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About BFC and KKG balance

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iRkshz

Regular
clarification:
BFC - Battanians Fian Champions
KKG - Khuzait Khans Guard

This post is just my reflections based on a large number of hours of game passage - and so after I achieved dominance on the map several times for each nation, I looked for the strengths and weaknesses of each nation.

At the moment I believe that the main imbalance is brought in by BFC and KKG - and I thought for a long time how to fix it.

If BFC and KKG reduce armor and weapons or stats, it will make them less interesting and epic!

Then I thought, what is the main foundation of the gameplay - and this is the economy!
In order for you to collect 100 BFC or 100 KKG you need 5 workshops that will bring 350 gold each (it's easy if you know where and which workshops to buy and what skills to learn).
But 100 BFC or 100 KKG is not the ultimate amount to dominate any battle in the early and middle stages of the game.
The critical mass is 200 BFC or KKG (for the early and middle stages of the game), this can be achieved at clan level 4 and if you learned a stewart (or having many towns or with the right policy).

But I found a way how you can have 100 BFC or 100 KKG and at the same time have only 5 workshops (1\350+g). And it is very difficult to provide 200 BFC or 200 KKG with gold, for this you need 6 workshops (1\350+g) and 1 town and you need to learn a stewart at 275 and learn the "Price of Loyalty" skill (I did this in 7 years).

And so, once again I faced the problem of imbalance, when the game cannot limit me from having an ultimatum personal army (200 BFC or 200 KKG kill any army of 600 T4-5 units) with minimal loses.

I have considered for a long time the optimal model for the balance of BFC and KKG, and this is their maintenance cost - it should be 24 gold, and only in this case the player will not be able to collect an army exclusively from BFC and KKG units.

When your clan has level 6 and 3-4 towns and the correct policy and have a skill "Price of Loyalty", you will have 400+ BFC or KKG - it is an ultimatum army that kills ALMOST everything!
And if you create an army from your minions, you can have from 700-1000 BFC or KKG (if you did the right economics, you have enough money) - this army can REALLY be unable to stop anything!!!

I think that this is unacceptable, because the game turns into a quest - collect 400 (1000) BFC or KKG and @#$% everything!

P.S. and given the fact that bandits join very often, this is not a problem, it's a matter of time and desire!
 
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I just feel like making noble troops more common and still allowing them to be accessible through bandits is not a good idea. I would much rather nobles all be amazing, but hard to acquire as opposed to being some sort of dumb min max staple ala Swadian Knights.
 

AJAJP_Juan

Knight at Arms
I just feel like making noble troops more common and still allowing them to be accessible through bandits is not a good idea. I would much rather nobles all be amazing, but hard to acquire as opposed to being some sort of dumb min max staple ala Swadian Knights.

The problem with rare nobles was a lack of cavalry on most factions, and archers in Battania. Fault of the troop trees design? Maybe, but even if we go with your rare-but-powerful troops, it will give massive advantage to the player, as he will be always better at keeping such units and power gaming to get them.
 
The problem with rare nobles was a lack of cavalry on most factions, and archers in Battania. Fault of the troop trees design? Maybe, but even if we go with your rare-but-powerful troops, it will give massive advantage to the player, as he will be always better at keeping such units and power gaming to get them.
You mean like they're already doing?

No matter what, a player is always going to have the advantage when it comes to creating a strong army.

Apart from the Imperials, I don't think anyone would suffer from a lack of cavalry due to rare noble troops. Troop trees really aren't all that well designed.
 

AJAJP_Juan

Knight at Arms
You mean like they're already doing?

No matter what, a player is always going to have the advantage when it comes to creating a strong army.

Yes, but is not the same the player's 60 vs AI's 30 than player's 60 vs AI's 5. Not an end all solution, but reduce the power gap.
 

iRkshz

Regular
That's actually difficult for most other players.
Yes you are right, it was also difficult for me when I started playing, but I have a habit of always finding a way to total domination, so my brains found this way.

But if I found it, then other fans of the game will find it, after which they will stream "easy game" and make videos for YouTube - after which VERY many players will come to this path.

I have found an unbalanced path in the game that is very easy to fix, developers just need to increase the price for the maintenance of these two types of units.

P.S. you can collect 100+ units in one quest "help with bandits" - it's really ez
 
I think if the other noble troops would hit enemies with thier ****ing weapons more then 1/10 charges it would 'balance' this out by having them be useful and worth bringing to the battle field.

I also, as always with these types of threads, have to say: The particulars of Fians and Khan's guard don't effect the AI x AI stuff at all, in fact a to the auto-calc the t6 cavalry is all hot stuff! This is 100% only for player's preference and benefit and so isn't a balance issue at all.

I would consider it a 100% negative gameplay issue that Cavalry and especially t6 cavalry underperform and lack survivability to be worth the effort of obtaining and raising them. Has nothing at all to do with units that do perform well.

P.S. you can collect 100+ units in one quest "help with bandits" - it's really ez
How so. I haven't heard of this? Unless you mean making bandits surrender and using the veteran's respect perk?
That requires a long time leading armies as a vassal so by no means fast or early game.

