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[Urban_Viking]

People keep on telling me that scale armor is in the game, what faction, and what is the armor called (This is MP I am talking about).

Probably one of the Celtic factions, i doubt its in MP. I have only seen it in the cheat menu and not in game yet.

 

[Yeyo]

I would like to see throwing axes. There is historical precedence for their use in Friesland (who were heavily influenced by the Franks, who have their own throwing axe) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisca

The francisca disappears from the archaeological record in the 8th century, and Viking Conquest is focused in the invasion of Great Britain by the ‘Great Heathen Army’ that began in 865 AD.

So you're saying that there was a renowned throwing axe in use in the Friesland area and England up to the 9th century. And then suddenly, everyone melted their beloved throwing axes into slag, and then randomly decided to use really similar throwing axes again in the 10th century? That's absurd.

Just because there's an archaeological gap doesn't mean there is a historical one.

No, I’m saying that in the 9th century the francisca did not existed, as it’s said even in the entry of the Wikipedia you linked. And the sagas are literary works written centuries after the Viking Age and are full of exaggerations about martial skills of the heroes. It is true in some of them there are descriptions of throwing axes, but this is not the regular development of a combat. As William R. Short wrote:

“It seems unlikely that axes were routinely thrown in fights, but in desperation, men did whatever was necessary to succeed, including throwing their axe. One example is told in chapter 33 of Harðar saga og Hólmverja. In a battle, Þorvaldr drove a spear through Sigurðr, who had been fighting with an axe. Sigurðr threw his axe at Þorvaldr, hitting him in the head. They both fell down dead. The sense of the story is that the axe was Sigurð's normal battle axe, rather than a specialized throwing axe.”

http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/viking_axe.htm

The problem of throwing an axe is you lose it and maybe you won’t recover it and, as any other weapon, axes were expensive. Not as expensive like a sword, but in this period any iron artifact was precious. On the other hand, the axes designed to be thrown have a specific morphology. The iron head is lightweight and the Francisca also has arch-shaped head to make easier to cut the target when it rotates after being thrown. The hole for the staff is not perpendicular to the head axis, so the short wooden haft doesn't hit the target, etc. And heavy broad axes only can be hurled in short distances.

 

[Yeyo]

No one ever used scale. The only thing people used scale for was the end of sleeves and the bottom of a dress type thing. That was in Germany and further east than that and never near this time period. Leather armour was never a thing as far as i know. The only people that wear leather these days are gays, some gay guy brought all his kinky leather crap into metal music and thus judas priest. Leather was used for Sheathes for swords and other things, to use it as armour would probably be a waste.

As I have previously said in another thread, several specialist in ancient warfare, like Timothy Dawson or David Nicolle, consider that in the 9th century some Frankish warrior used scale armors, as they are depicted in several Carolingian manuscripts, as the Stuttgart Psalter:

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/media/cache/manuscriptminiatures.com/original/921-28_large.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3474/3362444613_5b5a34d399.jpg

The Frankish kingdoms exported arms and armors; many Viking weapons, like the Ulfberht swords, were actually made in Frankia.

http://scholarworks.wmich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1038&context=hilltopreview

The people that make most manuscripts are monks and they know nothing about warfare, there are many manuscripts with totally impractical weapons in them that have no historical evidence of having existed. Anyway scale is stupid, you can slash upwards with a sword or axe and your weapon will slide between the scales. Unless you are talking about lamellar which is a different story.

In the Stuttgart Psalter it is possible to recognize a lot typologies of Frankish weapons, pretty well-known due the archaeology, like swords of Jan Petersen’s type K (with a pommel with five lobes), the ‘winged’ spearheads, the ‘sugar loaf’ shield boss, the trefoil brooches of the scabbards and a langseax, among others. This is not however just my personal opinion, because it is shared by a lot military historians.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3474/3362444613_5b5a34d399.jpg

In any case, scale armors were used in the Byzantine and Persian armies during the Late Antiquity and High Middle Ages, so I suppose they were not so useless in combat.

 

[dunjam]

I appreciate all of the corrections and stuff, but please guys; I said 'MP' meaning Multiplayer, the items in SP seem fine to me, but in MP, theres **** all for most factions.

 

[Grimes]

No, I’m saying that in the 9th century the francisca did not existed, as it’s said even in the entry of the Wikipedia you linked. And the sagas are literary works written centuries after the Viking Age and are full of exaggerations about martial skills of the heroes. It is true in some of them there are descriptions of throwing axes, but this is not the regular development of a combat. As William R. Short wrote:

“It seems unlikely that axes were routinely thrown in fights, but in desperation, men did whatever was necessary to succeed, including throwing their axe. One example is told in chapter 33 of Harðar saga og Hólmverja. In a battle, Þorvaldr drove a spear through Sigurðr, who had been fighting with an axe. Sigurðr threw his axe at Þorvaldr, hitting him in the head. They both fell down dead. The sense of the story is that the axe was Sigurð's normal battle axe, rather than a specialized throwing axe.”

http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/viking_axe.htm

The problem of throwing an axe is you lose it and maybe you won’t recover it and, as any other weapon, axes were expensive. Not as expensive like a sword, but in this period any iron artifact was precious. On the other hand, the axes designed to be thrown have a specific morphology. The iron head is lightweight and the Francisca also has arch-shaped head to make easier to cut the target when it rotates after being thrown. The hole for the staff is not perpendicular to the head axis, so the short wooden haft doesn't hit the target, etc. And heavy broad axes only can be hurled in short distances.

