after the weirdest siege ever, a conclusion

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xdj1nn

Knight at Arms
elvarine troops are overpowered, u can say whatever you want about it, but it is a fact. They have too much melee power to be so good archers, besieging elves is the most unforgiving battle in the mod as so far, u can have a gigantic army of elites and u still gonna get ur ass handed...

capturing maccavian / tolrina(tolvarina or whatever) is quite ok, drahara gets a bit trick, but it's okay, but elvarine gets more than half ur troops down, apparently they hold a majority of top tier troops and those are overpowered, that's y every and each game they conquer half the map up to day 100, it not only becomes a nuisance for the player, it also breaks all other factions down since the auto-calc takes all factors in count... It is almost impossible to see an elvarine campaign go bad... What I've being doing to hold them back is using cavalry before any siege happens, but it's still annoying not being able to conquer their territory to hold them back, my best bet is that they will always win in the long run...
 
I agree.
They need to be nerfed so that they do not have amazing melee capabilities - currently their high tiers are better than a Kingsman in 1v1 melee, and kingsmen are intended to be the best melee heavy infantry in game.
 
While I cannot speak to how OP their troops are as I have never used or fought them. But they definitely don't always conquer the map, as in my last game the were totally wiped out and never throughout all 300+ days took a single castle or town.
 
Shidan said:
While I cannot speak to how OP their troops are as I have never used or fought them. But they definitely don't always conquer the map, as in my last game the were totally wiped out and never throughout all 300+ days took a single castle or town.

that's because u are probably playing with low AI on campaign map

Something unusual said:
I agree.
They need to be nerfed so that they do not have amazing melee capabilities - currently their high tiers are better than a Kingsman in 1v1 melee, and kingsmen are intended to be the best melee heavy infantry in game.

WOOOT?!?! haha I need to play as elvarine more
 
I don't care how many troops i lose when killing the redwood, the satisfaction of thinning the pointy-eared herd more than makes up for it  :mrgreen:

In open field battles they're fine, but in sieges, just.. expect many casualties, no way around it, it's gonna happen
 
Instead of absolutely nerfing their melee, just give them a 1 handed sword instead of 2 handed sword. I agree their melee is powerful, but they have no infantry and the only infantry you can get is ELvarie Mercs or just Mercs.
 
_Cooper_ said:
Instead of absolutely nerfing their melee, just give them a 1 handed sword instead of 2 handed sword. I agree their melee is powerful, but they have no infantry and the only infantry you can get is ELvarie Mercs or just Mercs.

u are asking them to stay OP, the whole point on the elves in this mod is that they are legendary archers, and have no infantry, u can't make a do-it-all unit, it has to be balanced...

What about we give 93 acc bows to Drachen wyvern riders, give them 9 power draw + 8 horse archery, then give them the strongest unit armor in the game and equip them with 40+ dmg weapons? it would be the exact same thing...


Currently top tier elves wear the best armor in the game, have one of the highest STR, and are geared with the best common bow from tier 3 up to top, same goes with their swords... It isn't fair at all, they have to have way less HP or be abysmall with melee weapons(skilled at 100 at most).

And a tip for the devs, the best way to make infantry units is equipping them with 1 polearm and 1 fast very short-range weapon with decent dmg, through some tweaks I've found that in Floris the rhodoks were the most effective melee unit in the game, the only advantage nords had were stats, but they would get wiped by rhodoks each and everytime, only to come back again because all rhodok short range weapons were blunt dmg =/
 
Perisno troops are fine against them. I myself in my game kept a constant army of squires perisno pilgrims and perisno  soldiers and beat them.
 
LudicrusSMaximusS said:
Perisno troops are fine against them. I myself in my game kept a constant army of squires perisno pilgrims and perisno  soldiers and beat them.
I think this is because Perisno troops are meant to be on par with the best faction troops in the game - darkforest riders best cav, champions/zealots/holy champions the best infantry and darkforest archers best archers. Naturally, this means that they should be able to take on the redwoods quite well.

