Affiliate to a family

kadmendo99

Regular
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Roran 13 said:
If I marry a lady in a family I want to affiliate with, I can't affiliate anymore... Am I automatically a part of the family? Do I get the benefits of it?
i have the same problem,i am married to lady keatli and affiliated to jarl turya.
and no,you are not getting the benefits of it
 

Roran 13

Grandmaster Knight
M&BWBNW
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:sad: I want to affiliate with them, though I still can with his brother, will my father-in-law be "affiliated" with me aswell if aI affiliate with his brother?
 

kadmendo99

Regular
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Roran 13 said:
:sad: I want to affiliate with them, though I still can with his brother, will my father-in-law be "affiliated" with me aswell if aI affiliate with his brother?
i'm not sure...
i think yes
 

zParsifal

Squire
M&BWBWF&S
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kadmendo99 said:
Roran 13 said:
:sad: I want to affiliate with them, though I still can with his brother, will my father-in-law be "affiliated" with me aswell if aI affiliate with his brother?
i'm not sure...
i think yes
You are correct.

kadmendo99 said:
what does that mean:"Not a chance,Since i dislike you,i will not sponsor you."
and my relationship with him was +32
There are conditions other than relationship depending on the lord, but they always give the same message when they refuse.

This is something that could be improved.
 

zParsifal

Squire
M&BWBWF&S
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Changes related to this feature in the Diplomacy 3.3.2+ update on 2011-06-06:

1) The check for getting kicked out has changed.

There must be at least one affiliate who seriously dislikes you (worse than -20 relation), and either you must have more detractors than friends in the affiliation (i.e. more people with negative relation than with 20+ relation) or your greatest detractor must dislike you more than your greatest supporter likes you.

2) You receive notifications of your affiliates' plans.  When they are captured, you are also told who has them or where they are being held.

3) You may now give troops to your affiliates, and also give troops to their garrisons (but not take them back).

4) The relation loss for defeat has been altered.

It is now lower on settings below "Hard", and now takes into account circumstances such as war -- affiliates who are in your faction fighting against affiliates in another faction won't lose relation with you when their relatives are defeated, considering their AI will gun for their relatives' parties as hard as anyone else.

Otherwise, even those not on your side will have reduced relation loss if the person who was defeated was at war with you, except when the player is a rebel or otherwise the leader of his own faction (in which case the player does not have any excuse, and they blame him entirely).

5) You may get improved relations with other affiliates when you rescue one of them.  (The relation boost is equal to or less than the relation loss when they get defeated.)
 

daisyj201

Recruit
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So is there a reason king/queen players can't affiliate with a family?

Also, is it even worth it to affiliate? I'm hearing a lot of frustrated stories.
 

Leran

Recruit
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I think it's nice. You get constant relation boost + all those extra interaction options.
I don't have problems with relation dropping but that might be because I choose a small family with powerful lords who don't need me to babysit them :razz: 

BUT: It's a bit strange that you can just randomly affiliate to a family and than have these features with them but  not with the family of your spouse. IMO the entire thing should simply be merged with marriage (and maybe an option to turn them of for people who dislike the affiliate features but still want to marry).
Then you would also really belong to a family and not just be obscurely "affiliated". 


EDIT: Now I've got an even better idea  :mrgreen:
What is annoying me is that you do not show up as part of the family in character relations with your affiliated family and don't get the features with the family of the spouse. One fix would be merging the whole thing with marriage as I said but that would be limiting.
Another option would be adoption. As the game does not seem to have "grandfather" relation strings you should only be able to be adopted by the "father" of the family.
This is also realistic as younger lords who don't have their own children yet would be unwilling to adopt someone and only the head of the family should have the authority to accept someone into the family.
The relation with your new father should be the most important but positive/negative relations with your new brothers will give bonuses/mali and could push the acceptation/rejection over the edge.
You will than show up in the relations as son/daughter and will have brothers/sisters

If you then marry someone you will all become one big family fixing the problem of the lacking affiliation features for the family of your spouse.
 

nirkoj

Knight at Arms
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daisyj201 said:
So is there a reason king/queen players can't affiliate with a family?

Also, is it even worth it to affiliate? I'm hearing a lot of frustrated stories.
I suppose it's in the interest of some players to be able to provide any means of additional protection to geographically strategic fiefs if they are planning to recruit the lord who owns them when they start their own kingdom, though i find this rather occasion specific, just an example though. I've never really had problems increasing my relationship with a given lord. Still, i suppose some people find the features useful depending on their gameplay, others may simply enjoy the roleplay involved. As for rulers affiliating to another family, read below.

