'About infantry vs Cav.' - toughts about recent dev input - UPDATED with poll

[Punished Mert]

During the filming of Waterloo (1970) which featured thousands of trained extras (who were actual soldiers), the cavalry charges caused the infantry to rout time and time again despite there being no threat of the horses actually colliding with them, and the scene had to be scrapped. No matter how little danger you are actually in, the cavalry charge itself is enough to cause infantry to break up. And yes, infantrymen would sometimes stand their ground, and in that case the infantry would often retreat. This is why images like this:

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are so ridiculous, because that would be a worst case scenario for both sides and only a robot would commit to a charge like that.

Multiplayer matches can never hope to simulate morale like that, so trying to make cavalry more realistic is already missing the main component for that.

Those extras in Waterloo were Soviet conscripts. Dont even think that their discipline surpasses "stand still during peace time while another 2000 soviet horsemen run around them aggressively and feign charges". I've seen videos where Dutch and German professional soldiers stand still on a road while a Leopard tank burns through a corner at 60kph and hits the brakes only to skid to a stop right before hitting the soldiers. That's the reasonable expectation of discipline you should expect from tier 4-5 infantry.

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Also why isn't anyone really discussing the effectiveness of horse armor. Cataphracts, historically, had the absolute expectation of being able to wade into the thick of a formation and duke it out, the horse were basically invulnerable but they were slow, ridiculously slow. The parthian cataphracts vs the roman legions in the deserts of syria as an example, The phracts would wade into infantry formations (notice i said wade, not charge) and duke it out with the romans after they'd been softened up by archers. And the phracts would wade back out once they got tired.

Lancers on the other hand had faster horses and much less armor, preferably used to run down routers and puncture holes in weak spots. The super heavy armor of a phract and the speed/shock of a lancer did not really combine until the advent of plate armor, which is after this time period. I can't really think off the top of my head where shock cavalry were the primary focus of an engagement between the 6th to 12th century. Generally it only comes up as "amazingly/through gods grace/through masterful timing the infantry formation broke and the cav dominated" or "commander goofed and his beautiful nobility got run down by men wearing flannel togas holding sharpened sticks in the bogs of scotland"

How does this translate in game? Make horse armor ridiculous. Ridiculously strong and ridiculously heavy at higher levels and make it effect movement speed of the horse. Then give us a cataphract AI that will walk into a formation and duke it out and stay there/cycle charge. They should be expected to kill enemy infantry with one handed weapons and sheer blunt damage from the fact that 3000 pounds of horse and metal just thumped them. Then change the lancer AI to not want to charge unless enemy facing is in a direction away from them. If we can give a formation command that says face the enemy I expect your AI can tell if someone is facing them.

 

[bigbalzzz]

Those extras in Waterloo were Soviet conscripts. Dont even think that their discipline surpasses "stand still during peace time while another 2000 soviet horsemen run around them aggressively and feign charges". I've seen videos where Dutch and German professional soldiers stand still on a road while a Leopard tank burns through a corner at 60kph and hits the brakes only to skid to a stop right before hitting the soldiers. That's the reasonable expectation of discipline you should expect from tier 4-5 infantry.

they had thier backs to the tank bruh defeats your own point

 

[bigbalzzz]

Those extras in Waterloo were Soviet conscripts. Dont even think that their discipline surpasses "stand still during peace time while another 2000 soviet horsemen run around them aggressively and feign charges". I've seen videos where Dutch and German professional soldiers stand still on a road while a Leopard tank burns through a corner at 60kph and hits the brakes only to skid to a stop right before hitting the soldiers. That's the reasonable expectation of discipline you should expect from tier 4-5 infantry.

also i gave u over 10 historical books that show you eveidence you asked for on page 4 of this thread

 

[Ruler of Calradia]

I think its better gameplay if cavalry can charge spearmen frontally. Spearmen in middle ages did not murder heavy cavalry that easily anyway. Cavalry was dominating. Which is why people moved onto pike formations (missile units, like famous English longbowmen, also helped). However, even pike formations were successfully charged by heavy cavalry, frontally. Not easy or common thing to do without decimating your own cavalry, but it was achieved at least few times.

We need to find balance between cavalry domination and infantry domination, this much is obvious. Both should be useful and viable.

