A Song of Ice and Fire Mod 0.3 for M&B 0.903

[Jordash]

I've been playing this mod a lot since 0.4 was released and although it's by far my favorite mod out I still have a few gripes with it.

Right now the Greyjoy invaders are pretty overpowered after a certain amount of time has passed. In my game right now they're roaming around the Riverlands razing every village they come across with no Starks to defend. I think it would be best if they were their own faction, as people have suggested, who focused on attacking the North and near Oldtown. Also, the Ironborn aren't really fond of horses and mounted combat, so I think that the only cavalry they get (if any at all) should be lightly armed and armored, instead of heavy as it is now. Fighting off Ironborn raiding parties up north in the early parts of the game and having their cavalry outstrip mine was more than a little odd.

Secondly, the Others don't really do anything once they spawn south of the wall, and are way way too easy to kill. I ran across a group of 40 with myself, 2 heroes, and a handful of mounted units (my forces were 10 to 12 total) and managed to wipe them all out without a single death or injury.

I'm playing on full damage with Good AI and full game speed, if that makes a difference.

Also, I've run into a few minor bugs and oddities, and I'll see if I can come up with a list in the next few days. Simple stuff like towns without snow in their scenes up north near the wall, or towns in the Riverlands that are covered in snow.

 

[Jordash]

blah

There is a lot of good ideas in your words, but some of them are not so good at my taste.
Mainly, I'm just not like too much games with hardcoded scripted plot, where there are a sequence of predetermined events, affecting general in-game situation regardless of player's actions. I don't want to say that it's bad, I just don't like it. If plot is really good and I haven't seen it before, it could be really cool - but only once.
So, I'm gonna try to make a mod with much more freedom to player and AI. I want to take from books only a situation at game start - geography, relations, major plans and goals. But after that game situation could evolve to completely new direction every time new game starts... IMHO, there isn't much fun in being a prophet.
In my story's draft there is only one predetermined event - Daenerys' invasion, and it's have no exact date. All other game events are consequences of predefined starting conditions and AI's and player's actions.

Nevertheless, I'd very like your ideas about tournaments, renown, quests and character creation.

Thanks for the reply. I guess the biggest thing I would like to see is the part in the beginning I was talking about, where you can attend tournaments and do all that other prewar stuff. I think it's important to to capture the feel of the world before the war starts, as it is in A Game of Thrones, but I might be the only one who feels that way. Maybe people could have the option of skipping right to the war at character creation to avoid that if they wish.

Don't get me wrong, I love the mod and the work everyone has put in to it. These are just my ideas.

 

[Jheral]

On a sidenote, I think Harrenhal should be a castle, not a village,...

If anything, I'd make it a city. After all, Winterfell is a city in the mod, and Harrenhal is described as being much larger than Winterfell (then again, I guess the size of the place doesn't have to mean anything when it comes to that).
On a related subject, Moat Cailin should be a castle, not a village.

Come to think of it, a lot of the settlements look to be the wrong size/type/whatever (to me, anyway. Might be that i misunderstood the books, of course).

 

[MadScientist22]

If anything, I'd make it a city. After all, Winterfell is a city in the mod, and Harrenhal is described as being much larger than Winterfell (then again, I guess the size of the place doesn't have to mean anything when it comes to that).
On a related subject, Moat Cailin should be a castle, not a village.

Come to think of it, a lot of the settlements look to be the wrong size/type/whatever (to me, anyway. Might be that i misunderstood the books, of course).

Well, the problem is that a lot of the locations mentioned in the book are either cities or castles; it just wouldn't do to mention all the villages as there'd be too many (most of the characters draw a line between 'smallfolk' and 'their kind', so even less reason to mention villages). So not all actual cities and castles can be made that or the balance of the game would be gone.

However, given its significance in the novels  I do feel that Harrenhal is entitled to being a castle.

 

[vanedor]

If anything, I'd make it a city. After all, Winterfell is a city in the mod, and Harrenhal is described as being much larger than Winterfell (then again, I guess the size of the place doesn't have to mean anything when it comes to that).
On a related subject, Moat Cailin should be a castle, not a village.

