About the bow..

[Crax]

So after playing a bit with it, I'd like to talk about it... I'm not trying to say I have reason and that you should change it the way I like, I'm just curious to see what you have to answer to the few points I'm making. Sorry if it's not very clear for any of you cause english isn't my primary language but I think it's not too hard to understand.

Anyway devs made the bow very inacurate under the following reason I quoted from nooser :

(This was exactly the aim of this downgrade of bows. How many people do you think are able to shoot an arrow over 300m distance and hit dead eye center 10 times out of 10? You´re one of these people who´re spoiled by taleworlds snipermachinegunbows.)

In my opinion the fun aspect was not considered, which is more important than the realisitic aspect in a game.  I was very surprised when I first heard some people talking of the  "snipermachinegunbows" overpoweredness. I used to cut trough the whole castle army with my 2-hander ruby sword and one-shot every thing.... I mean that may looks like it's overpowered but it's not, you're a hero in this mod and you need to be able to make a difference in a battle. Yes you can always rely on your commander, formation and different mix of unit to win fight, but that's another playstyle (not saying I'm not using this at all) but that I'm not a foot commander type of player, I like to be in the action and make a difference by killing the most dangerous target myself). To get to this stage of "snipermachinegunbows" it takes lot of time anyway, and even if you we're to hit 100% of your target on your way leveling up to that stage, it won't be that much of an easy path seeing how ridiculous is the damage on the bow you get before the PD6 ones... then when you reach the stage of one shotting everything at 300 meters, you still have to aim at moving target, around shield and you have a limited amount of kill with the number of arrow you cary. Anyway I tried to play as it is right now and I can tell you bow are ridiculously weak in the begining of the game even damagewise... if you manage to hit a target with some luck you'll score from 0 to 10 damage. Yeah I leveled it to the PD 10 and above 300 skill in MB 3.0 but I don't see why all the pain before that point is necessary ( I mean you can't kill stuff at all before that point and when you reach it, you see that it was not worth it cause I could kill much more using a 2 hander or 1 hander with a shield, throwing, crossbow, ect.. plus you have to spend an extra  10 point in PD to hit anything and another at least 6 in riding archery if you're mounted).

So yeah I know I can modify the item myself but breaking the way the computer we're balanced around those items is not interesting for a long game. as nooser say : (All the AI units will gain sniperscope precison too (too?). On top of their high arrow proficiency. This will upset game balance and be the cause of much mischief fun especially against archer heavy nations like D´Shar or Ravenstern.)

Also I don't know why pendor army and fierdsvain have bowyer at all as they can't kill anything with them anyway. making the grey archer noble was not necessary. a better way to keep the grey archer (only decent archer of pendor army) available would have been to make silvermist from pendor foot knight.

So tell me what you think.

 

[froggyluv]

I played extensively as a Pendor-only line with all difficulties on high and fared very well with an army made up of majority Armored Pendor Bowman.

 

[Griefer]

The first and foremost problem isn't player ability but NPC ability. Prior to reducing bow accuracy combat was 100% about archers. They accounted for about 75% of the kills in combat and an army with less than 50% archers was at a huge disadvantage. Sieges were more or less impossible as the defenders would endlessly mow the attackers as they approached. With the increased range of bows this problem was even worse as two armies, one of them with 100 archers and one of them with 100 cavalry would involve all the cavalry troops being wiped out before they were even close to the archers. Infantry, archers and cavalry all have their strengths and balances. Archers, Pendor or otherwise, are exceptionally deadly. They just need managed effectively. I know that Froggy has absolutely owned larger, stronger armies with a pure Pendor army with careful use of archers and froggy plays at something like 150%+ difficulty.

The second problem is game balance for all players. If one particular play style involves the player being able to just headshot kill any NPC he sees from literally as far away as he can see them with little if any risk for himself or allows the player to just kill as many siege defenders or attackers as he has arrows in his quiver, once again with minimal comparative risk, it can be frustrating to play any other way.