Maybe make it so that initial cavalry charge is incredibly powerful, but if infantry line does not break (in other words, if cavalry does not go through unit and exit from other side) cavalry should have really hard time to disengage. And i believe already cavalry that is stuck in melee is woulnerable to infantry. In real life mere threat of cavalry charge sometimes forced infantry to form into very deep formations. Most notably in later eras with musket armed line infantry. Famous attack of Napoleon's Imperial Guard was done in squares due to threat of cavalry charge, if nothing else it hindered their firepower and they did not send skirmishers like they normally would. Back to medieval era: deep formation means you can get outflanked by enemy infantry and cavalry and archers. Forming deeper formations should not be obvious choice all the time, line formations should be more effective against infantry (and protecting flanks ofc).

So, form deep formation and risk being outflanked. Or form in line and risk being broken by enemy cavalry. Maybe your cavalry is crucial to prevent enemy cavalry from attacking your infantry. Or maybe your cavalry is inferior so you have to form deep formations. That does not eliminate cavalry threat, but it would greatly reduce it. Reducing enemy's powerful cavalry advantage can give you advantage if you have better infantry, so you may be able to break enemy lines with your infantry.

Also in deep formations you might have trouble protecting your archers. Would be nice if we could form hollow squares where archers are in the middle by selecting both infantry and archers and forming square with them. Could even add cavalry in the middle too, if cavalry is too weak to survive on it's own. Tthough it really should dismount in this situation, but lets not force it on players. Cavalry inside infantry square is great target for enemy missiles and size of horses can easily hinder any friendly missile troops inside the square.

And ofc sometimes there were cases where deeper formation could break through enemy's center. But often that meant accepting that enemy will be able to attack on your flanks, so its not obvious call either way.

 

[pRaX]

Imho... strictly from a gameplay perspective.

No Cav, no matter armored or not, should ever frontally charge into spear / pike infantry. At least not without getting obliterated / heavy losses.
Hammer and Anvil should always work though even with the weakest and lightest Cav to varying degrees of damage depending on the type.

Makes the most sense to me without bringing realism/history into it.

 

[Ruler of Calradia]

Imho... strictly from a gameplay perspective.

No Cav, no matter armored or not, should ever frontally charge into spear / pike infantry. At least not without getting obliterated / heavy losses.
Hammer and Anvil should always work though even with the weakest and lightest Cav to varying degrees of damage depending on the type.

Makes the most sense to me without bringing realism/history into it.

Personally i would hate that kind of hard counters. Especially when its not that simple to make your infantry face enemy cavalry - it does not seem to solve the problem that well. In fact it can make outflanking even easier than currently, making situation worse.

 

[pRaX]

Personally i would hate that kind of hard counters. Especially when its not that simple to make your infantry face enemy cavalry - it does not seem to solve the problem that well. In fact it can make outflanking even easier than currently, making situation worse.

So your personal problem is not being able to keep up with the micro I assume? Genuine question.

I play my battles and field my armies like I would in Total War Multiplayer match and can keep up quite good with directing all my unit groups around with the downside of not really contributing to the battle with my character ofc.

So from my perspective it's really frustrating to not be able to counter cav with my dedicated spearmen unit groups. Especially since spearmen are already pretty much useless in melee, I would've hoped they could at least accomplish countering Cav.

 

[Punished Mert]

they had thier backs to the tank bruh defeats your own point

No, it shows the value of training and discipline in an actual professional combat unit. Soviet extras fleeing the scene in waterloo should not be an example of how trained infantry fight. Tier 4-5 infantry should hold their guard similar to the dutch soldiers who were told "stand here and you'll be fine."

also i gave u over 10 historical books that show you eveidence you asked for on page 4 of this thread

You linked a bunch of books in arabic, then "referenced" a bunch of titles that nobody can reasonably google and find what the hell you're talking about and then quoted waleed. IE you basically linked nothing worthwhile for actual historical documents. It should be noted the majority of Arab wins during that time period against seriously depleted empires were through masterful flanking/penetration maneuvers and not steam rolling through the enemy lines. It was same with the mongols centuries later, if you check the historics mongol lancers couldnt penetrate european infantry formations at all. They used flanking manuevers/harassing techniques and feints to force the enemy army to break open to allow mongol riders in.

 

[bigbalzzz]

So your personal problem is not being able to keep up with the micro I assume? Genuine question.

