after the weirdest siege ever, a conclusion

Users who are viewing this thread

_Cooper_ said:
Well, you did fight fire with fire in that siege.

I was extremely outnumbered, and it was only my ally who used elvarie troops (I'm the one with Red icon). I could have done the same if they were all perisno archers I believe. At that close range, even bad archers become deadly :smile:
 
Agreed. Honestly though, as an Elvarie player, you can just use certain tactics to beat elvarie, in field or siege battles. Every army has a weakness :razz:
 
_Cooper_ said:
How badly would you want them nerfed? Do you want them destroyed or still competent? With a faction like Elvaire, completely archers, there is so much you can do. If an enemy isnt a strong shield faction, they are going to take casualties. I do agree the melee is MUCH to powerful for archers, lowering HP,PS and Weapon points i can agree with, as long as you dont touch their archery.
_Cooper_ said:
Agreed. Honestly though, as an Elvarie player, you can just use certain tactics to beat elvarie, in field or siege battles. Every army has a weakness :razz:

Double quote for the sake of making a point: it is obvious u won't want elvarine not even a bit nerfed because u play as elvarine, alas, whenever u change faction cuz u've got bored of it, u'll be the first whining about their OPness! Call me crystal ball...

Anyway, I don't support a nerf at their ranged skills, I support a nerf at their mid-tier equipment, they are currently using the most powerful bow in the game available for troops at tier 4, that's completely absurd consdering  all other faction troops only access good gear at tier 6

Not only that, but their melee stringth is what rapes, u can't have them able to wall melee troops simply because when that happens they are able to kill 75% of the enemy on a 1/4th scale(army to army, like 100 elvarines agains 400 other troops) if in corridor doing 1/4th dmg, for the sake of testing...

If u play with normal dmg u'll get wiped, doing the math, in a siege of 600 against 100 with the AI using absolutely no tactics, that's far from acceptable.

I for one defend the idea of more than 2 entry points to each siege, hell I always found sieges in M&B to be the worst feature in the game. But that isn't the point here, the point is, when u are attacking in a siege, depending on the castle there's absolutely nothing u can do tactically to win in a decent manner.

---POST PART 2---

forgot to mention, armor materials behave differently to each kind of dmg, it would be perfect to have elvarine troops below t6 to only be resistant to puncture damage and vulnerable to slash damage, and giving slash protection only at t6,
I also think it might be another option to make them completely glass cannon:

10 power draw
0 iron flesh
7 power strike
27+ agility
18 str...

Something that makes them practically hit kill-able, but extremely fast, it would also be a good idea to give them 500 archery and 300 two handed and one handed, making them extremely deadly, but still counter-able...

If we only had 1 troop kind with 8+ on shields that would make them less of a nuisance too
 
Something unusual said:
I think the most reasonable solution to this would either be give the Redwood less troops or give the other factions more troops.

read my edited version, just added more ideas
 
xdj1nn said:
If u play with normal dmg u'll get wiped, doing the math, in a siege of 600 against 100 with the AI using absolutely no tactics, that's far from acceptable.

I do play on hardest everything, and in your example I will win, although with some losses. Elvarie is not the only ones with strong archers, they just happen to have many more troops using bows than others so every fight is under a rain of arrows.

When I started playing this mod, I really hated Redwood because they destroyed my troops so easily at range, but now after some time (and they have been nerfed since I started), I think they are okay to semi-op. Basically I only get destroyed if I'm arrogant and storm a castle with 100 men vs 300.

Edit: Not saying this to brag, but just to say that it's possible.
 
ttgg said:
xdj1nn said:
If u play with normal dmg u'll get wiped, doing the math, in a siege of 600 against 100 with the AI using absolutely no tactics, that's far from acceptable.

I do play on hardest everything, and in your example I will win, although with some losses. Elvarie is not the only ones with strong archers, they just happen to have many more troops using bows than others so every fight is under a rain of arrows.

When I started playing this mod, I really hated Redwood because they destroyed my troops so easily at range, but now after some time (and they have been nerfed since I started), I think they are okay to semi-op. Basically I only get destroyed if I'm arrogant and storm a castle with 100 men vs 300.

Edit: Not saying this to brag, but just to say that it's possible.

I've had the full Drachen army at my disposal, with their best units under my command, completely elite army, had won all sieges with 5 losses 5 wounded each campaign, when I've moved to attack them I was pretty much 75% wiped to get 1 castle, of course there are EXPLOITS that would allow me to win, one of them being the weird gun down front men, give up siege, besiege again, kill front men, etc... As it is for now it is impossible to play a purist with a faction to get even fair chances with elvarine... To be more clear: the only units able to par with them on bow to bow wars are drahara, with losses...