The third problem is the realism gap. Bows are not guns. They are not that accurate. Archers on a battlefield are most dangerous in large numbers firing in volleys to cover up the lack of accuracy. A good commander knows to have them hold fire until the enemy is at the most effective range.

Finally it comes back again to sieges. Both attacking and defending. Go ahead, try to take a castle or city. It's already a brutal bloodbath. If archers are more accurate, NPC and PC, sieges would degrade into an archer-battle.

I empathize with you. You have a particular play style that you enjoy. I'm all for that and want you to be able to enjoy it. I can say that there are some bows, ones only the player is going to field, that didn't get an accuracy nerf. The difference in killing someone with a melee weapon and a bow however is risk vs reward. Yes, a good Pendor Greatsword will mow people down almost as fast as you can swing by the time you're about level 15. You are however in mortal risk of falling to the exact same thing. Archery is deadly at range, crossbows balanced by the stop and load delay and bows by making them less than perfectly accurate. Aim for center mass though and you'll still be able to do damage. Just don't expect to count each arrow in your quiver as one certain enemy kill. Not until you're around level 30 or so.

 

[noosers]

Early grind is necessary. If bows were as accurate as they used to be (and you should have seen what I had ORIGINALLY in mind with them) it was a gread disadvantage against anyone else not playing a horsearcher (easiest way to play MnB) or foot archer.

However, as you noticed, the greatest difference is at early levels. But this used to be the same with the pre 3.0 archery. You didn´t start to roll before you hit about 250 archery proficiency and you don´t start to roll before 250 archery skill now.

This means, to become effective as archer you´ll have to become a dedicated one and that´s the whole point about it. If you pick all the archery enhancing prequisites, you´ll come out of the character cration with a high enough weapon proficiency and good enough powerdraw to see a difference.

Aside from that, you can´t kill stuff with a sword or axe in one go as well so why should you be able to do so with an arrow?

The outrageous and scandalous downgrade of archery accuracy (and we´re purely speaking of bow accuracy here!) has been tested toroughly and been discussed during betatesting 3.0 with some quite dedicated and competent archery players and they all liked it.

If you realize you can´t headshot over half the map anymore at a player level of 5 but you´ll have to aim for the horse or largest target you´ll greatly enhance your fun moment again and you´ll realize  the thrill of hit or miss at larger ranges.

Archers are just as deadly at they used to be at close range and their inaccuracy at long range is just fine. And trust me, I´ve gotten the odd unexpected headshot (because that damn skirmisher isn´t hitting a barn door at all) often enough to still curse them. Yet it opened up the spice.

All archer armies were totally overpowered. Horse Archers were the demi gods of the battlefield early on till endgame.

Fierdsvain Archers are still strong in a defensive position close range and have one of the best melee options. However, if you prefer to focus on excellent archers, stick with Sarleon or Ravenstern. Fierdsvain never ever had good archers, this hasn´t changed from 1.X, so you´re bit late to realize that one.

The nobles are the way SD wanted them to have, he overruled our concerns there and it´s the way he visioned.

You should however - if you look it up in the forge and follow the instrucints and advice there carefully - be able to meddle with the occult and tweak the trooptree in your preferred way.

Still, since you´re the only one yet to complain about it I just assume you´re a bit annoyed and frustrated due to some very epic vaseline moments. Starting a new game when you were accustomed to an highend character is one of these.

I´m convinced that you´ll get accustomed to it pretty sure and pretty fast and start enjoying it instead of mourning the loss of sniper accuracy.

If you want to read more about it, please try to look it up via the search function Crax as it could have made quite a fuss back when 3.0 was released and if it was, detailed response was given to it for sure.

I just want to tell you once more that archery downgrade was discussed and tested pretty long and welcomed - though firstly as a nasty - but afterwards as a pretty reasonable surprise. All the hardcore archers said it made much more sense and not that much difference if you were a dedicated archer and that was the aim.

Dedicated Archers needed an advantage over casual archers and the AI machinegun archer owning the whole map units needed to be taken care off.

