About why lance/spear cavalry so weak in SandBox

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Notealot

Regular
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
There is a thread discussed about this issue before: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/fix-cavalry-charge.442262/

As we know, developers changed reorganizing range of cavalry in Beta e1.5.10, but it affects few.

Every reason you can found in codes.

For example, the Mount Charge Damage:
Do you found that mount charge damage in Singleplayer SandBox is lower than Multiplayer and Custom Battle?

Let's see some codes before,
1. In SandBox.SandboxAgentStatCalculateModel.UpdateHorseStats(Agent agent, AgentDrivenProperties agentDrivenProperties):void
C#:
agentDrivenProperties.MountChargeDamage = (float) mountElement.GetModifiedMountCharge(in equipmentElement2) * 0.004f;
2. In TaleWorlds.MountAndBlade.CustomBattleAgentStatCalculateModel.InitializeAgentStats(Agent agent, Equipment spawnEquipment, AgentDrivenProperties agentDrivenProperties, AgentBuildData agentBuildData):void
C#:
agentDrivenProperties.MountChargeDamage = (float) mountElement.GetModifiedMountCharge(in equipmentElement2) * 0.01f;
3. In TaleWorlds.MountAndBlade.MultiplayerAgentStatCalculateModel.InitializeHorseAgentStats(Agent agent, Equipment spawnEquipment, AgentDrivenProperties agentDrivenProperties):void
C#:
agentDrivenProperties.MountChargeDamage = (float) mountElement.GetModifiedMountCharge(in equipmentElement2) * 0.01f;

These three lines of codes are about mount charge damage calculation, the first is about Singleplayer SandBox, the second is about Custom Battle and the third is about Multiplayer.

We can find the key point after multiplication sign, it's no need to know what "f" is about, you just need to focus on the number.
In Singleplayer, the factor number is 0.004; but in Multiplayer and Custom Battle, it's 0.01.
You can understand these numbers by following this:
Mount Charge Damage = Base Damage * Factor Number
So,
In Singleplayer, the mount charge damage equals base damage multiply 0.004 and in another two modes, it's base damage multiply 0.01.
For example, the mount charge damage in Multiplayer is 18, it will be 7.2 in Singleplayer, The reason for all this is the numerical difference.

And about another issue "cavalry attack miss and don't wanna attack" is also about some factor value setting like this above.
Cavalry cannot deal enough damage as it should.



The developers focus on the behaviors simulation and don't care the actual experience caused by value of number.
Edit: I don't mean that the developers should not focus on simulation, I just means that they can improve observably something by changing value of number like this above, it doesn't matter if simulation looks like a little foolish.

Thanks to @lzh for providing information.
 
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皮w蛋

Sergeant
Yes, this question has existed for a long time. I have given feedback before, but I didn't get a specific answer

Thank Notealot for helping me organize these information posts :grin:
 

el_infante

Sergeant at Arms
WBWF&S
Are we playing the same game? Cavalry is weak in this game? Cav is so OP that infantry has no way of dealing with mass cav spam. Your only hope is to be the human player, predict the enemy cav path and welcome them with bolts and arrows.

It's necessary to upload a video of a custom battle 100 horsemen vs 100 spearmen? You know what happens? Less than 10% of casualties to horsemen. If this were not enough, horses have around 300HP per model and infantry with short weapons can't properly attack the rider, and largest weapons can't also handle attacking the rider without getting stuck into a friendly model.

If this were not enough, there is the auto-bump mechanic where if a horse touch you even at low speed, your animation attack gets interrupted. But there is more! They can bump through enemy units to the point a cavalry charge can bypass an infantry square formation like if the infantrymen were ethereal or something.

All together with the low life expectancy of an infantrymen in this game makes possible to play this game and steamroll the AI on max difficulty with only two kinds of units: archers and melee cav.
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
For example, the Mount Charge Damage:
Do you found that mount charge damage in Singleplayer is lower than Multiplayer and Custom Battle?
Yes, it was known.
The developers focus on the behaviors simulation and don't care the actual experience caused by value of number.
The actual SP experience caused by giving horses more than double the charge damage is (once you have enough enough of them) you can take weapons away from cavalry and use them like a steamroller to kill everyone on foot. It is dumb.
 

