ADD NEW MOVEMENT MECHANICS(dodge/dash,low jump/jump,fast crouch/crouch & combinations)

would you like the introduction of these mechanics, maybe in the basic game in the future, or in the

  • Yes in the basic game, maybe in the future. And also in the mods (with activation/deactivation optio

    Votes: 17 15.9%
  • yes but only in the mods (with activation/deactivation option)

    Votes: 28 26.2%
  • I would like to, but not for how they are thought in the topic

    Votes: 7 6.5%
  • no, I don't want the inclusion of these mechanics, nor in the game, nor in the mods

    Votes: 55 51.4%

  • Total voters
    107

darksoulshin

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Introduction:
Bannerlord is not only a strategic game, but also one in which you must fight against 1 or more opponents using your own character.
So the heart of this game, what makes it fun but also satisfying, is deeply tied to the combat system.
The current combat system is SIMPLY INTUITIVE and INTUITIVELY SIMPLE.
1) Do you want to attack from the right? move the mouse to the right and hold the attack button to load the shot and finally release.
2) Do you want to parry an attack coming from the left? move the mouse to the left and press the button to block.
3) Do you want to perform a lunge? move the mouse back and hold the attack button to load the shot, then release.
No unnecessarily spectacular animations (for honor), no rigidity given by the search for a realism (historical also) that leads to a bulky combat system that is not based on the player's ability to be reactive and to react intuitively, but which focuses on using a series of "historical poses" which due to the long duration of the animations and the too many variety of angles from which to attack to execute them, entails a slowness which, also linked to being forced to stand on "tracks" and to coping with only one enemy at a time, makes the game not really enjoyable but should have been. (kingdom come deliverance)
If you are looking for historical realism, you need to focus on VR and the use of control systems linked to it, certainly not a joypad or mouse + keyboard.

Before getting to the heart of the matter, let's briefly summarize the combat mechanics and how they develop the entire combat (and movement) system

1) 4-way movement
2) jump
3) crouch
4) 3 directional attacks + lunge
5) directional block (3 + 1).
6) feint

These 6 game mechanics can be combined, such as the 3 and 1 which involve crouching walking.
In order to have a combat system that reflects the idea of:
easy to understand, difficult to master (not even so much given the intuitive nature of the commands you'll read in a moment)

I thought of DEEPENING some of these mechanics, maintaining the same commands.

PREMISE(X,Y,Z):

X) I will talk about mechanics that do not have recovery times chosen arbitrarily or not related to physical laws and that do not prevent, during their execution, the use of other mechanics such as those of attack.
The duration of the animations (or the number) will depend on variables such as:
- moment of inertia of the weapon with respect to the fulcrum (PG axis or shoulder, depends on the choices of the developers) (depends on the mass distribution of the weapon)
-from the twisting moment(R^F) (depends on the strength of the pg)
-maximum rotational speed (what this value must depend on must be decided by the developers ... but one could opt for proportionality with the force parameter and(optiona) inversely proportional to half the total area of the weapon used. )

That is, with the same attack, a heavy weapon with a large moment of inertia, such as a mace, at constant torque, will mean a longer time to reach the maximum speed and therefore a given position with respect to the use of the same move with a weapon as light as a knife, as you will have different angular accelerations (less for the bat and greater for the knife).
Then the time it takes to complete the animation depends on the kinetic energy that has accumulated during the previous phase of the animation, which must be dissipated with an opposite twisting moment (which is the act of stopping the rotation of the weapon).
In this way, with a single type of animation by type of weapon, you can have endless types of animations depending on the various parameters such as strength of the pg, weight of the weapon and its shape.
Y) at the most they modify the effects such as: energy released, direction of the shot(these variations with respect to the duration and type of the basic animation depend on the choices of the developers)
Z) these mechanics can therefore be combined with each other and combined with the mechanics already present (directional attack, lunge, parade with shield, directional parade, kick)

END OF THE PREMISE.