So if you leave your annoying concern (which will leave once you hit 250+ archery proficiency and PD +4 for your bow) behind and look at the greater picture you´ll realize the reason behind it and hopefully appreciate it a bit more.

If not you´re still able to personalize your game to your taste - at own risk.

 

[burnbaby]

Agree on all nosers wrote, you still can be riding ,,god of war" on noldor spirit horse with ruby bow and even make most of  companions the same way, but it take a very long time to make it happend, thats why its ok they way it is. For early game raping you can try ,,crossbow foot squad" to snipe down everything on your way =) 

 

[Hotspur]

Considering that I just watched an outnumbered Sally lord all but eviscerate a Fierd army in PoP-WB using a reverse-slope defense with armored bowmen, I shudder to think what they would be like under Native conditions. It was only my timely intervention that prevented a complete rout, and that was possible because of the absurd amount of time I've poured into my horse archer: level 50 with an archery score over 600.

If you're worried about upsetting game balance, you could do a little eldritch sorcery and increase the accuracy of the runed bows. Given the hoops you have to jump through to get one (or divine intervention), one could perhaps be forgiven for thinking that your Magical Bow of Ultimate Awesomeness should be more accurate than ones carried by pointy-eared leaf eaters. But that's just me.

I'm really looking forward to seeing Vicky at work on a Raven/Sally engagement.

 

[nickdean10]

Well heres this for 3.0, I was able to get only ravenstern rangers, thats only troop I got, and I was a foot bowman as well, and all companions were heavy cavalry to pin the enemy when they got half way. Lets just say that I lost a troop or two every couple lord battles... And don't even talk about once you get Silvermist Rangers, thats just overkill. I was able to take the 4/5 of the map in 1 campaign in about 50 game days. So trust me, archery is still OP, and forever will be. So truly, it must be nerfed AGAIN, not buffed, cause as it is, archery is "Easy Mode" in this game, and its tempting not to abuse it.

 

[Shapic]

I was very surprised when I first heard some people talking of the  "snipermachinegunbows" overpoweredness.

Looks like you never played tournament against few hero adveturers with bows. I odn't know, how I can kill them with melee weapon on foot. If the bows had full acuracy, it would be just impossible.

 

[Griefer]

Sarleon vs Ravenstern battle: Had one just the other day for testing. Ulric and one of his lacky lords totaling about 380 troops while I was packing about 350 Rangers, Kiergard and some mixed troops all watched over by about 30 Knights of the Raven Spear (also known as 'the reason I spend 200 game days trying to take Poinsbruk'). We both jockeyed for position for a bit trying to set our archers up in the most advantageous place. I had a bunch of Ravenstern Horsemen and Mounted Rangers who were nimble but no match in a frontal charge against the wall of Sarleon Knights and Knights of the Lion that kept patrolling the Sarleon line.

Sarleon Armored bowmen are tough but not quite as accurate as the Ravenstern Rangers, so I tried to keep my distance. You need to be cautious with those Armored Longbowmen, they're actually excellent infantry as well. You try and ride them down with light cavalry you'll be in for a rude and painful surprise. I'm getting the advantage of the Sarleon forces, watching them slowly close with us and positioning my cavalry for when the big battle stops. Then... POW!

But not a good 'POW'. The miserable mustachioed ponces snuck their cavalry back around behind a hill and have charged right up my right flank of archers and are decimating my Ranger line! I'm all the way off the left flank with my cavalry and had positioned my infantry a ways up my left flank as well. I ordered my archers to fall back a bunch of times, trying to pull them out of the jumbled horde of Sarleon Knights and clear me a straight path to charge my cavalry down into them. We hit them flat-footed and couched down a whole mess of them and I'd ordered my infantry to follow me as well. Right after the charge I ordered my cavalry to fall back as well, clearing the way for my Kierguard to get in among them and do some real harm. We ate a big chunk but the Sarleon Knights withdrew back to their own line....