I play my battles and field my armies like I would in Total War Multiplayer match and can keep up quite good with directing all my unit groups around with the downside of not really contributing to the battle with my character ofc.

So from my perspective it's really frustrating to not be able to counter cav with my dedicated spearmen unit groups. Especially since spearmen are already pretty much useless in melee, I would've hoped they could at least accomplish countering Cav.

spears already do well against cav
unlike total war cav vs spear isnt cav 100% lose ans spear win easy
i like it this way
usesage of spears in general need tweaking
but the path toward it being the OP choice vs cav like total war is a bad bad bad bad bad choice
spears vs cavs would be heavy to both
and spears would lose more than cav most of the time
yes its effective in cutting down most of the cav
but it shouldnt take care of all the cav or keep casualties minum

 

[bigbalzzz]

No, it shows the value of training and discipline in an actual professional combat unit. Soviet extras fleeing the scene in waterloo should not be an example of how trained infantry fight. Tier 4-5 infantry should hold their guard similar to the dutch soldiers who were told "stand here and you'll be fine."



You linked a bunch of books in arabic, then "referenced" a bunch of titles that nobody can reasonably google and find what the hell you're talking about and then quoted waleed. IE you basically linked nothing worthwhile for actual historical documents. It should be noted the majority of Arab wins during that time period against seriously depleted empires were through masterful flanking/penetration maneuvers and not steam rolling through the enemy lines. It was same with the mongols centuries later, if you check the historics mongol lancers couldnt penetrate european infantry formations at all. They used flanking manuevers/harassing techniques and feints to force the enemy army to break open to allow mongol riders in.

i linked you historical documents
if you read books made by only one culture and dont bother with the rest
then dont complain about realism because the game has a variety of cultures
get educated and read outside of your box read before you speak
because nothing can be worse than an ill educated man

 

[pRaX]

spears already do well against cav
unlike total war cav vs spear isnt cav 100% lose ans spear win easy
i like it this way
usesage of spears in general need tweaking
but the path toward it being the OP choice vs cav like total war is a bad bad bad bad bad choice
spears vs cavs would be heavy to both
and spears would lose more than cav most of the time
yes its effective in cutting down most of the cav
but it shouldnt take care of all the cav or keep casualties minum

Well, that's your prerogative.

I don't like to send out Cav into everything like I'm braindead and get away with it.
We already had that in Warband and even somewhat have it in Bannerlord at the moment, depending on the Cav.
It would also defeat the point of all the formations we have... we would be back to square one.

Spears aren't good for anything currently.
I don't know what difficulty settings you are using but spearmen are literally a waste of party space right now.

 

[bigbalzzz]

Well, that's your prerogative.

I don't like to send out cav into everything like I'm braindead and get away with it. We already had that and even somewhat have it in Bannerlord right now depending on the Cav.

Spears aren't good for anything right now. I don't know what difficulty settings you are using but spearmen are literally a waste of party space right now.

i already said spears need to be tweak and said how....
but you shouldnt also send spears blindly to where ever cav is because they are too gewd agianst cav
and one type of formation to make them just embrace aginst cav is bad
please read what i said before you move further with the convo

 

[Çağtay]

I really want to see cavalry as something that Im genuinely scared about,feel the dread when they are up and about,but expense of spear units? not so much

how hard would be to implement both of these options? like extra diffuculty setting or something let the player choose in options menu, would that be feasible?

 

[pRaX]

i already said spears need to be tweak and said how....
but you shouldnt also send spears blindly to where ever cav is because they are too gewd agianst cav
and one type of formation to make them just embrace aginst cav is bad
please read what i said before you move further with the convo

I never said that Spears should outright delete Cav.
Only that it should apply horrendous losses if being ready for it and braindeadly charged into frontally.
Therefore, not recommended.

Besides, you seem to think that I'm implying to use spears as an offensive tool against Cav which isn't true at all.
Rather use them as a slow but mobile blockade.
If you manage get around or past them, good, you earned it.

Cav should be micro intensive to get the most out of it imho. Same with spearmen to counter them.

I mean it works for the most part already right now. A very well directed Hammer&Anvil charge into the backs of unit groups seem to apply big morale losses and make the enemies flee pretty quick due to huge morale loss. Not sure if it's a fluke but there seems to be a mechanic in place in the current versions of the game. But it also works to just Swadia Charge into everything... which is a sad affair.