Leran said:
BUT: It's a bit strange that you can just randomly affiliate to a family and than have these features with them but  not with the family of your spouse. IMO the entire thing should simply be merged with marriage (and maybe an option to turn them of for people who dislike the affiliate features but still want to marry).
Then you would also really belong to a family and not just be obscurely "affiliated". 


EDIT: Now I've got an even better idea  :mrgreen:
What is annoying me is that you do not show up as part of the family in character relations with your affiliated family and don't get the features with the family of the spouse. One fix would be merging the whole thing with marriage as I said but that would be limiting.
Another option would be adoption. As the game does not seem to have "grandfather" relation strings you should only be able to be adopted by the "father" of the family.
This is also realistic as younger lords who don't have their own children yet would be unwilling to adopt someone and only the head of the family should have the authority to accept someone into the family.
The relation with your new father should be the most important but positive/negative relations with your new brothers will give bonuses/mali and could push the acceptation/rejection over the edge.
You will than show up in the relations as son/daughter and will have brothers/sisters

If you then marry someone you will all become one big family fixing the problem of the lacking affiliation features for the family of your spouse.
The merging idea doesn't make any sense. The concept "Affiliate" to a family means you become a member of that family, namely you're a member of their house. The concept of "marriage" is a completely opposite ocurrance, as in they are giving their daugther to you, namely in she's a member of your own house. You're asking to merge two opposite sides of a coin. The adoption path would be the correct one.

 

daisyj201

Recruit
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nirkoj said:
The merging idea doesn't make any sense. The concept "Affiliate" to a family means you become a member of that family, namely you're a member of their house. The concept of "marriage" is a completely opposite ocurrance, as in they are giving their daugther to you, namely in she's a member of your own house. You're asking to merge two opposite sides of a coin. The adoption path would be the correct one.
I understand how this explanation fits with male players, but what if you're playing as a woman? Wouldn't that get a bit confusing? What I was going to do as a girl was affiliate with Jarl Harald's family and then marry into Jarl Turya's family. (The two Jarls in this case are not related.)
 

nirkoj

Knight at Arms
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daisyj201 said:
nirkoj said:
The merging idea doesn't make any sense. The concept "Affiliate" to a family means you become a member of that family, namely you're a member of their house. The concept of "marriage" is a completely opposite ocurrance, as in they are giving their daugther to you, namely in she's a member of your own house. You're asking to merge two opposite sides of a coin. The adoption path would be the correct one.
I understand how this explanation fits with male players, but what if you're playing as a woman? Wouldn't that get a bit confusing? What I was going to do as a girl was affiliate with Jarl Harald's family and then marry into Jarl Turya's family. (The two Jarls in this case are not related.)
I find the merging idea not plausible and rather confusing myself. Let's try this: if the two jarls are not related, like in your case, i see that "merging" would limit your options. If the two jarls are related it creates an issue, since you would be pretty much marrying a brother/sister, leading to a relation overlap: your former family members now become your in-laws or viceversa. This is why merging is incorrect as i mentioned before, marriage involves two families, affiliation does not. I sustain that merging doesn't make sense.

 

daisyj201

Recruit
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nirkoj said:
daisyj201 said:
nirkoj said:
The merging idea doesn't make any sense. The concept "Affiliate" to a family means you become a member of that family, namely you're a member of their house. The concept of "marriage" is a completely opposite ocurrance, as in they are giving their daugther to you, namely in she's a member of your own house. You're asking to merge two opposite sides of a coin. The adoption path would be the correct one.
I understand how this explanation fits with male players, but what if you're playing as a woman? Wouldn't that get a bit confusing? What I was going to do as a girl was affiliate with Jarl Harald's family and then marry into Jarl Turya's family. (The two Jarls in this case are not related.)
I find the merging idea not plausible and rather confusing myself. Let's try this: if the two jarls are not related, like in your case, i see that "merging" would limit your options. If the two jarls are related it creates an issue, since you would be pretty much marrying a brother/sister, leading to a relation overlap: your former family members now become your in-laws or viceversa. This is why merging is incorrect as i mentioned before, marriage involves two families, affiliation does not. I sustain that merging doesn't make sense.
Not to mention one of the perks of affiliation if you're playing a man is that you can marry any lady in the family without objection from her guardian. If affiliation worked like adoption, that would be awkward.
 

