Adding content from other mods/modpacks? (Including the Pirates and Fish mod)

[CPT.Quintus]

A couple features? Sure. A whole 'slap'? Please no.

Exactly my thoughts, right there!

 

[Ostboll]

You have to be kidding me. IIRC, there was some trouble over that of some sort, and it wasnt at all in the favor of Yoshi. Im quite sure I heard his name whispered in a dark corner of a thread somewhere for beeing a massive putz. What, do you think Theyre is just going to hand out a source code like candy?

I never heard anything bad about Yoshi personally, although you might be right the story isn't as one sided as the comment I quoted would have you believe, or the other fanboys retelling it for that matter. However, looking at how Talesworld handles DLCs (dumping sourcecode to bought studios that produce borderline stolen shovelware resembling poor mods most of the time), and considering their clear motives for stealing Yoshis ideas and attempting to 'steal' his work and handing it to an outright bad studio that they had signed with (WFaS guys) for easy cash, it's not exactly improbable that this is what they actually did. This stuff is common in the industry too, just look at what DICE did to the Desert Combat team etc. I'm not saying Talesworld won't make a good game with M&BII, I'm just saying they're funding that product in a morally questionable manner. I mean come on the vikings thing. The fact here is that Talesworld did hand out the source code 'like candy' to a different studio for WFaS, and since they were all hugs and kisses with those guys, they decided that instead of signing/incorporating a new studio/bunch of devs and making a quality game, they would make the abomination that is Caribbean! with their honey-boos and not only not hire Yoshi/OrangeDuck, but also have the audacity to ask them to hand out their work for free to Talesworld, no compensation, after having not even mentioned them, claimed they 'were inspired' by Talesworld & co., and refused to give them the source code and/or sign them for a full product. At that point Yoshi gave up, which you might perceive as immature as sure he could have worked around the lack of source code or something but I guess he just had enough. However, this doesn't rule out the possibility that he might one day return and co-operate with l'Aigle to add his already made stuff there.

Im not sad. The ships menueverred way too quickly and easily, for one. And im not sure if it was just the video, but the 'bobbing' effect looked terrible and choppy. Also, why the devil would we want a Caribbean map in this mod?

Okay, in my personal opinion, everything except the music about that mod was/is mouth watering. Sure the ship moved too quickly (a very easy fix for later versions), and the video recording isn't optimal, and the bobbing was a bit too much but those are very easy fixes. I don't suppose you noticed the looks of the carribean map, the carribean backgrounds in-game, the actual cannon balls flying around ripping stuff up, the dynamic sail adaptation to wind direction, the new face models etc? Adding controllable ships, fireable cannons and adaptive wind to the game is a huge bit of work.

And why would we want the Caribbean map in this mod? Well, because of the Spanish American wars of independence? The increase in piracy with the demise of the Spanish crown? The West Indies campaign? Or the war of 1812 maybe? The extensive naval wars surrounding the Napoleonic wars and the era had a huge impact on and were often focused around the Caribbean.

Also, if you were to 'just slap the floris mod on there', then you would have a horrible disgrace indeed, and it would be way less fun, IMO. A couple features? Sure. A whole 'slap'? Please no.

Surely you can't interpret things so literally as to think my somewhat humorous use of the term 'slap' meant I wanted all the Viking armours etc. added to l'Aigle? What I meant was that a huge portion of the floris pack is about dramatically improving the SP campaign gameplay, and it would be a shame to ignore this huge chunk of great work that almost no other serious mod out there currently ignores, since it would drastically decrease the quality of the SP campaign to do so (see my previous post with the spoiler list if you want to know all the countless awesome features the floris pack adds). Of course, some slight alterations would be required for things to fit smoothly into the l'Aigle format. For instance, it would be strange to speak to a medieval gentleman with some strange feudal title when you wanted to dispatch a patrol of gendarmerie dragoons. This should of course be changed to an 1800's era assistant of some sort, but still the feature is wonderful and it just feels empty without it. If you did think I meant you should just shove the unaltered Floris pack into this mod then I apologize for expressing myself poorly.

Exactly my thoughts, right there!

See the section right above this one for a reply please.

 

[CPT.Quintus]

I did see the section above, and quite frankly you appear to me as a person obsessed with a mediocre mod almost nobody but yourself wants.

Now I think I've had enough talking about this for I hate talking to someone who sounds like a broken record. I wish you a pleasant evening.