NEW 3 MECHANICS

1) SMALL DODGE and DASH (conditioned)
They should add a button that allows for short changes of movement speed in very short time intervals (clicks).
Let me be clear, not too large movements, or somersaults.

button:dash button

2 modes:
-A) hold down(DASH): run faster than usual (but you should introduce some sort of stamina, so it's up to the developers to make that choice.
maybe this stamina only concerns the speed of movement and not the number of attacks or the quality of the same.
So the problem of not wanting to introduce it would be solved
the amount of stamina could be related to the endurance parameter
-B) tap it(STEP-DODGE): go to this link to see the mechanics in detail:
NON-SPAMABLE DIRECTIONAL STEP-DODGE

Utilities (NON-SPAMABLE DIRECTIONAL STEP-DODGE):
- to approach in a sudden way
- to dodge backwards out of the reach of a weapon
- dodge a spear lunge laterally

THIS VERY IMPORTANT NOTE APPLIES TO ALL 3 MECHANICS

the difference between the two modes(A and B), in practical terms, consists in the different release time of the button (or the time it is held down) which causes the action to be carried out.
If we set for the B mode that the key hold duration should be 10 frames, if the game runs at 60 frames / s, then those 10 frames correspond to 1/6 of a second.
If you release the button, since pressing it, in less than 1/6 of a second, then you will use mode B.
If you go further, you will use the A mode.

[This method is used in smash bros for high jump and low jump. It is very intuitive, easy to learn if the number of frames is not very low (from 6 upwards) and allows you to use the same button to make two different things but involving the same action.]
Theoretically you could set various ranges of frames to have different modes of the same action (the mode number goes as n + 1 where n is the number of different frames settings).

if we set n = 3, choosing the 3 frames in which to form the three intervals, for example frames 3, 10 and 20, we will have 4 mechanics (or modes) for the same button that will develop in this way:
ex: ex: from 1 to 3 frames-> action A, from 3 to 10 frames -> action B, from 10 to 20-> action C, over 20-> action D
action or mode, a game mechanic in short.

Clearly too many ranges of frames and too many actions or modes would result in both a too high number of frames and therefore it would take too long to carry out the actions that require many button holding frames, vice versa in the case of a few frames per action would result in the difficulty of being able to really select the action you want to choose.

BUT in our case only 1 value is enough, then 2 modes, which we have called A and B.

END NOTE



2)FAST SHORT JUMP and NORMAL JUMP
The use of the fast short jump would allow you to dodge strokes that point "almost to the feet" and would be useful in the case of a fight in an area with a difference in height (such as steps or walls of different heights)

button: jump button

2 modes:
-A) held down(NORMAL JUMP): the jump is full, with its endlags due to the weight of the equipment and the athleticism of the warrior.
-B) tap it (FAST SHORT JUMP): the jump is lower and faster and it results not only to have much less end lag, but it does not interrupt the directional block, nor the attack.

Utility:
if the enemy is on the ground and we on a low wall at a height of about one meter but we must / still want to engage him in combat, we can avoid some of his movements moved at the height of the legs without suffering the strong end lag of the normal jump and therefore being able to counterattack in some way.
Ditto in the case of fighting on stairs or inclined planes.


3)QUICK CROUCHING and NORMAL CROUCHING

button:crouching button

2 modes:
-A) held down(NORMAL CROUCHING): allows you to acocate and stay crouched.
-B) tap it(QUICK CROUCHING): it allows a quick squatting and relative raising, as if you were going down to dodge.

For the two modes it is only a matter of establishing the number of frames for the activation of the tap mode (from 1 to X frames) which, once exceeded, make what was going to be a fast crouching, a total crouching (same method for fast and not fast jumping modes).

utility:
-If used during a side shot it allows you to lower yourself slightly during this step / dodge.
- in the backward dodging angle the body can be moved backwards to move the head and neck hurtbox slightly further back and lower.
- in the frontal click it can allow you to dodge any high slashes while advancing, you have a greater end lag if you don't use the lunge.
moreover, if you do not attack and hit with your own weight, you get a similar effect to kicking, so neither of you suffers a real penalty other than moving in the direction of the shot of both subjects.
If used with a raised shield, you end up further away.
If during the use of this mechanic and specifically in the crouching frontal shot you also use the skip, then you sling it on the enemy with your whole body dragging it to the ground with it (a grip).
This catch does not happen only if the enemy is parrying.
- standing still, it allows you to dodge waving blows towards the head.
 
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BlazingScribe

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Seems interesting. Continuing with the hypothetical, would AI be able to use these mechanics too? Or would these be a consequence of players pushing the limits of the game's mechanics?
 

darksoulshin

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BlazingScribe said:
Seems interesting. Continuing with the hypothetical, would AI be able to use these mechanics too? Or would these be a consequence of players pushing the limits of the game's mechanics?
Theoretically the AI can use them all.
There is only to tell him the "when" to use them.
I do not believe that the programming of their use differs much from that of the use of other mechanics.
Both in terms of singleplayer and multiplayer, the game would become very competitive.

