About terrorism at the gates of Europe, eyes wide and closed.

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socks said:
Bayard-X said:
I think European media should be a little more concerned about what's happening in Kosovo. In my opinion, any Icon in Kosovo is a piece of European heritage. Any Serbian civilian killed could be one of us.
And I suppose any Kosovar civilian could be one of you, too?

We are talking terrorists, not civilians. The thing that definitely went wrong was that after establishing the UNMIK status in the late 1990s the aim of the UN mandate - securing the lives and properties of any ethnic group - was not achieved. For example, in 2004, there was a rather bloody Anti-Serb pogrome founded on demonstrably false accusations in entire Kosovo and the KFOR was not able to suppress it due to a lack of troops. Obviously not all of the Kosovar Muslim Albanians were involved, but some were. And if you browsed the proposed reference a little, you found that they pointed to "extremists".

The European media should draw a little more attention to the fact that an impartial justice in Kosovo is far of the scope and that there is a certain need to increase the safety of the Serbian civilians. We can assume at the present state that the Muslim Albanians are well protected by their own kin.

 
A faulty assumption, at best. It also ignores the posts by others in this thread calling for a reversal of Kosovar independence, thus nullifying any perceived protecion from retribution.
 
How are passenger trains, medical  facilities, residential houses in towns and vilages, sanatoriums and prisons,  a legitimate military target?  No they are not military targets, but an attempt to put more pressure on the government(or better to say dictator Slobodan Milošević) by doing this illegal acts.


Mage246 said:
A faulty assumption, at best. It also ignores the posts by others in this thread calling for a reversal of Kosovar independence, thus nullifying any perceived protecion from retribution.

That would be true only if Slobodan Milošević who ****ed up a lot of things weren't dead and if country was ruled by socialists or radicals. None of that is not possible, you seem to forget that Serbia is now a democratic country, and only personas who are capable of invoking genocide are Hashim Thaçi, Ramush Haradinaj and Xhavit Haliti. They will do anything to maintain on power and protect their organized criminal enterprises; cocaine/heroine trafficking into Europe and organs trafficking.
Now you tell me is it a faulty assumption to think that they deserve to be in front of court of justice, instead of leaders of Kosovo, who are supposed to mean no harm to what little serbs and catolic albanians are left? You really think that they are capable to lead a democratic Kosovo and make peace negotiations?
 
Zimke Zlovoljni said:
How is passenger train full with civilians in Grdelica or medical  facilities or residential houses in towns and vilages a legitimate military target?  No they are not military targets, but an attempt to put more pressure on the government by doing this illegal acts.

I don't know very much about the Kosovo war, but did the Balkan military forces use the railways, town, and cities during combat, or are Balkans generally more noble and declare their whereabouts honestly?
 
There were no military presence in towns during the war, military presence were in a radius of 20km around towns/cities since there were no land invasion. Army avoided to be present in towns in any form because generals thought civilians won't be targets, but the "more noble" NATO decided they were.
 
Wow, that's pretty impressive. Though a bit stupid considering that they didn't tell NATO they weren't in the towns.
 
Yeah, as we all know, NATO telepaths tend to give their commanders a 100% accurate picture of what's going on on the ground. Everyone knows those fortified buildings are just celebrity hideouts.
 
Zimke Zlovoljni said:
How are passenger trains, medical  facilities, residential houses in towns and vilages, sanatoriums and prisons,  a legitimate military target? 
They're owned by the enemy. And that's only a loose guideline when it comes down to it.
 
Mage246 said:
A faulty assumption, at best. It also ignores the posts by others in this thread calling for a reversal of Kosovar independence, thus nullifying any perceived protecion from retribution.

What has my post to do about any calls for a reversal? I am just stating that in the current situation, KFOR is still needed to avoid retribution.
 
You see, this is the problem. Instead of admitting that the history of the Balkans is that of one group of dicks beating the **** out of another group of dicks, only to be visisted a vengeance later, your playing the blame game.