 

[Hysterion]

I did see the section above, and quite frankly you appear to me as a person obsessed with a mediocre mod almost nobody but yourself wants.

Now I think I've had enough talking about this for I hate talking to someone who sounds like a broken record. I wish you a pleasant evening.

I was wondering when you would give up like i did 

Spoiler

 

[Ostboll]

I did see the section above, and quite frankly you appear to me as a person obsessed with a mediocre mod almost nobody but yourself wants.

Now I think I've had enough talking about this for I hate talking to someone who sounds like a broken record. I wish you a pleasant evening.

You did in past tense? Because I posted the "see the section..." thing at the same time I posted that section. Are you sure you're thinking about the right section (note: not comment)? I mean the one in which I reply to the same message you replied to, about the floris modpack. But I digress. Apparently, thinking doc should add the basic Floris content as most mods have since the vanilla SP campaign has some awkward flaws and lacking features is me being "a person obsessed with a mediocre mod almost nobody but yourself wants." (a rather hostile thing to write no?). Maybe you read the wrong part and assumed I was talking about the pirates and fishmod and not the floris pack? If you did read it and just called the floris modpack "a mediocre mod almost nobody but yourself wants", then I can only disagree. The floris modpack has been topping the modDB charts since its creation, has various mods based on it, and most of the content in it (which for ease of conversation shall be referred to as the floris modpack content) is used in virtually every decent mod since it's essentially the patch that never was for the SP campaign.

It is somewhat strange to me that several people had a very passive-aggressive, non-argumentative and somewhat offensive tone, acting seemingly offended, because I suggested/asked about adding the basic floris content like most other mods have. You guys didn't quite argue for your cause very much either... Somehow asking about Floris seems to have questioned the authority of Doc (whom I have followed, supported and donated to for the last three years) or something, which is unacceptable. People act quite strangely on these forums some times. Anyway, I apologize for offending you with the floris modpack, this was certainly not my intention at all. Have a pleasant evening to you too!

I was wondering when you would give up like i did 

Spoiler

See the last part of the above after "It is somewhat strange to me..."

 

[Carlosdmc]

I think everybody here is too set in their own ways.

Balance is the key, Docm30 hasn't voiced over this, perhaps it would be a good thing to work along the Pirates And Fish team or atleast get permission to their assets, since Docm30 will not use this to make money there is a fair chance this guy may accept.

Jus saying, I'd rather see this project go on rails than wait 2 decades for it to be done.

 

[Ostboll]

I think everybody here is too set in their own ways.

Balance is the key, Docm30 hasn't voiced over this, perhaps it would be a good thing to work along the Pirates And Fish team or atleast get permission to their assets, since Docm30 will not use this to make money there is a fair chance this guy may accept.

Jus saying, I'd rather see this project go on rails than wait 2 decades for it to be done.

I can only agree with you there. Let's not forget there's only 24 hours to a day and Doc is made of flesh and bones. The floris and the (possible but not probable) inclusion of the pirates and fish mod content would get this game three years further ahead, floris patching the SP campaign and pirates and fish speeding up the stated goal of adding naval battles (which would mean loads of extra work for doc otherwise). Then again we can't really know how far he's gotten with that. So far all we've seen is that when people attack each other along the sea routes they duke it out on already boarded ships. If that's where doc is at then he'd need a lot of energy drinks and late nights to reach where the pirates and fish mod died, besides so far his focus seems to have been on epic land battles. Sea battles would be that kind of work all over again.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

Taking assets in large numbers from other mods is almost always a bad idea. Ignoring the fact that docm has a very distinct visual style, it takes time and effort to put code and resources into a mod that's already progressed quite a way -- time that could quite easily be spent writing that code from scratch to better fit with the mod.

In my opinion floris is an incoherent mess, with a ton of borderline useless, contradictory or even detrimental features. Brytenwalda's similar (although these elements were more finely balanced than in floris).

Besides klabautermann's ship combat (which works terribly with Napoleonic-sized ships), there isn't anything from either of these mods (which hasn't already been added in one form or another) that wouldn't be incredibly out of place in L'Aigle.

 

[joer5835]

I'm no modding genius, but wouldn't including these mods at this stage not require Docm to remake L'Aigle from scratch again?

 

[Hysterion]

Taking assets in large numbers from other mods is almost always a bad idea. Ignoring the fact that docm has a very distinct visual style, it takes time and effort to put code and resources into a mod that's already progressed quite a way -- time that could quite easily be spent writing that code from scratch to better fit with the mod.