I use forced recruitment against the Khuzait villages to collect thier noble units at the start of the game and rapidly amass a KG party. I don't have any of the money issues ever, because I can constantly take down parties ands tart taking towns directly (via means that don't involve my precious KG).
 

McDadden

Recruit
I agree they are the best two units in the game, but there will always be a best unit in the game. Increasing their daily cost wont prevent most players from farming large armies of them. I almost always run a daily deficit but dont worry about it because of the large loot hauls I trade in along with ransoms.
 

Xavyn

Recruit
I have considered for a long time the optimal model for the balance of BFC and KKG, and this is their maintenance cost - it should be 24 gold, and only in this case the player will not be able to collect an army exclusively from BFC and KKG units.
I think that this is unacceptable, because the game turns into a quest - collect 400 (1000) BFC or KKG and @#$% everything!

P.S. and given the fact that bandits join very often, this is not a problem, it's a matter of time and desire!
Yes you are right, it was also difficult for me when I started playing, but I have a habit of always finding a way to total domination, so my brains found this way.

But if I found it, then other fans of the game will find it, after which they will stream "easy game" and make videos for YouTube - after which VERY many players will come to this path.

I have found an unbalanced path in the game that is very easy to fix, developers just need to increase the price for the maintenance of these two types of units.

P.S. you can collect 100+ units in one quest "help with bandits" - it's really ez

I have to disagree, I don't think your reasoning is sound here. Although what you are proposing isn't completely world altering, the idea of making changes that will effect all players because there is one player that plays the game in the specific way you laid out, all for the goal of recruiting a certain amount of Fians and Khan's Guards to make the game no longer challenging, sets a bad precedent.

There are many ways to generate exorbitant amounts of money allowing players to easily manage paying for a large amount of these high tier nobles and this change of increasing their wage by 5 gold won't have any impact on players that have set themselves up with basically infinite Denars... but it will effect those players who are maybe less experienced and already struggling to keep up on the wages as they are and also the players like me that give themselves certain constraints to keep the game challenging and interesting.

Players have been capable of doing what you mentioned for some time now and I don't see constant videos and streams everywhere about this OP army you can create to dominate everything... because why would you build that army if it removes all the challenge effectively killing that campaign. What you propose is only useful (maybe) to someone like you who finds joy primarily in optimization but I imagine that is a small portion of the playerbase given this is a sandbox game at its heart.

If anything this sounds like something that you would make a simple mod for... for the players who want that BiS doomstack but want a bit more challenge maintaining it. But then again, that sounds counter-intuitive to the idea of even building this army which seems to be to remove challenge.
 

iRkshz

Regular

I have to disagree
Now the game is in EA and the developers are still working on it. But soon the game will be released. There will be a lot of advertising and promotion, there will be many new players - this always happens.
When this happens, there will be many guides, streamers, videos (how to become a god).
I’m sorry that you don’t understand this.
Can you remind me how many guides come out for any good big games? Look in Google, how million requests per year in the world, for each game where can you dominate?

There are only ONE ways to get a stable economy:
+ workshops + towns and castles with high prosperity + skills for workshops and "Price of Loyalty"
The rest of the economy paths are NOT stable:
1. Caravans die like flies, especially when war breaks out.
2. Forge in the late stage (when one sword costs 100k + gold, but it is long and tedious and requires constant cleaning of the entire map).
3. War - war does not always happen, and war does not always happen against a strong enemy.
And so, as you can see the first path is the most stable, guess what the player will choose if he finds out how to get stability?

The advantage of BFC and KKG army is that you almost never lose them. This is an almost eternal army. That is, having a stable economy with an eternal army, the game does not give difficulties and everything becomes simple - this is an imbalance!

P.S. Veterans Respect is one of the most critical skills for a late game. Which allows you to get a large number of premium troops of the 4th level.

I do not want and will not persuade anyone. As I wrote at the beginning, this is just my reasoning. But I guarantee that when the game is released, there will be millions of guides on how to become a god, and this path will become popular.
 
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Now the game is in EA and the developers are still working on it. But soon the game will be released. There will be a lot of advertising and promotion, there will be many new players - this always happens.
When this happens, there will be many guides, streamers, videos (how to become a god).
I’m sorry that you don’t understand this.
Can you remind me how many guides come out for any good big games? Look in Google, how million requests per year in the world, for each game where can you dominate?

There are only ONE ways to get a stable economy:
+ workshops + towns and castles with high prosperity + skills for workshops and "Price of Loyalty"
The rest of the economy paths are NOT stable:
1. Caravans die like flies, especially when war breaks out.
2. Forge in the late stage (when one sword costs 100k + gold, but it is long and tedious and requires constant cleaning of the entire map).
3. War - war does not always happen, and war does not always happen against a strong enemy.
And so, as you can see the first path is the most stable, guess what the player will choose if he finds out how to get stability?

The advantage of BFC and KKG army is that you almost never lose them. This is an almost eternal army. That is, having a stable economy with an eternal army, the game does not give difficulties and everything becomes simple - this is an imbalance!