Which was now right on top of us and my forces were in disarray. I ordered my cavalry to charge, pulled my archers back and formed up my remaining infantry so I could put them in ranks before my archers. I lost the bulk of my cavalry but held the line until my foot troops could reform. I jerked my cavalry back out, what little remained, and told my Rangers to open fire again. It was quite satisfying.

A LOT of give and take. I have my battlesizer around 400 and in huge battles like this Vicky really, really shines. I won but lost over 1/2 my troops and with over 80% wounded. Sir Jocelyn gave me his speech about battles always being a bloodbath. I told him to blame Treebeard.

The VI is decent in the 100-200 troop size range and just amazing in the 250+ range with a big battlesizer setting. If you can get your system to manage it I can say it's like playing Rome Total War in first person.

 

[Nocturno]

I was very surprised when I first heard some people talking of the  "snipermachinegunbows" overpoweredness.

Looks like you never played tournament against few hero adveturers with bows. I odn't know, how I can kill them with melee weapon on foot. If the bows had full acuracy, it would be just impossible.

Obviously u dont know how
"impossible" is not a word for me.
there's a time between bowman prepares bow and aims and then shoot and a time taken by the flying arrow.
Step aside, slide. that's it walk right and as soon as he fires step left, and so on.
after several shots he will start to close in, keep same patern but sharper eye as time gaps are shorter.
When close enough close in maybe take an arrow or two but you will split his head in no time.
Done it many many times.

As for the bows in pop 3.1 seems entirely fair as they are supposed to work.
You really have to dedicate to be an archer.
The ruby bow is mastered around 300+ or so skill points and seems good enough to me.
is the top-notch bow, what do you expect, being a n00b in life and master that bow straight away?

I have about 480+ in bow and never there is a thing as 100% headshots kills, mind i frecuently bring down guys galloping furiously at mid ranges, and with many different angles and speed.

I use only a bow to play, maybe a lance/2h saber to complement.
but, as noosers, just said, you HAVE to be a dedicated archer in order to reach the skill to make it effective, as with any other weapon, dont you agree?
Griefer says some interesting things bout archery too.

Bad thing perhaps, or at least confusing to some, is ruby bow is given pretty early in game, many a time, and lvl-ing up to bow=7 just wont make you shoot that thing accurately.

Maybe a good rule, many a time already mentioned here, is to change bows progressively, so you can keep a decent accuracy, or as good as can be expected, and the best arrows you can afford.
Maybe later you switch for weaker arrows as your damage is already good and prefer to keep more projectiles at hand.

but is a long way to the top (if u wanna rock 'n roll)

 

[Fawzia dokhtar-i-Sanjar]

Griefer - "I told him to blame Treebeard."

Put the blame where it belongs, on lovely little Vicky!

The Dev Team spent vast amounts of time balancing the bows, crossbows for range, accuracy, armor penetration, etc. to try and make them realistic, as well as on balancing the archers and crossbowmen themselves.  Don't expect yourself or your troops to be any good with bow or crossbow until they have the higher skills in archery, horse archery or crossbows plus power draw.

In Warband, the bows and crossbows were ludicrously overpowered and the Dev Team has eliminated any possbility that you could laser-strafe an enemy around corners from half a mile away and kill him with one shot.  Sorry, but that part of the game is now properly balanced, unlike Warband.

Just now, however, if you have a lot of archers, you have a decided advantage in the game.  (Especially if they are Adventurers or Hero Adventurers, whose other melee skills are well known.)

 

[Fawzia dokhtar-i-Sanjar]

You are not supposed to kill your opponents in tournaments.

 

[Crax]

well I agree with most of what have been said. The difference with my opinion is

- kind of boring that you need 250 skill before being able to kill any more than 5 oponents per battle with a bow, I mean in the early game you need to score a hit with at least 5 arrows to kill a single one of the weakest opponent, and to land those 5 arrow you have to throw around 15 of them and pray.