Come to think of it, a lot of the settlements look to be the wrong size/type/whatever (to me, anyway. Might be that i misunderstood the books, of course).

From what I understood, while Harrenhal is indeed larger, it does not have a «village» outside its walls like Winterfell does. So in my opinion, Winterfell can be a city while Harrenhal is just a (huge) castle.

 

[Sparehawk]

If anything, I'd make it a city. After all, Winterfell is a city in the mod, and Harrenhal is described as being much larger than Winterfell (then again, I guess the size of the place doesn't have to mean anything when it comes to that).
On a related subject, Moat Cailin should be a castle, not a village.

Come to think of it, a lot of the settlements look to be the wrong size/type/whatever (to me, anyway. Might be that i misunderstood the books, of course).

From what I understood, while Harrenhal is indeed larger, it does not have a «village» outside its walls like Winterfell does. So in my opinion, Winterfell can be a city while Harrenhal is just a (huge) castle.

The only reason why I've made Harrenhal not a castle is that it hasn't any actual lord. At plot start, it belongs to weak old woman...
I've thinked about giving it to Janos Slynt, but have decided that it would be better just to turn it to village. At the whole books' plot it have 3 owners, but neither Slynt, nor Baelish not ever visit their property...

 

[Sparehawk]

If anything, I'd make it a city. After all, Winterfell is a city in the mod, and Harrenhal is described as being much larger than Winterfell (then again, I guess the size of the place doesn't have to mean anything when it comes to that).
On a related subject, Moat Cailin should be a castle, not a village.

Come to think of it, a lot of the settlements look to be the wrong size/type/whatever (to me, anyway. Might be that i misunderstood the books, of course).

Well, the problem is that a lot of the locations mentioned in the book are either cities or castles; it just wouldn't do to mention all the villages as there'd be too many (most of the characters draw a line between 'smallfolk' and 'their kind', so even less reason to mention villages). So not all actual cities and castles can be made that or the balance of the game would be gone.

That's true. According to books, there are only five settlements in Westeros large enough to be called cities: King's Landing, Oldtown, Lannisport, Gulltown and White Harbour. There are also few towns mentioned: Duskendale, Stoney Sept, Maidenpool... All other mentioned settlemens marked as castles. However, M&B specificity demands that there should be a few cities, a bit more castles and lot of villages... So, I've decided to turn castles, that aren't belonged to any significant lord, to villages.
Also I've tried to preserve an original terrain control algorithm, when castles and cities are faction infuence centers and villages belongs to nearest center...

 

[Sparehawk]

Thanks for the reply. I guess the biggest thing I would like to see is the part in the beginning I was talking about, where you can attend tournaments and do all that other prewar stuff. I think it's important to to capture the feel of the world before the war starts, as it is in A Game of Thrones, but I might be the only one who feels that way. Maybe people could have the option of skipping right to the war at character creation to avoid that if they wish.

I'll think about it, but can't promise anything yet.

 

[Sparehawk]

Right now the Greyjoy invaders are pretty overpowered after a certain amount of time has passed. In my game right now they're roaming around the Riverlands razing every village they come across with no Starks to defend. I think it would be best if they were their own faction, as people have suggested, who focused on attacking the North and near Oldtown.

That's will be done in 0.5

Also, the Ironborn aren't really fond of horses and mounted combat, so I think that the only cavalry they get (if any at all) should be lightly armed and armored, instead of heavy as it is now. Fighting off Ironborn raiding parties up north in the early parts of the game and having their cavalry outstrip mine was more than a little odd.

Secondly, the Others don't really do anything once they spawn south of the wall, and are way way too easy to kill. I ran across a group of 40 with myself, 2 heroes, and a handful of mounted units (my forces were 10 to 12 total) and managed to wipe them all out without a single death or injury.

I'm playing on full damage with Good AI and full game speed, if that makes a difference.