In my opinion floris is an incoherent mess, with a ton of borderline useless, contradictory or even detrimental features. Brytenwalda's similar (although these elements were more finely balanced than in floris).

Besides klabautermann's ship combat (which works terribly with Napoleonic-sized ships), there isn't anything from either of these mods (which hasn't already been added in one form or another) that wouldn't be incredibly out of place in L'Aigle.

Dude don't bother trying to explain that to him. We all tried, yet he goes on and on about fish and chips, master and commander or whatever...

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

I'm no modding genius, but wouldn't including these mods at this stage not require Docm to remake L'Aigle from scratch again?

Not if he uses a couple of scripts here and there, but if he cuts and pastes wholesale from the complex web of scripts that is floris, it would be the equivalent of rebuilding a mod from fairly low down.

 

[Carlosdmc]

I think everybody here is too set in their own ways.

Balance is the key, Docm30 hasn't voiced over this, perhaps it would be a good thing to work along the Pirates And Fish team or atleast get permission to their assets, since Docm30 will not use this to make money there is a fair chance this guy may accept.

Jus saying, I'd rather see this project go on rails than wait 2 decades for it to be done.

I can only agree with you there. Let's not forget there's only 24 hours to a day and Doc is made of flesh and bones. The floris and the (possible but not probable) inclusion of the pirates and fish mod content would get this game three years further ahead, floris patching the SP campaign and pirates and fish speeding up the stated goal of adding naval battles (which would mean loads of extra work for doc otherwise). Then again we can't really know how far he's gotten with that. So far all we've seen is that when people attack each other along the sea routes they duke it out on already boarded ships. If that's where doc is at then he'd need a lot of energy drinks and late nights to reach where the pirates and fish mod died, besides so far his focus seems to have been on epic land battles. Sea battles would be that kind of work all over again.

Indeed, I just don't want to see this take decades to be done, asking for help has never hurt anybody.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

Docm Has asked for help on several occasions, all of which ended up in the "helpers" not providing much help and disappearing after slowing progress down. Modding teams can actually be a lot slower and ineffective than a single person, especially for something as vague as "add features".

 

[Carlosdmc]

Don't think a man can do more than a group of organized men, the way of men is the way of the gang.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

Guess you've never tried coordinating a group project over the internet with people you don't personally know.
I've seen a lot of mod teams whittle away to a single person with very little to show for it. There are a few examples of successful group projects on this site (1257 springs to mind), but also countless other dead mods where the team just evaporates due to a lack of organisation and focus.

 

[Hysterion]

Don't think a man can do more than a group of organized men, the way of men is the way of the gang.

As jacobhinds said, it's very difficult to organize a group of people to work on a single thing, especially if they are just random people on the internet you never even met. Just because you chat with them every day, doesn't mean you really know them, how they think, how they act in certain situations, etc.

For example look at this thread now, only you and that other guy ask for floris, pirates, ships and whatnot, while the rest of us say it's a bad idea. Now lets say a guy comes to this thread as a team leader and tries to organize us so we all agree on one thing, it's almost impossible, to the point where i would say completely impossible.

It's the same thing with the modding teams, very hard to organize them all, and sooner or later they will start to disagree with each other, for whatever reason. Some will simply lose interest as i said earlier, or they promise certain things, but never deliver them. Most of them just want to be in the "credits" section, so in the end, the team falls apart.

jacobhinds tells the truth, you can count on your hand the amount of mods that have dedicated teams, majority of the mods are done by 1-2 people, and several other people who contribute an item or script, things like that...

 

[Ostboll]

Taking assets in large numbers from other mods is almost always a bad idea. Ignoring the fact that docm has a very distinct visual style, it takes time and effort to put code and resources into a mod that's already progressed quite a way -- time that could quite easily be spent writing that code from scratch to better fit with the mod.

In my opinion floris is an incoherent mess, with a ton of borderline useless, contradictory or even detrimental features. Brytenwalda's similar (although these elements were more finely balanced than in floris).

Besides klabautermann's ship combat (which works terribly with Napoleonic-sized ships), there isn't anything from either of these mods (which hasn't already been added in one form or another) that wouldn't be incredibly out of place in L'Aigle.