-Mounted archer is not at all the most powerfull character in my opinion, even before the nerf I only used it as a secondary weapon to kill anoying fleeing horse archer. I dont know if I'm alone to decimate more than half an army in a siege with a 2 hander?,much more powerfull than what a quiver of 40 arrow can do even if you one shit kill (rofl decided not to remove the misstype there) with each arrow, which makes the painfull grind not worth it at all. It's also much easier for me to kill a bunch of fleeing knight with my 2 hander ruby sword and fast horse, than with a ruby bow. I should add that all the way to that point of two-handed sword ownage, I can make a good difference in earlier fight even with the weakest 2 hander, as opposed to bow where I'm lucky if I can kill a single one before my army kill them all. I mean to get my bow lvl up I have to leave my army holding at the start and rush at the ennemy, shoot all my arrow, kill up to 5 in the process, then call my army to finish the job. How fun/realistic is that?

Just to make my point a bit more clear, never said I should be able to master ruby bow before PD10 300skill, just saying the path up to that point should not limit you to 5 kill per battle IF you're lucky.
by the way I have played at least 5 game of 300-600 days and tried different build I'm not a noob of pendor and I'm not the kind to like something too easy, but I'm just saying sometime harder doesn't mean funnier.

But anyway I understand it was needed for the npc and to balance what kind of army the player is fielding, I'm probably one of the few that almost never used archer in my army, I always had an army of cavalry mostly and later in the game a mix of noldor, knight chapter troops and top end random unit of different army which we're powerfull enough for not playing with archer. Killing the whole ennemy's army without a lost sounds more like what would happen for me when I field around 100 honor knight and flank their poor defensless archer/foot soldier before they can throw an arrow my way, then I just need to clean the few anoying fleeing knight. Less of a problem since 3.0 where lords army are much more powerfull and it seems that our friend vicky will help balancing both how you see archer as op and how I see cavalry as the most powerfull. I don't see the need of making any bow that is not a ruby bow useless, except maybe for the archer's army commander type of game you all seems to be playing.

anyway thanks for the reply I understand a bit more the view of the developper behind the idea, which is good cause I don't have access to the private discussion you had on devs forums.

 

[Fawzia dokhtar-i-Sanjar]

We know you are not at all a n00b, Crax - you've been playing PoP a long time.  You are not the only one who does not collect archers all the time!  I only recruit and train them preparatory to garrisoning a castle or town.  The only mounted archers I use are the HA and A ones.

 

[Crax]

You are not the only one who does not collect archers all the time!  I only recruit and train them preparatory to garrisoning a castle or town.  The only mounted archers I use are the HA and A ones.

If that was a facebook comment I would hit the "like this" button. Thumbs up

 

[Nocturno]

well I agree with most of what have been said. The difference with my opinion is

- kind of boring that you need 250 skill before being able to kill any more than 5 oponents per battle with a bow, I mean in the early game you need to score a hit with at least 5 arrows to kill a single one of the weakest opponent, and to land those 5 arrow you have to throw around 15 of them and pray.

oooo but i dont kill 5 opponents in battle @ beginning of game, your friend, Chest, is there. 
Take for example, also already said, the Demonic Magnii, I have to replenish arrows always.
Before 250 skill i chose an apropiate bow, usually i kill a third or half the army, or so.
Is a matter of mental stance . lol

-Mounted archer is not at all the most powerfull character in my opinion, even before the nerf I only used it as a secondary weapon to kill anoying fleeing horse archer. I dont know if I'm alone to decimate more than half an army in a siege with a 2 hander?,much more powerfull than what a quiver of 40 arrow can do even if you one shit kill (rofl decided not to remove the misstype there) with each arrow, which makes the painfull grind not worth it at all. It's also much easier for me to kill a bunch of fleeing knight with my 2 hander ruby sword and fast horse, than with a ruby bow. I should add that all the way to that point of two-handed sword ownage, I can make a good difference in earlier fight even with the weakest 2 hander, as opposed to bow where I'm lucky if I can kill a single one before my army kill them all. I mean to get my bow lvl up I have to leave my army holding at the start and rush at the ennemy, shoot all my arrow, kill up to 5 in the process, then call my army to finish the job. How fun/realistic is that?