I like making maps and scripting general rules and sequences, but balancing, unfortunately, never was my strong side. That didn't mean that I wouldn't do it, but that process could take a quite long time... If anyone can land me a hand of help in that aspect, that would be great!
At that moment I've gived best existed armor and weapons to White Walkers, and great skills too... If it's not enough... Well, I'll try to empower them even more...

Also, I've run into a few minor bugs and oddities, and I'll see if I can come up with a list in the next few days.

OK, I'll wait for your list.

Simple stuff like towns without snow in their scenes up north near the wall, or towns in the Riverlands that are covered in snow.

I know about it and planning to fix, but I can't promise that it will be done in nearest release. Sorry.

 

[Sparehawk]

I'm still insisting, that creating a permanent link between Renly and Tyrells is a wrong decision, just as giving whole Stormlands to Stannis.

Although it's true that Renly was not the leader of the Tyrells for long, I think the appendix in the back of "A Clash of Kings" can help clarify for us.  Martin lists "The Kings and their Courts".

The King on the Iron Throne - Joffrey Baratheon
The King in the Narrow Sea - Stannis Baratheon
The King in Highgarden - Renly Baratheon
The King in the North - Robb Stark
The Queen Across the Water - Daenaerys Targaryen

Although Renly was a Baratheon, he was definitely the leader of the Tyrells and Highgarden.  Technically, Joffrey was also a Baratheon, even though he was clearly a puppet king for the Lannisters.  After Robert's death, the Baratheons were a house split.

I'll think about it...

 

[Sparehawk]

Another suggestion - I don't know if there's a way to do this, but I wish there was some way to "customize" your troops armor and clothing once you're joined a faction with the livery of your banner.  I always end up wearing the reinforced plate and mail, and I'd like for it to have an emblem or the heraldry of my faction, instead of the standard emblems and colors. Same things go for my heroes..

Well, I think it could be done, but I assume that will demand a quite big work at skripting and texturnig...
Maybe I'll try to made it in one of future releases...

 

[Jheral]

That's true. According to books, there are only five settlements in Westeros large enough to be called cities: King's Landing, Oldtown, Lannisport, Gulltown and White Harbour. There are also few towns mentioned: Duskendale, Stoney Sept, Maidenpool... All other mentioned settlemens marked as castles. However, M&B specificity demands that there should be a few cities, a bit more castles and lot of villages... So, I've decided to turn castles, that aren't belonged to any significant lord, to villages.
Also I've tried to preserve an original terrain control algorithm, when castles and cities are faction infuence centers and villages belongs to nearest center...

Map design would be that much easier if we had more than three settlement 'levels', huh? 
It's a pity most of the places mentioned in the books are either castles, cities or towns too big to be called villages. I suppose it's to be expected when just about all the POV characters are nobleborn, though...

 

[Beleg Strongbow]

Another suggestion - I don't know if there's a way to do this, but I wish there was some way to "customize" your troops armor and clothing once you're joined a faction with the livery of your banner.  I always end up wearing the reinforced plate and mail, and I'd like for it to have an emblem or the heraldry of my faction, instead of the standard emblems and colors. Same things go for my heroes..

Well, I think it could be done, but I assume that will demand a quite big work at skripting and texturnig...
Maybe I'll try to made it in one of future releases...

Well, I wouldn't waste a lot of time with it, since it would really be nothing but eye candy. And each troop type (Barathion Knight, Lannister Knight) has it's own distinct 'look' - I was just looking for a way to standardize my troops so my Stark and Tyrell Knights look similar in a battle.

It might be easier just to modify some of the armor available for the main character and heroes - however, I know absolutely nothing about modding, scripting, ect. so I don't know how much work would be involved.

There's a lot of material over at the TLD's forum about party balance and combat, if you are interested in balancing out the game's factions without doing a lot of playtesting.

 

[Gohda]

It wouldn't be too hard to get that going, we'd just need the textures (Not THAT hard, although I still lack fabric overlays and whatnot, so any armor I make will be basic), and a bit of changing around some stuff, which anyone could do with a bit of knowhow.