Whilst I understand that its obviously a very raw matter, the fact is that all factions are to blame, and that it wont get any better until you ALL start learning how to live together rather than fight each other over petty issues.
 
Doom Bunny said:
You see, this is the problem. Instead of admitting that the history of the Balkans is that of one group of dicks beating the **** out of another group of dicks, only to be visisted a vengeance later, your playing the blame game.

Not really. I am pretty much aware that one retalliation is chasing the other. Therefore I am insisting in augmenting the KFOR contingent. Where's the blame in this rational and objective proposal?
 
I wasnt actually addressing anyone in particular, just everyone who seems to be insisting "nation X are all terrorists, nation Y are all helpless victims of foreign aggression".
 
Swadius said:
Yeah, as we all know, NATO telepaths tend to give their commanders a 100% accurate picture of what's going on on the ground. Everyone knows those fortified buildings are just celebrity hideouts.

Mhm, so reconnaissance aircraft, satellites, unmanned aircraft system, any kind of aerial surveillance or gathering intelligence is just a myth?  So the undeveloped NATO and US surveillance is  the reason why depleted uranium ammunition was used, right? 
As I can see the general attitude is that NATO alliance and US is made of merciful angels and saints, who by all means would never do any sort of crime, and the crimes that they are accused of are just a product of imagination?

Interesting point is how fiery you get when I mentioned that your country committed crimes, although you stated "I don't know very much about the Kosovo war", by default you took stance to defend your homeland. 
Well I am taking a stance because I speak about acts I saw and experienced, not what I have been told to.

You gotta understand that I must speak about concerning matters never minding someone's desire to shut me up because it is easier to just turn the head to the other side or even attack someone who wants to speak about the present situation, then to confess that there is a problem and speak openely about it.

All of this is not without a point, or just a random ramble of some insane retarded barbarian about who is guilty and who's not. Situation on Kosovo has been so intensified lately, that another pogrom over the serbs is going to happen soon, and your governments and medias are trying to cover that up because it is easier to control some country by placing war criminals as leaders and blackmailing them into submission. There are enough evidences to send them all to jail, but that is not in the interest of NATO and US.

What I want to try is to make someone (at least one person) to stop and think about what's actually happening, and maybe tell to his father, brother,mother that things are not exactly the same as medias are presenting them, and that something needs to be discussed, so the general public thoughts could change something at one point in the future. No matter how strong they are, governments are always afraid of it's own people, that's why they keep them ignorant in the first place.

General opinion of the individual Europian, American, Australian.. must not be based only on reports some medias are placing in order to sell papers, or justify crimes because someone needed to place their military base and power on Balkan, or support corporations who need more and more oil, or any other money or power driven reason.

Pogrom is going to happen, and you need to think about it and speak about it openly, without fear that your society will reject you because you are not a mindless drone, and by that actually do the right thing. Small steps are important because big ones cannot happen without them.

Doom Bunny said:
You see, this is the problem. Instead of admitting that the history of the Balkans is that of one group of dicks beating the **** out of another group of dicks, only to be visisted a vengeance later, your playing the blame game.

Whilst I understand that its obviously a very raw matter, the fact is that all factions are to blame, and that it wont get any better until you ALL start learning how to live together rather than fight each other over petty issues.

Doom Bunny said:
I wasnt actually addressing anyone in particular, just everyone who seems to be insisting "nation X are all terrorists, nation Y are all helpless victims of foreign aggression".

And you need to know that this is not a matter of blame, there are big changes in balkan politics, dictators of the past like Slobodan and Tudjman are dead, only ones who are trying to keep the "old ways" are currently rulling the kosovo. They need to be prosecuted and put in jail for their crimes , and instead of them reasonable people need to replace them in order to save lives.

Even the albanian journalists are victims of current kosovo government opression, 45% of them are being treathened and 7.5% were physical assaulted for attempts to write something other then Tachi's regime dictates.
 
Yes, as we all know, everything changes in a handful of years. Clearly it was all the fault of just a few people, they definitely had no followers or widespread and organized support.
 