 

dev.Floyd

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While im interested in other type of combat movements, i think, it is impossible to implement in the current engine. 
Making something like this should lead to an engine and combat system full modification.

Nevertheless, i did suggest the same in the Steam forums years ago.  In order to make battles less boring with the time. 
U see.. In Warband, at the beggining of your game, battles are fun.  But after a while of playing,  they turn very monotonous, and you end sending your troops to battle without you.
Adding some of this things should make battles more dynamic and complex as well. 

Things as roll or dash if u re not on heavy armor,  counter-attacks movements as well as combo attacks,  i dont have a formula to balance this,  but in the future on a next Mount and Blade game, this is a MUST to renew the combat system. 

How the AI could make this movements? I dont know.  But there must be a way.  Of course this will make the fight algorithm a lot more complex,  so, more resource consumimg,  but there should be a way
 

BayBear

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I voted no because I prefer simple keeping the simple, intuitive mechanics. Warband's combat system proved to be plenty deep without the inclusions of jumpy mechanics and I believe Bannerlord will sooner or later prove to be the same.

However any of the features may possibly be implemented into a future mod.
 

Lord Brutus

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I really hate to say this but I believe the mechanics are beyond the capabilities of the developers.  They have never shown anything like this.  Plus, if the player is supposed to be responsible for the mechanics, it seems a lot of micro-management.
 

Hanz

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I don't think this is viable. Considering the forumla of Mount & Blade is already good and it just needed some tweaks (like shield-bashing, etc)

If something's not broken, why fix it?
 

darksoulshin

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Have you ever played super smash bros? (one of many)
The super smash bros jump is built in the same way as the mechanics I reported above.
From 1 to 3 frames (1/20 second) of pressing the jump button the low jump is used, over 3 frames the high jump is used.
generally called "short hops" and "full hops".
You will quickly understand, if you know smash, that the frenzy of that game requires an intuitiveness of the commands that must not leave room for doubt.

Do you want to make a jump, be it low, high or medium? You have to use only one button to do it, because if you use more, and multiply these additional keys for each mechanic, you end up just confusing the keys.

"easy to understand, difficult to master" does not mean that you know how to perform the actions but you are not able to perform them, but that you know how to perform them, execute them, but bringing them to a competitive level is a completely different story.
In these mechanics there is no micromanagement and movements that are not too large or too abrupt to break the balance of play, in fact they would not actually see many differences except for particular situations in which a hop or drop allows us to dodge a lot of blows low (at the feet almost) or blows to the head.
And to dodge a lunge of launch a simple side dodge (no roll, only one side shift faster than usual and only half a meter at most).

I understand the reluctance to see changes, but here it does not move us even if we refine already present mechanics.
I mean, if you look hard, I haven't added anything new compared to before.
I pulled out additional mechanics using the same keys, so your gameplay doesn't change, because you won't have to press additional keys, but the ones you've always pressed.
But unlike before with a tap you use a faster mode, of reaction, of instinct, instead with the maintenance of the key (for more than the fixed frames) you will use a more consistent and less particular version of the same action (which is the action you have always used).
I also wrote that it can be activated and deactivated by the options, both offline singleplayer and online multiplayer, so I don't really understand reluctance.
A new game is coming out and instead of improving a combat system that is good but lacks "possibilities" that should have been there, we fossilized on the past by not adding anything.
I honestly don't understand.
 

darksoulshin

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HanzGuvenschmitz said:
I don't think this is viable. Considering the forumla of Mount & Blade is already good and it just needed some tweaks (like shield-bashing, etc)

If something's not broken, why fix it?
I think you didn't notice, maybe I expressed myself badly, but I really did what you said.
I didn't fix anything.
I used the same keys and the same mechanics to add three more, which are a faster and more situational version of the originals.
At most the only added mechanic is that of the dash, which is the prolonged version of the dodge, which in reality is only a sudden shift (but always subject to inertia, etc. ..) in one of the possible directions.
The old mechanics remain as before.
Tap is not so simple but not that difficult either.
Its being quite difficult, based on the frames chosen for it, requires a speed that is not easy to do.
On smash the 3 frames available for the tap of the button relative to the jump in order to use the short hop, consists in the pressed and release of this button in 1/20 of a second, an action that I cannot use a consistent way on the last game because I was used to the old, where the frames were 6-7 for the characters I used (heavy PCs had more frames and fewer pg).
But, as can be seen from the above, it is also quite simple (if the frames allow it, for this reason I wrote that it must be more than 5-6) to be able to carry out the desired action with consistency.
In terms of speed and time, practically nothing changes in the game.
You simply have a greater number of actions without being overwhelmed by additional keys.
 

nGabor

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I voted the third option.
I think a simple dodging mechanic would be a great addition.
For me your suggestions would be a bit too much and unnecessary. Maybe in dueling if you want to go all fancy like Oberyn Martell.