Don't know too much about the nobles, but I do know that those great knights are absolute infantry monsters from personal experience. Thing about Perisno troops is that they are meant to be incredibly good, but this comes at a cost - they are quite hard to finally level up to their best.
 
Alternatively, Give the redwood less starting land and/or lords, and let them be almighty.
The balance then being that they can be overwhelmed by a larger force much more easily, but in the usual fare of lord on lord, and in sieges, they will still have the upper hand.

Balancing away from troop to troop and thinking about the bigger picture. Just some food for thought.

Though i find them fine the way they are, overpowered perhaps, but not invincible. so defeating them is far more satisfying than crushing a Draharan army :wink:
 
Rabbie86 said:
Alternatively, Give the redwood less starting land and/or lords, and let them be almighty.
The balance then being that they can be overwhelmed by a larger force much more easily, but in the usual fare of lord on lord, and in sieges, they will still have the upper hand.

Balancing away from troop to troop and thinking about the bigger picture. Just some food for thought.

Though i find them fine the way they are, overpowered perhaps, but not invincible. so defeating them is far more satisfying than crushing a Draharan army :wink:

I think that sounds the best idea in this topic so far  :grin:

I love the way Redwood elves are atm, I just don't like how they are way so much better than the rest...

An weird alternative would be to make everyone else stronger
 
Ahh but that would spark the power creep effect.

x is stronger than y
- make y stronger
y is now stronger than x
- make x stronger

and so on and so forth :razz:
 
complaints: redwood is strong !!

>then better nef Drahara and buff some random faction
that will solve the all problems, I promise  :!:

it works for wow so far till now right ? :lol:
 
Just buff Maccavian swordmasters\northguads shields... and no more redwoods. Forniron was conquered twice with small (20-30 soldiers) casualties at near 110% difficulty by bunch of maccavian infantry + perisno ranger knights as cover.
 
Rabbie86 said:
Ahh but that would spark the power creep effect.

x is stronger than y
- make y stronger
y is now stronger than x
- make x stronger

and so on and so forth :razz:

That's the weird alternative, it works, if done properly, it's a matter of calculating the total skill points of elvarine troops, the armor and dmg output, then recreating the same values in all other troops, of course, giving them the best possible specialization in comparisson...

Another interesting feat would be to have a crossbow specialized faction with crossbow hulks(tons of HP with decent reloading speed and abysmal melee strenght) that way it would be possible to mash up top melee + top crossbow against elvarine, but, u would be force to crossnations to do that most of the time.

Another interesting idea would be to make Maccavians more like the vanilla Nords, the highest HP in the game with descent melee/throwing mash ups....

Another would be to simply intensify all melee troops and keeping elvarines exactly the same...

Finally, I think the best solution is to nerf elvarines, but it is a sad thing, the nerf has 2 ways of occuring, the idea given before by Rabbie, which would significantly make elvarines struggle to get powerful, still having the best troops, secondly it would be to downgrade either their stats or their equipment...

idea 2: give some freakin faction shield specialists, the highest shield troops have only 6 skill on it... =/
 
How badly would you want them nerfed? Do you want them destroyed or still competent? With a faction like Elvaire, completely archers, there is so much you can do. If an enemy isnt a strong shield faction, they are going to take casualties. I do agree the melee is MUCH to powerful for archers, lowering HP,PS and Weapon points i can agree with, as long as you dont touch their archery.
 
While I agree Redwood are currently a bit OP, I have to disagree on why they are OP. Sure they are strong in melee, but they absolutely RAPE in ranged combat. This might be intended, but when 95% of their troops are skilled archers, you basically get destroyed in sieges unless you use strange tactics, like have your troops retreat below and form an archer wall to kill everyone who climbs the ladder as they get up, basically forcing them through a small corridor.

In my opinion, the problem can be solved by reducing how many of their units are skilled archers to max half their troops. Saying all elves are elite archers are like saying all asians are good at math :wink: It doesn't make sense to say that all elves suck at melee either, which is why I believe they absolutely should have some troops good at melee.

How I dealt with a Redwood siege
http://imgur.com/om9YNbc
 
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