself to true gaming mechanic innovation. Period.

Your not understanding how the art of designing AI has been utterly lost for decades now -they literally dont know how to program a robust AI system today. But go on believing "they could if they wanted to ,choose not too" garbage...its just to tiresome to keep repeating myself

 

[mfuegemann]

And my point is that they could make a game like this, the higher-ups choose not to. The modern AAA game is a carefully designed money printer that nobody in charge wants to veer from. Add that to a restrictive corporate bureaucracy run by boomer stockholders and you have a situation where all big budget games in a given year are basically the same.

If EA sent one of their teams to go and make a rival to bannerlord with no other caveats, it would almost certainly be a lot better than anything Taleworlds could make. The problem is that there are never "no other caveats" and a game of this type wouldn't churn out money the way the executives and shareholders want and expect.

It's the same with the film industry where most big budget films are unwatchable garbage, but it makes way more money than if they tried to make good films that were harder to market.

Hi Kentucky James,
being not an AAA studio - despite calling for AAA prices nonetheless - should not be an excuse to deliver a program at its current state after 8 (eight) years of development.
I am a M&B player from the beginning, playing vanilla and mods, but I did expect more from this release, for sure.

Michael

 

[Patchouli Knowledge]

the biggest 5 game developers right now however you want to rank them absolutely could not create a rival to either Warband/Bannerlord, an Arma 3 or even a Swat 4.

They could easily, lol. You're talking straight out of your keister, buster.

 

[KingSling]

LOL- yeah ok you found a rumor ill give you that -but if you read the thread itself its all vapor.



"After all a studio is just a collection of individuals who get swapped out constantly, and a coder isn't really going to care whether they're making a movement system for an FPS or for a Strategy game."

This is so false i dont even no where to begin. Trust me ive been pc gaming since 1982 and follow game design very closely. These arent just "coders" who will code anything like data monkeys -there are very specific sub-sets of coders. Ive even had correspondance with "coders" from AAA games like Battlefield who've told me the inner workings of how they operate, how confined the larger developing houses are stunting creativity which frustrates many of the "coders".

As for the rest of your statement - yes, some developers are successful with multiple branches outside of their signature series but it is very rare. The point of bigger, richer, more talented developer houses being able to essentially "jump in and boss another masterpiece type series" like a Mount and Blade is blatantly false. If you follow game development you'd know about how mighty Codemasters tried to Boss the Boss of Operation Flashpoint with bigger badder budgets and got utterly owned in the process. Its not easy to replicate or better a masterpiece.

There is a reason Swat 4 has not been beaten by superior tactical AI since 2005, that free open world with actual battles away from Player via Arma series, that physics based realistic medieval combat capable of over 1000 units fighting in real time via Warband/Bannerlord. These engines were built as specialty engines -and no they are not bested by Frostbite/CryEngine or Creation no matter how hard they try.

Edit: I used to say/believe the same thing btw while playing the original Operation Flashpoint vs Battlefield 2 "Man, if only DICE would make an Arma game its be SO MUCH BETTER!!!". Then i started messing around with the DICE AI editor and realized its all just smoke and mirrors -not a real developed AI at all. Theres much more here than meets the eye.

It was just the first link on a simple google search, rumor has some validity if multiple links pop up. If Taleworlds is under the assumption that is safe just because they don't think another company will be interested then it is primed for failure. I would say that Kingdom Come Deliverance also proved to many that there was a market to be tapped here. That is also another possibility by the way, a kickstarter or a new indie company that sprouts up. Don't get it twisted I want Taleworlds to succeed here they are the OGs of this and should be rewarded for creating a much needed game concept, but it needs to produce a little better. If it was good enough you wouldn't see so many detractors.

 

[froggyluv]

They could easily, lol. You're talking straight out of your keister, buster.

Wrong. What do you know of game design? Take the Codemasters huge money machine as compared to Bohemia interactive debacle. Explain that to me? I was there for the whole thing - talking with the games chief designer at Codemasters who had huge plans to overthrow Operation Flashpoint -if you can understand what happned then -you will understand why the larger developers fail at these attempts.

 

[froggyluv]

It was just the first link on a simple google search, rumor has some validity if multiple links pop up. If Taleworlds is under the assumption that is safe just because they don't think another company will be interested then it is primed for failure. I would say that Kingdom Come Deliverance also proved to many that there was a market to be tapped here. That is also another possibility by the way, a kickstarter or a new indie company that sprouts up. Don't get it twisted I want Taleworlds to succeed here they are the OGs of this and should be rewarded for creating a much needed game concept, but it needs to produce a little better. If it was good enough you wouldn't see so many detractors.

Absolutely agree on Kingdom Come -that underlines my exact point. Its the small indie guys who create game innovation NOT AAA.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

Your not understanding how the art of designing AI has been utterly lost for decades now -they literally dont know how to program a robust AI system today

Okay you definitely have no bloody idea what you're talking about y'old bastard.

Wrong. What do you know of game design?

The guy you're replying to here is a professional game developer.

 

[froggyluv]

Okay you definitely have no bloody idea what you're talking about y'old bastard.

I do. I design AI myself -have been for the past 10 years. Matter fact youll be seeing a revolutionary AI mod for arma3 coming out withing next year.

 

[Patchouli Knowledge]

Wrong. What do you know of game design? Take the Codemasters huge money machine as compared to Bohemia interactive debacle. Explain that to me? I was there for the whole thing - talking with the games chief designer at Codemasters who had huge plans to overthrow Operation Flashpoint -if you can understand what happned then -you will understand why the larger developers fail at these attempts.

Well I've worked on such games as, uhh, Bannerlord for example. What games did you work on, bucko?

 

[froggyluv]

Well I've worked on such games as, uhh, Bannerlord for example. What games did you work on, bucko?

In what capacity? Your a hired game developer for Bannerlord? Like i said, im a modder for Arma and also for POP mod -the original going on 15 years.

 

[Patchouli Knowledge]

In what capacity? Your a hired game developer for Bannerlord?

I was for a period, yeah. Not a lowly modder.