About dodging: In meele combat distance is very important. You want to avoid the enemy's weapon and a good way is being on the edge of the danger zone (weapon range), move in to attack and move out to be safe. So you need control. Adding dodging/bursting (in eight directions) would extend the possbilites. Oh and dodging left or right (aka sidestep) would not just avoid vertical or thrust attacks but would also keep you in weapon range while doing it, making it ideal fora quick riposte. As for jumping/crouching you should just step away/dodge instead as attacking with combat power while crouching/jumping is not possible (or sould not be) as you use your body to keep balance not to launch a powerful slash or thrust.

As for controls:
If I know it right you can 'jump' your horse higher speed immediately by double pressing 'W'.
Dodging could be the same on foot with 'WASD' logically.

Off topic but I would also love to see horses sidestep for double A or D and rear for double S...
 

darksoulshin

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What you suggest is already replicable by the mechanics described above.
What does "a simple dodge" mean?
how do you implement it?
I suppose: adding a key that together with the directionality of the movement allows the dodging in any direction.
But the dodge I described is just what you want.
Simply the dodge button performs this dodge only if pressed quickly (as the dodge must be fast) and is used to make a sprint for some distance in case you hold it down for more than the time you need to keep it pressed to perform the dodge.
The system shows that:
dodge + directional movement = directional evasion

-if the direction is lateral you get a side dodge (avoid vertical slashes or lunges)
-if the direction is back, get the backward dodge (get out of the enemy range).
- onwards you get a short step forward (to try to make a lunge that would not go out of reach)
-if the direction is any other axis, get the dodge in that axis (or sidestep, which is the same thing).
the animation of if is not a dodge, but as you say a shift to the side (sidestep).
But if you avoid the enemy hitboxes, then you basically dodge the hitboxes, and so I called it a dodge.

In the case of mechanics related to crouching or squatting, this can be combined with that of the sidestep to get particular dodges, which angle the body and move the hurtboxes (this would be a real dodge)
In short, for a more advanced defense.
In the utilities I have only done some examples, not all.
I have only outlined some mechanics that can be combined with each other, so I don't put any restrictive stakes.

To give you an example:
suppose that:
the sidestep is on the shift key.
squatting is on the Ctrl key.

if you want to do a simple side step backwards?
simply move backwards and quickly press shift.
the PG takes a quick step backwards but the hitboxes (head, torso and legs) remain aligned with the z axis of the pg

Do you want to dodge backwards , move the center of your pg's body backwards and move the head and torso hurtbox slightly back and down?
move backwards as before and pass your finger on shift for the sidestep and quickly move it to Ctrl for a brief moment.
the Pg not only sidestep backwards, but he lowers and brings back his head and bust hurtboxes.

Let me be clear, all this is a plus, but it is not complicated.
because if used in a simple way (if you only use the sidestep) you get the mechanic you want, but it also offers other possibilities.
It does not complicate things, because it is not necessary to use it by force, simply by an extra chance to defend yourself if you perform such a simple and intuitive combination.

Or in the case of a forward movement, it allows an extra offensive maneuver.


My system refers only to foot combat.
For horse fighting it can also be applied in part, but it must be done well, so for now let's leave the cavalry aside. For that we should also intervene on another (such as the dynamics of impacts)
 

BayBear

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I’m not saying these mechanics wouldn’t work, but at some point players shouldn’t be inundated with too many core gameplay mechanics. Having to micro-managing too many necessary mechanics goes against the spirit of fun.

Also OP, be wary of double posting. Use the edit button to add to your 1st post or risk irking the mods.
 

darksoulshin

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lolxd said:

just play for honor, tbh
congratulations on not having understood the whole intent of the mechanics.
For honor has NON-INTUITIVE mechanics and above all has an USELESS SPECTACULARITY.
I don't play for honor because it differs from mount and blade for such aspects.
Argue what these similar mechanics have to those of for honor if they are practically always the same as those of M&B but with some tweaking, given that in practice you could play as usual and that the use of additional mechanics serve only in particular situations.