Dabos37

Sergeant Knight at Arms
Are we playing the same game? Cavalry is weak in this game? Cav is so OP that infantry has no way of dealing with mass cav spam. Your only hope is to be the human player, predict the enemy cav path and welcome them with bolts and arrows.

It's necessary to upload a video of a custom battle 100 horsemen vs 100 spearmen? You know what happens? Less than 10% of casualties to horsemen. If this were not enough, horses have around 300HP per model and infantry with short weapons can't properly attack the rider, and largest weapons can't also handle attacking the rider without getting stuck into a friendly model.

If this were not enough, there is the auto-bump mechanic where if a horse touch you even at low speed, your animation attack gets interrupted. But there is more! They can bump through enemy units to the point a cavalry charge can bypass an infantry square formation like if the infantrymen were ethereal or something.

All together with the low life expectancy of an infantrymen in this game makes possible to play this game and steamroll the AI on max difficulty with only two kinds of units: archers and melee cav.

Do not make useless custom battle test.

Yes, please upload a video showing how OP cavalry in real battles where peasants and other units with two handed weapons are able to wreck cavalry with easy.

Pick a real battle in campaign against a mixed army, and use cheats to play the same battle picking archers, infantry and cavalry, then compare.
 

el_infante

Sergeant at Arms
WBWF&S
Do not make useless custom battle test.

Yes, please upload a video showing how OP cavalry in real battles where peasants and other units with two handed weapons are able to wreck cavalry with easy.

Pick a real battle in campaign against a mixed army, and use cheats to play the same battle picking archers, infantry and cavalry, then compare.
You don't even have to do that. Join a fight between the khuzaits and any empire army and just watch from the distance without interfering :smile: Then you'll see how weak cav is in this game.
 

vonbalt

Sergeant Knight
WBNWVCM&B
Are we playing the same game? Cavalry is weak in this game?
yes, melee cavalry is weak because they miss most of their hits, this was improved a while ago because it was absolutely trash before but it's still not ideal, cav take longer to attack because of riding in and out of range so they should have more precision in their strikes to compensate.

The only reason cav isn't in a even worse state is because infantry that should counter it is even worse, spear infantry do ok-ish in 1x1 scenarios, put a few more guys and it's awful, zero coordination for formation fighting and keeping enemies at bay with their spears, it doesn't help that spear pierce damage is one of the lowest in-game, any trash sword has higher piercing than a spear which is bull**** from a realism standpoint and it directly affects the gameplay negatively.
 

el_infante

Sergeant at Arms
WBWF&S
yes, melee cavalry is weak because they miss most of their hits, this was improved a while ago because it was absolutely trash before but it's still not ideal, cav take longer to attack because of riding in and out of range so they should have more precision in their strikes to compensate.

The only reason cav isn't in a even worse state is because infantry that should counter it is even worse, spear infantry do ok-ish in 1x1 scenarios, put a few more guys and it's awful, zero coordination for formation fighting and keeping enemies at bay with their spears, it doesn't help that spear pierce damage is one of the lowest in-game, any trash sword has higher piercing than a spear which is bull**** from a realism standpoint and it directly affects the gameplay negatively.
That is true. But if cavalry is weak, and anti-cav infantry is still worse, cav still rules. The AI still doesn't know how to use cavalry other than suiciding the units against anything, but if you manage to coordinate a heavy cav melee charge against a ranged line, the kill list becomes all-green. So you can say cav is in a bad state, and I agree. But it's everything but weak.
 

Dabos37

Sergeant Knight at Arms
You don't even have to do that. Join a fight between the khuzaits and any empire army and just watch from the distance without interfering :smile: Then you'll see how weak cav is in this game.
Well, I was talking about melee cavalry. Horse archers are in the same boat as archers, they currently kill everything with easy.
 