nirkoj

Knight at Arms
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Wikipedia said:
In medieval society, bloodlines were paramount; a ruling dynasty lacking a natural-born heir apparent was replaced, a stark contrast to Roman traditions. The evolution of European law reflects this aversion to adoption. English Common Law, for instance, did not permit adoption since it contradicted the customary rules of inheritance.
Even knights of the highest rank weren't regarded as family by the nobles they served, therefore never allowed to court noble ladies since it would obstacle the succession of the right to the throne. This is one of the reasons why eloping was severely punished. With this in mind, i firmly believe that if you affiliate to a given family you should actually be unable to marry its ladies, as it would be contradictory. These are just my two cents.
 

daisyj201

Recruit
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nirkoj said:
Wikipedia said:
In medieval society, bloodlines were paramount; a ruling dynasty lacking a natural-born heir apparent was replaced, a stark contrast to Roman traditions. The evolution of European law reflects this aversion to adoption. English Common Law, for instance, did not permit adoption since it contradicted the customary rules of inheritance.
Even knights of the highest rank weren't regarded as family by the nobles they served, therefore never allowed to court noble ladies since it would obstacle the succession of the right to the throne. This is one of the reasons why eloping was severely punished. With this in mind, i firmly believe that if you affiliate to a given family you should actually be unable to marry its ladies, as it would be contradictory. These are just my two cents.
Fair enough. But it's a game, so I'm completely content with it even if it isn't exactly like Mideval English society. :smile:
 

nirkoj

Knight at Arms
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daisyj201 said:
Fair enough. But it's a game, so I'm completely content with it even if it isn't exactly like Mideval English society. :smile:
Indeed, and i'm completely content with the current marriage system. Though my historical remark is not for the sake of realism, but for the sole purpose of adding a little more context to the issue i mentioned before: "merging" this feature with marriage creates a conflict by leading to a relation overlap between your relatives and in-laws.
 

KnowSin

Recruit
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Practical consequences of getting affiliated with a family is that your reputation with them eventually goes negative. Even with best campaign AI it is not possible to protect NPC lords, they get defeated doing something stupid and you take reputation hit. Larger the family, faster this happens. At least please change it so you _only_ take reputation hit with defeated lord OR disable reputation hit when your nation is on campaign (you are at war, actively campaigning, getting defeated is expected).  Additionally, give you an option to pay ransom for captured lord in your family for large reputation boost. Last but not least, would be nice to know where they held captive so you can attempt rescues.


I think getting affiliated to family should be a path to overthrowing existing monarch. It is clans that ruled, and all intrigue/revolts were usually started by families. Sovereign ought to belong to a clan, you join different clan you can have a civil war, overthrow and install yourself as a monarch.
 

Waihti

Knight at Arms
WB
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KnowSin said:
Practical consequences of getting affiliated with a family is that your reputation with them eventually goes negative. Even with best campaign AI it is not possible to protect NPC lords, they get defeated doing something stupid and you take reputation hit. Larger the family, faster this happens. At least please change it so you _only_ take reputation hit with defeated lord OR disable reputation hit when your nation is on campaign (you are at war, actively campaigning, getting defeated is expected).
I lowered the rep hit, will be in 4.1

KnowSin said:
Additionally, give you an option to pay ransom for captured lord in your family for large reputation boost. Last but not least, would be nice to know where they held captive so you can attempt rescues.
Good idea.
 

Chase2991

Recruit
M&BWBWF&S
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I looked through all the posts here, and I don't see anything about this. Forgive me if I passed over it.

I did not personally have a direct problem with this, but a friend of mine has. There are some families you can't affiliate to. As in, the option is not given to ask. Why is this? The lord in question is "Upstanding," and the player has an honor rating of 12, the lord is also in good standing with the player. I'm not sure the exact relation value, but its not so low. I've noticed this a few times in my own games as well.

Under what circumstance are you able to ask a lord to be affiliated, and under what circumstance is that option denied?
 

orome

Sergeant at Arms
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if you are already affiliated with another family you cannot ask any other. you have in first post of this thread cases about affiliation.

there are some bugs in this great mod but you had to know that this mod has no modder any more. nobody works on it in the past six months. i asked several times does anyone wants to try modding or to help me starting but nobody answered.

sorry about english.
 

Chase2991

Recruit
M&BWBWF&S
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orome said:
if you are already affiliated with another family you cannot ask any other.
This is not the case, I noticed it in my game before I affiliated, and my friend has yet to affiliate also.

orome said:
there are some bugs in this great mod but you had to know that this mod has no modder any more. nobody works on it in the past six months. i asked several times does anyone wants to try modding or to help me starting but nobody answered.
I posted in the support topic recently, about a problem I was having with starting a save file as a noble. I did get a response from someone, and they said that it should be fixed at some point soon. If no one is working on the mod, how could that be?

I'm no modder, and I know nothing about what goes into it. I wish you luck in finding someone to help you work with the mod.