I have the impression that someone has read without understanding how mechanics work.
There are no additional keys, except the sprint.
And each key has two mechanics in which 1 you use it by holding the button and the other giving it a tap.
Clearly the fastest mechanic requires tapping, ie keeping it pressed for about 1/10 of a second, conversely, its normal, slower version requires that it be held down for at least more than 1/10 of a second.

But have you ever tried smash bros and run short hop?
because the question is all here.
Perhaps you don't know how practically, with the fingers, you perform such mechanics.
watch some videos on YT writing "short hop smash 4".
I say "smash 4" and not "ultimate" because they made it more difficult by reducing the lead times.
Look and then tell me it's not easy.
For honor is unnecessarily complicated and unnecessarily and harmfully spectacular.
I avoid games like this.
 

darksoulshin

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BayBear said:
I’m not saying these mechanics wouldn’t work, but at some point players shouldn’t be inundated with too many core gameplay mechanics. Having to micro-managing too many necessary mechanics goes against the spirit of fun.

Also OP, be wary of double posting. Use the edit button to add to your 1st post or risk irking the mods.
I understand what you mean, but in the explanations of the mechanics I specifically said that these mechanics are not to be used always and in any case.
Using a normal dodge rather than combining dodge and squatting may not make much difference.
This involves pressing "shift and ctrl" consecutively in the event that these buttons were assigned the dodge / dash and squat / squatting.
The difference between one that dodges and one that dodges without falling down is that a blow given at head height does not take the first while taking the second.
But no one forces you and dodge sideways a horizontal swing moved at the height of the head, you can very well block it or dodge backwards.
In the case of lunges, the type of dodging is irrelevant, as you can well understand.
Perhaps I did not express myself well in the topic and I did not explain well the practicality of mechanical parts, which performed by hand are of an intuitive and disarming simplicity, but apparently this does not transpire from the topic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dokSPMmufgM&t=11s
This is a video on mechanics called "short hop" by super smash bros.
The short hop of smash bros is the mechanic from which I took the execution method for those of this topic.
If you have the game you should have understood what I mean.
At most, if you have a friend who owns it, go for it, play two games and let him show you the short hop (on smash ultimate it was made more difficult ... just because in previous games it was considered too easy to perform, absurd motivation in my opinion but so is)
 

FBohler

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I would totally play a mod with these features.

But I'm afraid it's too flashy to be accepted by the community in the native game.
 

darksoulshin

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FBohler said:
I would totally play a mod with these features.

But I'm afraid it's too flashy to be accepted by the community in the native game.
yes I too was afraid of this effect.
(also linked a little to the conservatism of the gaming communities in general, perhaps due to the fear of seeing the gameplay ruined, a fear that I understand)
For this I have entered several options and above all in brackets the option to activate and deactivate the mechanics for the game you are starting (as for some mods).

In hindsight I would have liked to insert in the sound a fifth answer like:
"If you don't have such mechanics in the base game or in the mods, would you like to see these mechanics in a future MOUNT AND BLADE: WARLORD?"

(mount and blade: warlord I think is a perfect title for the 3rd mount and blade, a fusion of WARband and bannerLORD)
but I don't know if voting changes are reset by changing the survey options.
 

FBohler

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darksoulshin said:
MOUNT AND BLADE: WARLORD

(mount and blade: warlord I think is a perfect title for the 3rd mount and blade, a fusion of WARband and bannerLORD)
Love your ideas! TaleWorlds take note!
 

Honved

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I would have no objection if there were options for modders to add such features, because it's pretty obvious that there's a small-to-moderate sized group who want them.  I myself have no interest in them, and do not want them in the vanilla game.
 

darksoulshin

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Honved said:
I would have no objection if there were options for modders to add such features, because it's pretty obvious that there's a small-to-moderate sized group who want them.  I myself have no interest in them, and do not want them in the vanilla game.
I appreciate the way you have expressed your thoughts.
I would say that the second answer of the survey is more suitable, even if the first answer also has the option to activate / deactivate these game mechanics.
In a competitive environment (online therefore) different rooms could be formed with different options, including the activation and deactivation of these mechanics.
So we would have all the gameplay options available.