Could this not be properly represented by making some/most/maybe all 1h axes into throwing axes, but with 1 ammo? Then you'd face the same issue of losing your axe if you threw it, but having the option available in a time of desperation (or just whenever you think it'd be cool).

 

[Felkvir]

I would like to see throwing axes. There is historical precedence for their use in Friesland (who were heavily influenced by the Franks, who have their own throwing axe) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisca

The francisca disappears from the archaeological record in the 8th century, and Viking Conquest is focused in the invasion of Great Britain by the ‘Great Heathen Army’ that began in 865 AD.

So you're saying that there was a renowned throwing axe in use in the Friesland area and England up to the 9th century. And then suddenly, everyone melted their beloved throwing axes into slag, and then randomly decided to use really similar throwing axes again in the 10th century? That's absurd.

Just because there's an archaeological gap doesn't mean there is a historical one.

No, I’m saying that in the 9th century the francisca did not existed, as it’s said even in the entry of the Wikipedia you linked. And the sagas are literary works written centuries after the Viking Age and are full of exaggerations about martial skills of the heroes. It is true in some of them there are descriptions of throwing axes, but this is not the regular development of a combat. As William R. Short wrote:

“It seems unlikely that axes were routinely thrown in fights, but in desperation, men did whatever was necessary to succeed, including throwing their axe. One example is told in chapter 33 of Harðar saga og Hólmverja. In a battle, Þorvaldr drove a spear through Sigurðr, who had been fighting with an axe. Sigurðr threw his axe at Þorvaldr, hitting him in the head. They both fell down dead. The sense of the story is that the axe was Sigurð's normal battle axe, rather than a specialized throwing axe.”

http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/viking_axe.htm

The problem of throwing an axe is you lose it and maybe you won’t recover it and, as any other weapon, axes were expensive. Not as expensive like a sword, but in this period any iron artifact was precious. On the other hand, the axes designed to be thrown have a specific morphology. The iron head is lightweight and the Francisca also has arch-shaped head to make easier to cut the target when it rotates after being thrown. The hole for the staff is not perpendicular to the head axis, so the short wooden haft doesn't hit the target, etc. And heavy broad axes only can be hurled in short distances.

Yeah, i read in one of the sagas they told about a weapon that the vikings imported from the franks, which they called the Jejo. (Or Yeyo in a more modern pronounciation), supposedly it was an axe that denied it's user of any creative thinking. At all.


Derp.

 

[hrotha]

Could this not be properly represented by making some/most/maybe all 1h axes into throwing axes, but with 1 ammo? Then you'd face the same issue of losing your axe if you threw it, but having the option available in a time of desperation (or just whenever you think it'd be cool).

Every single item can be thrown as an act of desperation.

 

[Grimes]

Could this not be properly represented by making some/most/maybe all 1h axes into throwing axes, but with 1 ammo? Then you'd face the same issue of losing your axe if you threw it, but having the option available in a time of desperation (or just whenever you think it'd be cool).

Every single item can be thrown as an act of desperation.

Probably not as effectively as an axe.

 

[Bohemond Chesne]

A lot of these points regarding chucking swords extend to chucking a hand axe.


And yeah, most decent handaxes and arming spears fly really well (if not as far as a specilly made version) if you feel the need to throw them.

 

[kalarhan]

Guess you guys never saw a lightsaber throw!

 

[dunjam]

Can we keep this on topic please?

 

[jones0901]

Could this not be properly represented by making some/most/maybe all 1h axes into throwing axes, but with 1 ammo? Then you'd face the same issue of losing your axe if you threw it, but having the option available in a time of desperation (or just whenever you think it'd be cool).

Every single item can be thrown as an act of desperation.

He removed his armor, in desperation, and hurled it at the oncoming Danes.
I think Bernard Cornwall wrote that in the Saxon Stories.

 

[kalarhan]

Could this not be properly represented by making some/most/maybe all 1h axes into throwing axes, but with 1 ammo? Then you'd face the same issue of losing your axe if you threw it, but having the option available in a time of desperation (or just whenever you think it'd be cool).

Every single item can be thrown as an act of desperation.

He removed his armor, in desperation, and hurled it at the oncoming Danes.
I think Bernard Cornwall wrote that in the Saxon Stories.

Ok now I want a special skill that let me throw things. Just cut someone head off? Throw it! That metal boot? I bet it can kill someone with it too! How about those helmets? I bet they are heavy enough! To be safe just add some pointed helmets.... maybe horns????? There! Helmet + horns = throwable weapon!


Back to topic. Where is my horned helmet?

 

[dunjam]

Sarcasm much. Hah; nah, but seriously, I'd love to see some more items implemented into MP from SP, or just some more body armor/head armor to be honest. Maybe some very expensive plate greaves like in Brytenwalda.