Zimke Zlovoljni said:
Mhm, so reconnaissance aircraft, satellites, unmanned aircraft system, any kind of aerial surveillance or gathering intelligence is just a myth? 

As I can see the general attitude is that NATO alliance and US is made of merciful angels and saints, who by all means would never do any sort of crime, and the crimes that they are accused of are just a product of imagination?
Aerial surveillance to determine the contents of a building? Are you mad? Decisions made during wartime are mostly hasty and risky. No one is mad from you accusing country x of doing y. People are mad because you seem to not understand how things go on during wars and how it affects people of both sides. Especially when they know most likely innocent lives will die from their actions. You seem to label the whole NATO as some sort of a despot organization while flagging off the legitimacy of the war and the cause behind it. That affects the legitimacy of your claim in the eyes of the very people you are trying to get help from.

Zimke Zlovoljni said:
So the undeveloped NATO and US surveillance is  the reason why depleted uranium ammunition was used, right? 
The US made no secret that they were using DU penetrator rounds. Just another way to break Russian armor.

Zimke Zlovoljni said:
All of this is not without a point, or just a random ramble of some insane retarded barbarian about who is guilty and who's not. Situation on Kosovo has been so intensified lately, that another pogrom over the serbs is going to happen soon, and your governments and medias are trying to cover that up because it is easier to control some country by placing war criminals as leaders and blackmailing them into submission. There are enough evidences to send them all to jail, but that is not in the interest of NATO and US.

And you need to know that this is not a matter of blame, there are big changes in balkan politics, dictators of the past like Slobodan and Tudjman are dead, only ones who are trying to keep the "old ways" are currently rulling the kosovo. They need to be prosecuted and put in jail for their crimes , and instead of them reasonable people need to replace them in order to save lives.
You already have the solution for your problems. The problem lies in rallying in your own people. Not ours. We have no need, nor reason to act up against our establishment, being completely disconnected from your realm.

Zimke Zlovoljni said:
What I want to try is to make someone (at least one person) to stop and think about what's actually happening, and maybe tell to his father, brother,mother that things are not exactly the same as medias are presenting them, and that something needs to be discussed, so the general public thoughts could change something at one point in the future. No matter how strong they are, governments are always afraid of it's own people, that's why they keep them ignorant in the first place.
You fail to notice a fallacy in your very own statement. If the population is already now ignorant, what does the government have to be afraid of anymore. If the current generation does not even care if the government is actively ****ing them in their butts, do you think this bunch of peasants are perceived as a threat?

In other words, you are still spouting idealistic garbage. Try again.
 
Zimke Zlovoljni said:
your governments and medias are trying to cover that up because it is easier to control some country by placing war criminals as leaders and blackmailing them into submission. There are enough evidences to send them all to jail, but that is not in the interest of NATO and US.
I think you're confusing apathy for conspiracy.
 
Zimke Zlovoljni said:
Swadius said:
Yeah, as we all know, NATO telepaths tend to give their commanders a 100% accurate picture of what's going on on the ground. Everyone knows those fortified buildings are just celebrity hideouts.
So the undeveloped NATO and US surveillance is  the reason why depleted uranium ammunition was used, right? 

I don't understand the connection there.

DU is 1.7 times as dense as lead, and is used in armour-piercing rounds. It is only mildly radioactive, but on impact with a solid object it burns off in a spray of very fine dust.

Lord Robertson wrote: "DU rounds were used whenever the A-10 aircraft engaged armour during Operation Allied Force. Therefore, it was used throughout Kosovo during approximately 100 missions.

"A total of approximately 31,000 rounds of DU ammunition was used.

"The major focus of these operations was in an area west of the Pec-Dakovica-Prizren highway, in the area surrounding Klina, in the area around Prizren, and in an area to the north of a line joining Suva Reka and Urosevac.

"However, many missions using DU also took place outside these areas." 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/686593.stm

Unfortunately I assume the reason why they used DU ammunition (coloring for porcelain, dentals, plane weights) is the same reason people used to use asbestos as an insulating material, that is that they just didn't know any better.
 
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