Now this is how to express a different opinion/pespective in a respectable, polite and logical manner without insulting people or getting offended by the word "floris". Thank you jacobhind. Now to retort:
Regarding the "distinct visual style", I assume you're referring to a style that one might describe as "mind blowingly detailed and awesome" and I agree few modders do things visually as well as doc does. However, the only visual element that I suggested implementing in this case was possibly the ships, the campaign map and the new facial textures from the dead pirates and fish mod and absolutely nothing visual at all from the mods usually associated with the floris pack. Regarding the pirates and fish mod, Yoshiboy/OrangeDuck were known to make things to perfection and thus their ships would be difficult to distinguish from docs work, IF it was to be chosen to add anything visual at all from the mod and permission was given and all that. It should be noted that the key feature and the one that is most likely of the unlikely features to be implemented is the ship battle dynamic. Doc has already made ship models and textures, so adding and tweaking the already existing scripts for making these controllable and fire-able in-game wouldn't affect the visual style at all. Of course, all this is strictly hypothetical and I'm about 98% certain no pirates and fish-parts will ever be implemented, nor anything visual from any of the various floris mods (although certain floris related features are already in the l'Aigle mod of course.)

Now, I'm not a certified expert on this in any way, but looking at how other mods like ACOK etc. did it, they all implemented mods associated with the floris modpack after a while seemingly without any major hiccups. Granted how much of l'Aigle still translates to vanilla and how the floris mods aren't usually altering much but rather adding, the standards, like patrol dispatches, battle order, companion loots, etc, shouldn't be too hard to add. Please do note that I'm talking out my *ss here since I'm not an actual modder and am just making assumptions.

Regarding the floris being a mess I agree entirely. However, I used "floris" as a term here since it collects most of the mods where the modders explicitly want their mods to be included in other content (hence they give their permission for the most part), and thus the collection of mods can be assumed to be addable and there is a whole lot of them that in my opinion add a lot to the SP campaign experience. A full list of floris features was dumped under a spoler on page 1 (?) I think. If you're bored you can go read it, because when I did I realized just how much the modpack actually added, almost none of which was visual...

Docm Has asked for help on several occasions, all of which ended up in the "helpers" not providing much help and disappearing after slowing progress down. Modding teams can actually be a lot slower and ineffective than a single person, especially for something as vague as "add features".

The standard SP enhancements are already out there and the people who made them have explicitly said it's okay to add them to other mods... Sure hiring new people to do new things probably costs more than it grants but adding already existing stuff?

I'm no modding genius, but wouldn't including these mods at this stage not require Docm to remake L'Aigle from scratch again?

For Floris, a lot of other mods added features from that modpack late in development. For the pirates and fish mod (which I'm 95% certain won't be added at all), you might be right.

 

[Carlosdmc]

Don't think a man can do more than a group of organized men, the way of men is the way of the gang.

As jacobhinds said, it's very difficult to organize a group of people to work on a single thing, especially if they are just random people on the internet you never even met. Just because you chat with them every day, doesn't mean you really know them, how they think, how they act in certain situations, etc.

For example look at this thread now, only you and that other guy ask for floris, pirates, ships and whatnot, while the rest of us say it's a bad idea. Now lets say a guy comes to this thread as a team leader and tries to organize us so we all agree on one thing, it's almost impossible, to the point where i would say completely impossible.

It's the same thing with the modding teams, very hard to organize them all, and sooner or later they will start to disagree with each other, for whatever reason. Some will simply lose interest as i said earlier, or they promise certain things, but never deliver them. Most of them just want to be in the "credits" section, so in the end, the team falls apart.

jacobhinds tells the truth, you can count on your hand the amount of mods that have dedicated teams, majority of the mods are done by 1-2 people, and several other people who contribute an item or script, things like that...

I'm not asking for for floris, pirates, ships and whatnot like you said, that's the op I merely agreed on the fact Doc could use some assets and lines of codes here and there as he see fit, failed to comprehend what I was trying to say.

In any case that would mean you don't want ships and pirates in this mod?

Careful with the words mate, I understand what you're saying but I want to remind you both I said "organized men" never said random people picked from the forum, I'm just saying that a group of organized men will always be far more effective than one man army.

 

[CPT.Quintus]

There, we might as well give him what he wants...

 

[Hysterion]

There, we might as well give him what he wants...

Yeah i give up, it's like talking to a wall, or he is a troll and we are feeding it with fish and chips, after all he is a recruit who only registered today...