Dabos37

Sergeant Knight at Arms
That is true. But if cavalry is weak, and anti-cav infantry is still worse, cav still rules. The AI still doesn't know how to use cavalry other than suiciding the units against anything, but if you manage to coordinate a heavy cav melee charge against a ranged line, the kill list becomes all-green. So you can say cav is in a bad state, and I agree. But it's everything but weak.
Disagree, cavalry does not rules at all. Missile units are by far the most effective kind of units. Take some Fians or even Palatine Guard or Master Archers, and you are going to wreck the AI easily every battle without getting losses.
 

el_infante

Sergeant at Arms
WBWF&S
Disagree, cavalry does not rules at all. Missile units are by far the most effective kind of units. Take some Fians or even Palatine Guard or Master Archers, and you are going to wreck the AI easily every battle without getting losses.
Missile units are strong when YOU as the player control them. Give the same player an army with good amounts of heavy cav and you can wreck the AI ranged army with very few losses. This of course depends on terrain, open battles being ideal. I've playing cavalry armies since the release, mostly khuzaits, aserai and vlandians. And the AI have no chance against a cav army, specially if it's a human player.

It's buggy on the hands of the AI? Yes. They have problems and I hope it gets fixed. But it's not weak. There are better cav units than others, I prefer the vlandian cav over any other kind of spear cav, but it's just a matter of taste.

One of the arguments is that melee cav have a hard time fighting when they get stuck. The problem is that shock cavalry never by any reason should engage in close melee combat. That is a poor AI design. The should charge, regroup and then charge again. But in the hands of the AI they die. It's like giving a monkey a machinegun and claiming machine guns are innacurate. The problem here is the monkey (AI).
 

vonbalt

Sergeant Knight
WBNWVCM&B
That is true. But if cavalry is weak, and anti-cav infantry is still worse, cav still rules. The AI still doesn't know how to use cavalry other than suiciding the units against anything, but if you manage to coordinate a heavy cav melee charge against a ranged line, the kill list becomes all-green. So you can say cav is in a bad state, and I agree. But it's everything but weak.
yeah the main problem seems to be AI here, i've run a few battles to test and in general all kinds of troops do much better on 1x1 but when placed in formation they get dumb cause they don't know how to use teamwork (the main strength of a formation), it's like they are only keeping in line but without knowing why the sergeant is shouting at them to stay close together.

Ranged troops (inf or cav) seem to be dominating because they hit hard, armor is weak and they have less AI problems but get close to them and they get dumb aswell.
 

Dabos37

Sergeant Knight at Arms
Missile units are strong when YOU as the player control them. Give the same player an army with good amounts of heavy cav and you can wreck the AI ranged army with very few losses. This of course depends on terrain, open battles being ideal. I've playing cavalry armies since the release, mostly khuzaits, aserai and vlandians. And the AI have no chance against a cav army, specially if it's a human player.

It's buggy on the hands of the AI? Yes. They have problems and I hope it gets fixed. But it's not weak. There are better cav units than others, I prefer the vlandian cav over any other kind of spear cav, but it's just a matter of taste.

One of the arguments is that melee cav have a hard time fighting when they get stuck. The problem is that shock cavalry never by any reason should engage in close melee combat. That is a poor AI design. The should charge, regroup and then charge again. But in the hands of the AI they die. It's like giving a monkey a machinegun and claiming machine guns are innacurate. The problem here is the monkey (AI).

Disagree, cavalry in the player’s hands is not great while archers in player’s hands are simply insanely strong. Please show me how you destroy the AI using a full melee cavalry army in a balanced battle (50/50 strength bar). I am pretty sure that your are going to get a lot of losses in that battle, the AI will camp on a hill and you are going to have a really hard time (just to clarify, I am ok with that and full cavalry armies should not be as OP as they are in Warband). Then share with me your save game, and I can easily show you how I can win the same battle with an archers army with pretty low or zero losses.

You just have to find a battle against a decent enemy lord, and use cheats to replace your army and test and compare.
 

Notealot

Regular
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
The problem may not be easily solved by changing these numbers, but at least it is a temporary solution.

yeah the main problem seems to be AI here,
I don't mean that the developers should not focus on simulation, I just means that they can observably improve something by changing another value of number like this above, it doesn't matter if simulation looks like a little foolish.