Guessed what tactic u've used!? yeah, problem is that they are able to hold ur melee troops at ease while others pick kills, they are not deadly at melee range tbh, they are tankish, fair and square...

I am not an crippled noob that doesn't know m&b, damn, I have being playing this game since 2006 when it was beta, y do u think I don't even own M&B in the first-place? (two years of beta playing the damned thing were enough to make me rly bored of the game, when it came out in 2008 I've refused to get the game cuz I thought it was way too incomplete to be paid, missing promised features and stuff).  Warband was an improvement but it's still much less than it could be... But that's not what I am discussing, what I am discussing is the fact that I am not an complete noobtard incapable of finding ways to defeat the elvarine, the problem is, most of the ways of defeating them in sieges are exploits or rough counter units...

In my humble opinion, forcing the player to do X so he can accomplish Y in a sandbox games compares to a crime, being it a mod or not haha
 
Something unusual said:
I think the most reasonable solution to this would either be give the Redwood less troops or give the other factions more troops.

Huh... My current save, the Redwood have +3 more towns the usual and most lords that are with the Redwoods have barely 50 tropps or more.
 
xdj1nn said:

Just going to say how I usually do vs Redwood.

If I remember correctly, I took the Redwood capital with about 200 men vs about 500 of theirs. My units were a giant mix of different ones, except no Elvarie units because they drained my morale (because of the war with Redwood). I usually make 3 lines, infantry front, cavelelry behind, and last line being archers. My troop composition is about 40-50% archers, 20% infantry and 30% cav. I then park these 3 lines in front of castle/tower and snipe away at them to thin out their archers, until just before they get reinforcements. Then I send my melee into battle. I always invest a lot in surgery/first aid etc, so while I do take some losses, it's very manageable. The only melee unit of theirs that I fear, is the insanely OP Guardian. Mostly because it has the sick Elf shield so it can just walk right through a barrage of 50 archers.

It's not a 100% realistic game, so you have to play by the games rules. I would use very different tactics if it was more realistic, but I have to adjust to what the game offers. Example: only 1 ladder to invade castle, enemy is already standing 10 meters from castle when battle starts so advantage of archers is reduced, melee troops "morph" together so you get hit by 10 different units at once if you rush ladder etc.
 
ttgg said:
xdj1nn said:

Just going to say how I usually do vs Redwood.

If I remember correctly, I took the Redwood capital with about 200 men vs about 500 of theirs. My units were a giant mix of different ones, except no Elvarie units because they drained my morale (because of the war with Redwood). I usually make 3 lines, infantry front, cavelelry behind, and last line being archers. My troop composition is about 40-50% archers, 20% infantry and 30% cav. I then park these 3 lines in front of castle/tower and snipe away at them to thin out their archers, until just before they get reinforcements. Then I send my melee into battle. I always invest a lot in surgery/first aid etc, so while I do take some losses, it's very manageable.

It's not a 100% realistic game, so you have to play by the games rules. I would use very different tactics if it was more realistic, but I have to adjust to what the game offers. Example: only 1 ladder to invade castle, enemy is already standing 10 meters from castle when battle starts so advantage of archers is reduced, melee troops "morph" together so you get hit by 10 different units at once if you rush ladder etc.

that works if u have the best shield infantry, if not u are doomed... Still, that's a mash up of multiple nations, and again roleplay ruiner by itself
 
Redwood is designed to kick other's ass. I will not change that fact. I put more thought on Redwood troops than other factions.
Seriously if you play a faction with only archer, you kinda expect its archer to be better than every other faction, given it's the only thing they have. They do so bad in a battlefield against player that if I am to nerf their siege prowess as well, what's left?

But when you are talking about melee capability I would say the Redwood is below average. Just because they have the big bad sword doesn't mean anything because their low hp and power strike. I think I have more problem hitting a Maccavian wall than a Redwood one, simply because of how tough the Maccavian infantry is.


 
oh well, those were ideas to make the mod balanced, if u want to keep it unbalanced what can I do?! I'll just have to exploit roll-press redwood from day zero so other factions don't die out.

Already had to do that with Zann in a save, it seems there's 2 nations to be wiped now =/
 
habeo123 said:
But when you are talking about melee capability I would say the Redwood is below average. Just because they have the big bad sword doesn't mean anything because their low hp and power strike.
oO Ranger Blades, Elvarie Blades, many bastard-type 1\2h swords with moderate range and high enought speed + their high agility = they cut perisno champs in melee like a grass. Yes, maccavian top tier infantry, hakkon legioners, draharan assasins doing the same with elvarish scum, but they can't shoot like a machinegun.
 