Again, obviously ur not a pure archer, it's ok.
As for fleeing whatever, horses in the end of battle are somehow damaged,
most likely, and opponent's too, for that matter. Easy to bring them down.
Or call your chasing spreaded army to hold and the fleeing come after, you just couch-lance them down.
Easy.
As for fun/realistic, well depends on many personal things on the first, and the limitations of game/seriousness taken playing , then i guess with, say 1866, you'll pull ur hairs off by un-realistic behaviour of npc with firing weapons, say nothing of horse-circling thing. But 1866 is bunch of fun too.

Just to make my point a bit more clear, never said I should be able to master ruby bow before PD10 300skill, just saying the path up to that point should not limit you to 5 kill per battle IF you're lucky.
by the way I have played at least 5 game of 300-600 days and tried different build I'm not a noob of pendor and I'm not the kind to like something too easy, but I'm just saying sometime harder doesn't mean funnier.

Nobody, at least not me said that you said that "able to master..." and am not lucky (well, yes i am LOL).
That is your case ---> prefering other choices than bow (perhaps in the beginning)
I meant we all are n00bs as game starts, thats it, within a new game.
We all start with same n00bish-ish skill points ans stats and are sloppy,
slow and likely able to be killed by almost anyone around.
Didnt meant any personal offence, just the skill you (and everyone of us, oh well, cheaters and char importers are included out) start with and we have to face and live with (for a while, in the game only)


But anyway I understand it was needed for the npc and to balance what kind of army the player is fielding, I'm probably one of the few that almost never used archer in my army, I always had an army of cavalry mostly and later in the game a mix of noldor, knight chapter troops and top end random unit of different army which we're powerfull enough for not playing with archer. Killing the whole ennemy's army without a lost sounds more like what would happen for me when I field around 100 honor knight and flank their poor defensless archer/foot soldier before they can throw an arrow my way, then I just need to clean the few anoying fleeing knight. Less of a problem since 3.0 where lords army are much more powerfull and it seems that our friend vicky will help balancing both how you see archer as op and how I see cavalry as the most powerfull. I don't see the need of making any bow that is not a ruby bow useless, except maybe for the archer's army commander type of game you all seems to be playing.

The defenseless archers are sometimes dhaja, kajahrs and omer seekers, and oc,
you have the nice, fat Jatu army to deal with, specially when you are outnumbered,
and sieges to d'shar towns. Then I LOVE to be an archer and have archers around.

anyway thanks for the reply I understand a bit more the view of the developper behind the idea, which is good cause I don't have access to the private discussion you had on devs forums.

Ammm... that's it basically
cheers

p.s.: remember , NO offense towards your person
Edited p.s.2: ooo i almost forgot ---> you can find quivers in battle ! sppse that is realistic enough 

 

[Sigil Runestone]

Greifer...

for my personal comparison, what are your PC's specs?

 

[Griefer]

My system specs -
AMD Athlon II X4 620 processor
16 GB Ram
Win 7 64 bit

NVIDIA GeForce GTS 250 1GB

DX 9
Corpses 20
Ragdolls 5
Damage all at normal
All AI good
Speed faster
Battlsizer 406
Shadows - ultra high
Everything else at max except:
Grass density 50%
Tree fade distance 46%
All boxes checked
Performance 100%

 

[noosers]

- kind of boring that you need 250 skill before being able to kill any more than 5 oponents per battle with a bow, I mean in the early game you need to score a hit with at least 5 arrows to kill a single one of the weakest opponent, and to land those 5 arrow you have to throw around 15 of them and pray.

First of all Crax, noone blamed you of beeing a n00b and if he did he better apologized. I just hate that word. Unexperienced players are here to ask for help and guidance and shouldn´t be ridiculed by default. Just be ensured the reasons why archery was downgraded and the effectivity treshold increased was well thought and tested.

Weapon Master is your friend there. High weapon master skill will enable you to raise your proficiency really fast as the further you´re away from the maximum proficiency granted by the weapon master skill the more proficiency points you get per successful hit.