Are we playing the same game? Cavalry is weak in this game?
The actual SP experience caused by giving horses more than double the charge damage is (once you have enough enough of them) you can take weapons away from cavalry and use them like a steamroller to kill everyone on foot. It is dumb.
Melee (lance/spear) cavalry is the same expensive as ranged cavalry, but there is a gap in the effectiveness of their killing. Melee cavalry is more expensive than footmen, it's no need to keep totally balanced between cavalry and infantry.
The Captain mode in Multiplayer uses the double mount damage than SandBox, do you still think it's steamroller?

Lance/Spear cavalry hit the infantry it was like sliding through, so I believe mount charge damage is not enough in SandBox, at least it should keep the same as in Custom Battle.

About lance/spear cavalry's killing efficiency, the lance/spear hit getting miss is also can be improve by changing some value of number. As we know, reorganizing need to spend time, but for exchanging, the killing efficiency in every charge should be increased.
 
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Are we playing the same game? Cavalry is weak in this game? Cav is so OP that infantry has no way of dealing with mass cav spam.
Cav is weak because it misses it's attacks often and takes speed boosted damage from moving toward enemies. Infantry is actually pretty good at landing blows on attacking Cavalry, even recruit will KO an Elite Cataphract because if hit them in the foot with the Cataphract's speed used against it . Infantry in general is very vulnerable too, but that's another issue.

Do not make useless custom battle test.
@el_infante I second this, start a campaign and go recruit actual in game cav units (not Horse archers) and see how you feel about thier performance. Do they die too looters very often while leveling up? When you charge 50 of them into an enemy, do 20 of them die? How do you feel about you investment into them when they die so easily?

That is true. But if cavalry is weak, and anti-cav infantry is still worse, cav still rules.
There are no anti-Cav units. This isn't fire emblem, everything kills everything. Ranged units will massacre everything in front of them. There are no "counters" in this game.
 

el_infante

Sergeant at Arms
WBWF&S
Cav is weak because it misses it's attacks often and takes speed boosted damage from moving toward enemies. Infantry is actually pretty good at landing blows on attacking Cavalry, even recruit will KO an Elite Cataphract because if hit them in the foot with the Cataphract's speed used against it . Infantry in general is very vulnerable too, but that's another issue.


@el_infante I second this, start a campaign and go recruit actual in game cav units (not Horse archers) and see how you feel about thier performance. Do they die too looters very often while leveling up? When you charge 50 of them into an enemy, do 20 of them die? How do you feel about you investment into them when they die so easily?


There are no anti-Cav units. This isn't fire emblem, everything kills everything. Ranged units will massacre everything in front of them. There are no "counters" in this game.
I'm starting a Vlandian campaign. If I find a good battle to record i'll post it.

If a recruit kill a charging cav, it's because armor does nothing, but I noticed that they may have tweaked armor dmg reduction a bit in the beta version. You hit the jackpot with the ranged units. "In front of them". You never by any reason should be charging archers from the front. While they are busy shooting your infantry this is the time to skein them through the entire flank, then do the same from the opposite side. Nothing is free of casualties, cav still die but in my experience they do a pretty good job when micromanaged. The investment on cav is always worth it.

And if there is no anti-cav units it's because spearmen are basically useless. This is not an user fault, but a poor dev design flaw.
 
Nothing is free of casualties
Nope. I do massive victories with zero losses all the time. If I invest a warhorse into a unit it's going to last a long time.

cav still die but in my experience they do a pretty good job when micromanaged.
They can be used effectively but that doesn't make them "Good" or "worth a warhorse" I use them as you do but only prisoners or low tier (pre war horse) recruits. I also put them in SW in front of ranged an that is very useful as a defense.

The investment on cav is always worth it.
I disagree because every horse and warhorse could become a much better horse archer instead who would kill 100X more enemies before dying. Most Khan's Guards will last me 3 decades... actually I guess that the longest I've played, they'll probably out live my character.
 
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