 

[Hugo_Stiglitz]

Shield wall w spears should be very effective vs cav. Shield wall with swords not so much. Spears and pikemen frontally should be the hard counter to a cav charge from the front. The hard counter to 2 H pike is swordsmen or ranged units. Hard counter to shield wall should be flanking and a slow moving shield wall formation.

Some sort of "brace" mechanic where 2H spears brace in one direction and can't pivot or react to side/rear attacks until they're taken out of the "brace" stance. Like the brace mechanic with 2H pikes in.. Napoleon I think it is?

 

[bigbalzzz]

I never said that Spears should outright delete Cav.


Cav should be micro intensive to get the most out of it imho. Same with spearmen.

seems we both agree
i just dont like cav vs spear hard counter in total war due to how easy cav gets deleted and most of the spear men survive an equal number of cav

 

[Punished Mert]

i linked you historical documents
if you read books made by only one culture and dont bother with the rest
then dont complain about realism because the game has a variety of cultures
get educated and read outside of your box read before you speak
because nothing can be worse than an ill educated man

No you see the problem with linking me things in arabic is that I can't read them. Plus this has nothing to do with culture. Every "warrior" culture that values masculinity is going to write about how their warriors were the hottest thing since sliced bread. News flash, they usually werent anything special. The arab horsemen weren't anything special, they just had a really good string of commanders and a perfect power vacuum to inherit their lands.

I'm done talking with you, it's going to quickly devolve into some ethno-nationalistic nonsense about the noble arab horsemen and their ability to blindly charge into death.

 

[Ted Striker]

I never said that Spears should outright delete Cav.
Only that it should apply horrendous losses if being ready for it and braindeadly charged into frontally.
Therefore, not recommended.

Besides, you seem to think that I'm implying to use spears as an offensive tool against Cav which isn't true at all.
Rather use them as a mobile blockade.

Cav should be micro intensive to get the most out of it imho.

I mean it works for the most part already right now. A very well directed Hammer&Anvil charge into the backs of unit groups seem to apply big morale losses and make the enemies flee pretty quick due to huge morale loss. Not sure if it's a fluke but there seems to be a mechanic in place in the current versions of the game.

This isn't Total War though where you can effectively micromanage units in a battle. There needs to be some level of autonomy to troops in M&B, meaning cavalry should know to flank before charging. Horse archers know to circle and skirmish without input. Cavalry should know to approach in a sort of arc and charge their flanks. At the very least it should be a command option. Hit Their Flanks, Hit Their Rear, Hit Their Front or something, because there will be times you want them to charge straight at them.

If we had an overhead view of the battlefield autonomy wouldn't be necessary but the way M&B is you can't micro everyone. Troops have to have some amount of autonomy.

 

[bigbalzzz]

This isn't Total War though where you can effectively micromanage units in a battle. There needs to be some level of autonomy to troops in M&B, meaning cavalry should know to flank before charging. Horse archers know to circle and skirmish without input. Cavalry should know to approach in a sort of arc and charge their flanks. At the very least it should be a command option. Hit Their Flanks or Hit Their Rear or something.

If we had an overhead view of the battlefield autonomy wouldn't be necessary but the way M&B is you can't micro everyone. Troops have to have some amount of autonomy.

i like this alot +1

 

[Ruler of Calradia]

So your personal problem is not being able to keep up with the micro I assume? Genuine question.

I play my battles and field my armies like I would in Total War Multiplayer match and can keep up quite good with directing all my unit groups around with the downside of not really contributing to the battle with my character ofc.

So from my perspective it's really frustrating to not be able to counter cav with my dedicated spearmen unit groups. Especially since spearmen are already pretty much useless in melee, I would've hoped they could at least accomplish countering Cav.

That is one part, another is that i don't like when counters are too extreme, and also for historical reasons. In middle ages cavalry dominated. Spearmen were not pikemen and everyone switched to pikemen because they were actually effective against even heaviest of cavalry.

EDIT: and also, i want to enjoy fighting too, not only leading all the time. So i don't want too much micro.

Total wars (without mods) are too fast paced for me to enjoy them. Really not fan of games where clicking fast is so important. I want more slow paced battles where you have time to think. They also tend to be ones with most strategy involved since they last longer and you and enemy have time to react to each others.

Spearmen should be stronger in melee, but only if they can withstand initial charge ->my first post.