Maybe lower their proficiencies a little, so they don't swing their weapons like kitchen knives.
And for the other factions buff the top infantry shields a little.
When I say little I mean 10%.

Right now they're not extremely OP, just a little. It's annoying though that they can stop a cav charge in the field.

edit: Just attacked a lord with 58 men. I had 70, all cavalry. Took some losses on the way in, around 6-8 died to arrows, but after the initial charge, the elves butchered my cav in melee. I lost with 6 elves still standing. This was a field battle, as in the elves weren't on a steep hill or in water.
 
habeo123 said:
I think I have more problem hitting a Maccavian wall than a Redwood one, simply because of how tough the Maccavian infantry is.

If you think Maccavian infantry is tough, you should try running into a wall of Huscarls :smile: I'm referring to the crazy second-last quest of the Illica questline, where you get to meet 220 Valhir dudes. For some reason, they absolutely annihilated my cavalry.

I don't have big problems with Redwood as I mentioned, but I do believe it creates a strange balance problem when they can rack up like 3 kills per second during a siege. More than once, when I played as a Redwood vassal, I could easily take a city or castle just by standing outside the walls and letting the arrows rain. I'm talking 250+ kills before my archers ran out of arrows.

It's worse on some maps than others. For example, the map in my previously linked screenshot (http://imgur.com/om9YNbc) is insane versus Redwood, because ALL your troops start in direct line of fire from the invading army. I'm talking like 20-30 deaths in a matter of seconds, before I had a chance to move my guys below deck.
 
I made a test to see that, I put my guy's stats and inventory to be exactly like a Kingsman and put him 1v1 a Elvarie Redwood Ranger (in the 1v1 duel troop mode) in AI mode (Ctrl + F5) and the results are

My guy vs Tolranian Kingsman (to make sure that there's no difference): 5 - 5

My guy vs Elvarie Redwood Ranger 0 - 8

So yeah Elvarie Redwood pretty much destroys Tolranian Kingsman

My guy vs Elvarie Ranger 1 - 4

Note I only tested my guy with a Fixed Bastard Sword.

Elves are ridiculously OP. I made my own customized troops instead.
 
Everyone is screaming NERF THE ELVES NERF THE ELVES without even thinking for a second on why else they are actually strong in map and actually in the battle.
Look at all aspects before screeching about it and ill point some out now to give an idea.

1. The troops they get via the troop templates are generally more elite than what the rivals get. (compared to tolrania) A way to nerf them would be to remove rangers and duskfalls from the B template and replace them with a lower tier troop. This can balance them out without modifying the actual solders.
2. There starting area is smaller. Which means its easier for AI marshals to gather the army to attack the enemy factions. Since they have to be in a certain range of a lord to call them up. Tolania is spread out which slows down the rate which the AI marshal can gather the army. (Hakkon is pretty bad as well) This is what I believe allows them to dominate on the map the most.
3. Formations AI is too passive and choose to hold and advance slowly (sometimes cavalry don't charge at all). this favors the redwood allowing them to dominate in field battles.
If the enemy was more aggressive and can reach there archer line quicker they would do better.




 
xdj1nn said:
Theo H said:

1. Partially true
2. False.
3. Diplomacy AI in a higher mode fixes this if done with the highest AI level in M&B

1. Glad you agree.
2. You don't seem to know a thing about how the AI functions. They need to be in range of a marshal to join and therefore fight in campaigns and take and defend land.
You ever seen an AI say this...I don't know where to find the main army. That means they are out of range and therefore cant assist there faction in campaign.
3. What settings don't change much, formations AI is in need of some work and they move to slow. This is a fact and others have posted noticing this as well. Having high settings still has the issues which I mentioned. But its being addressed and I wait eagerly to see what the results they will be.
 
In my opinion, Redwood Rangers (or how they named) is completely deadly in large numbers, but if there are few, they can't do anything against army of Dragoners/Eagles/Wolves/Worshipers etc in the field (despite they decimate horses, still quite large pack of HC will reach them and beat'em into dust)
But in sieges...well, or I have to completely ignore Redwood (let some Tolranians or Hakkons do the dirty work, you can beat'em more easily later) or "fight fire with fire", even if top tiers in small numbers, "shooting walls" just decimate any army
By the way Redguard Mercs in Lille is insanely good against all rangers, don't know why, but they can hold fire from Redwood Rangers for some time (but the time is not comparable with other archers though)
 
Back
Top Bottom