That´s the reason why you´ll e.g get like +12 polearm proficiency early on but only +1 or +2 in late game for the same evil headcouch.
The same applies for achery. Ideally, you join a siege defense with a bow/crossbow and three quivers. Given high enough weapon master skill you can easily grind 50+ proficiency out of battle for all the easy potshots from barbican and gate towers.

Exploiting lame game mechanics and jumping over the entry point, off the wall, running up the stairs and hacking anything down with your ruby two hander hasn´t worked for me in 3.01 at all because the 50 defenders hacked, shot, threw, stabbed or stoned me immediately and shouldn´t be taken as an example of combat mechanics. The attention span of the AI is unfortunately small enough to totally neglect the one moron in their backs but fix on the 1 enemy trying to get over the ladder - unless you´re on the wrong side of the wall and the next reinforcement wave hacks you to pieces.

And even then, when you´re standing right on the walls and take care of the defenders you´re not safe of stray arrows, bolts or throwing spears.

As for your crossbow in tournaments comment - the equipment used there is the native weapons and those weren´t tweaked at all but kept untouched. As I don´t know wether or not powerdraw affects crossbow damage now in WB I´ll have to ask you to complain somewhere else and to get your cudgel out or keep your distance.

@Nocturno:
Strafing and dodging usually gets harder the closer you get towards your target. And Adventurers and Hero Adventurers are just a pain in the ass, especially if they lose their arrow the second before you bash them into oblivion.

 

[Crax]

Nooser...

I'm not the one who said anything about crossbow in tournament and sorry if you take this thread personally, I only used your quote because they we're the one I've just read before doing this thread and they we're explaining correctly anything that's been said about the bow nerf up to now.

I don't really feel like my point has been totally understood but whatever I got the explanation I came for. I'm saying that having a low skill with other weapon than a bow allow you to effectively kill the weakest opponent and scaling correctly with the difficulty of ennemy in the game but the bow don't. It's like if you we're playing an RPG, and the warrior lvl 1 could kill an ennemy lvl 1 normaly in solo and maybe even up to ennemy lvl 3 and you made the hunter needing a full raid party behind a castle wall to get past lvl 1 because of his inability to kill anything his own lvl effectively until he reach the only effective runed weapon in the late game. Basicly you made the bow an endgame weapon that is totally useless for a non-dedicated archer who don't really care about being a legolas 3 quiver snipermachinebowgunrubyomg.

Only reason I'm saying that I'm not a noob in my post is because some of the reply, not only yours, sounded like they are explaining stuff to new a player that need tricks to be good with bow, I'm just saying I'm not new and probably killed more with a bow than most people here. Yeah I know what is the weapon master skill too... I don't think I'm gonna put all my point in master weapon skill at the begining only to have a chance of leveling the bow, I don't need to do that for any other weapon, I usually start of my game with 2 master weap skill and goes up from there when other more important skill have been upgraded too.

As I already said too, I'm not complaining or asking for any change in the mod, it's ok really I didn't made the game and I'll play it as it is, If I want to use a bow as secondary weapon don't worry I know how to do it, but I don't think I will because of the low reward/time invested ratio. I'll probably just pick the throwing weap as my ranged skill. And I noticed indeed that the castle we're harder to conquer because they have all been balanced around the legolas archer's army commander type of game, so I know I need to bring much more archer now since 3.0 to have a chance of winning a siege. Running up the ladder with a shield is not really possible anymore really, not that much because of the defense much more because of your ally pushing you down, you either need to be the first 1 going up the ladder and receive 10 javelin in the face or let your whole army die before you because of their inability to clear an entrance at the top of ladder while they get destroyed by huge amount of ranged unit. Btw I don't need to be behind anything to do damage with a two hander... at higher weapon skill and with a good amount of agi you get almost 2 swing per second and one shot everything even hardest plate with the ruby 2 hander. I spam the screen with kill faster than the game can print it.