P.S. Veterans Respect is one of the most critical skills for a late game. Which allows you to get a large number of premium troops of the 4th level.

I do not want and will not persuade anyone. As I wrote at the beginning, this is just my reasoning. But I guarantee that when the game is released, there will be millions of guides on how to become a god, and this path will become popular.
So to sum it up what you're saying is the game should try to stop players from min-maxing. Imho that's not a great way to build a game. Players are always going to look for easy ways to do things. The game should primarily try to be fun and engaging, but unfortunately it's one of the most grindy games (besides mmos) I've ever played and that's coming from a veteran of the M&B series.
 

iRkshz

Regular
So to sum it up what you're saying is the game should try to stop players from min-maxing. Imho that's not a great way to build a game. Players are always going to look for easy ways to do things. The game should primarily try to be fun and engaging, but unfortunately it's one of the most grindy games (besides mmos) I've ever played and that's coming from a veteran of the M&B series.
I found an economic-military imbalance and offered to fix it
the player should respect and cherish premium troops, not collect them as trash
 
I found an economic-military imbalance and offered to fix it
the player should respect and cherish premium troops, not collect them as trash
That's your opinion, but personally I don't see that T6 troops are worth the time, money, or effort. But ask yourself this if it's so easy to replenish troops why should players respect or cherish them, because they're just meat for the grinder in a battle simulator. If developers are going to make an open world game then they need to allow players freedom, if players want to min-max that's their choice. But not everyone wants or needs to to min-max.
 

iRkshz

Regular
That's your opinion, but personally I don't see that T6 troops are worth the time, money, or effort. But ask yourself this if it's so easy to replenish troops why should players respect or cherish them, because they're just meat for the grinder in a battle simulator. If developers are going to make an open world game then they need to allow players freedom, if players want to min-max that's their choice. But not everyone wants or needs to to min-max.
if the player wants an easy game, he sets the easy difficulty
I don't understand why elite troops should be easy to recruit and maintain
although no, I understand, players need to add a store, with a purchase for 100$ a god mod, I am sure there will be many who wish
 
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Apocal

Master Knight
I don't understand why elite troops should be easy to recruit and maintain
Well, if you've actually completed a conquest, you're probably in the top 3% of BL players. What is easy for you isn't easy for other players. Other players still struggle with finances maintaining a totally normal party.

edit: Like, just watch some of the streams linked at top for awhile.
 
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Well the easy way would be to add 300 fians over the developer console+ million denars at start. That would be the easiest way I think. Every new player with a strategic sense would see after 2 hours of playing that range troops are the most efficient way to dominate the ai in battle, than the next step is to figure out how to maintain them.

And regarding wars... They are stable. I just go to a village and start raiding. As minor clan I can have an endless war against a faction.
 
War - war does not always happen, and war does not always happen against a strong enemy.
You can make wars happen as often or as little as you want if you're not in a faction.

I'm not against making some troops cost more or other penalties, but I really think it's much more important that TW make the other noble units equally useful on the battle field and in general for underperforming troops types to be made to perform thier roles in satisfying way.

I want to charge my t6 noble cav into the side or rear of the enemy blob and see wall of green death! Right now they hit a few and give the rest gentle nudges and then get beat like a piñata!

Also your solution is just based on your own experience trying to stabilize your money. Trying to balance things with money just penalizes players who are already having a hard time but does nothing to sway players who know the game. Making them cost 50 a day wouldn't phase me 1 bit and anybody interested could easily learn all the things I do in game and do them too.

P.S. Veterans Respect is one of the most critical skills for a late game. Which allows you to get a large number of premium troops of the 4th level.
It's absolutely not needed at all. Not only are other generic troops perfectly fine, I already told you how anyone can get noble troops much faster and earlier in the game. If I can get more and get them much faster how can a slower much later perk be critical?
 

iRkshz

Regular
I'm not against making some troops cost more or other penalties, but I really think it's much more important that TW make the other noble units equally useful on the battle field and in general for underperforming troops types to be made to perform thier roles in satisfying way.

I want to charge my t6 noble cav into the side or rear of the enemy blob and see wall of green death! Right now they hit a few and give the rest gentle nudges and then get beat like a piñata!
it's impossible
t6 cavalry lives longer than t5 cavalry is a fact (because they have better armor)
but cavalry has always been and will be meat for flanking or direct attacks
BFC and KKG these are t6 units with a large ranged attack with high damage, which you can maneuver and prevent direct collisions with the enemy
btw, BFC and KKG are the best melee units, because their weapons and skill allow them to kill the enemy with one hit
therefore these units are versatile and this is an imbalance
 

BigFat

Regular
If only there was some way to reduce arrow damage, something that you could put in between your soft flesh and their sharp sharp arrows. Maybe it could even be something you wear? That might reduce the effectiveness of these units a bit. Unfortunately, such a thing is unfathomable. Now I must go back to saving up for my 500,000 denar Coat of (aluminum) Plates.
 
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