 

[Sparehawk]

It wouldn't be too hard to get that going, we'd just need the textures (Not THAT hard, although I still lack fabric overlays and whatnot, so any armor I make will be basic), and a bit of changing around some stuff, which anyone could do with a bit of knowhow.

I think, if such thing should be done, It should be done good. Thus I mean, that there should be 7 (or even more) copies of most part of existing armors and shields - with emblems of each House, and there should be a script, changing armor of all player's troops according to players loyality.
Am I wrong?

 

[Oroonin]

Speaking of costumized textures, I´ve seen the "ice" armour set in the merchants´ stock. Others trading parties? Also, the only night watch armour I´ve seen is plate, while the only one mentioned inthe books is mail. No biggie, but worth thinking about when/if doing house-specific stuff.
If it gets done, it would, I feel, suffice having maybe a leather set and a mailset for each major house and possibly one or the other from one minor of each faction- Clegane mail...

 

[HokieBT]

ok, I've been reading for a few days and have some general comments.  There are some very good idea's being raised (story lines, major events, adding more quests, etc) but I think those definitely need to be future plans and they require a lot more work. As since Sparehawk is primarily working on this now its also up to him what he wants to work on.    But in my opinion, there is some minor tweaking or balancing that needs to be done first and once we have a good baseline we can try to add more functionality on to it.  The main reason I play M&B is so I can quickly start the game, fight some random battles, and then exit so for me the basic game should take priority over larger concepts and changes and I do like that its open-ended.  I also think we have to remember that this is a mod based on ASoIaF but not an exact replica of the books so it seems fine to take some liberties in order to have some gameplay balance, etc.  This mod is very very good, and everybody has done an excellent job, I know many of these points have been discussed but we probably still need to review the following....

1) decide on the different factions

I would vote for the earlier suggestion of the following breakdown. Give Renly and Brienne to Highgarden, Stannis can be separate, and if possible switch Greyjoys to a small faction and the Vale neutral.  Maybe in a future mod the Vale would change loyalties but for now just have it be neutral.

- The North, with the Twins and Riverrun
- The West, with King's Landing
- Highgarden/The Reach, led by Renly Baratheon (w/ Brienne as a knight)
- Dragonstone and The Narrow Sea, with the Stormlands, led by Stannis Baratheon
- Dorne
- The Iron Islands
- A neutral Vale

2) villages, towns, cities, etc

fix any display issues with the villages (no snow in the north), missing village mayors, add a goods merchant to castle black, potentially switch a few villages to castles etc.  putting Janos Slynt as lord of Harrenhal would probably work.

3) NPC characters

rename a few of the NPC characters like the individuals in the castle black tavern, a few of the weapon smiths or the tavern keepers in the bigger cities if we have some names to use, etc.  Make sure NPC's are on the right faction depending on what we decide on #1 above.  Also, Nights watch upgrades to slave drivers so that upgrade path needs to be fixed.

4) items

potentially remove a few of the items like the Japanese ones that came from the BoW mod.  Black gauntlets would be cool and i'd like to add a few more uniques like Rhaegar's helm, greaves, gauntlets.  Black/grey leather armor and boots for the nights watch, etc.  The Valyrian Axe is cool and is supposedly with House Celtigar of Claw Isle so does the name "Lord Celtigar's Axe" work?  Maybe some minor tweaks to the textures of the current Valyrian items since the texture on the blade doesn't seem to be consistent (different on top then bottom). Also, I know the Oathkeeper sword wasn't forged yet at the time of this mod but it would be pretty cool to see a reddish valyrian steel blade....

5) balance or fixing the factions and enemies

This is tough to manage but currently Greyjoys seem overpowered and Others are weak.  What about the sizes of the other factions and their number of troops?  Since the AI is going to control a lot of this we don't want some getting too powerful too quickly, etc.  Somebody said Tyrell didn't have horses but I though that was fixed in the 0.3 updated troops file and the 0.4 release seems to have those changes.... random question, should Others have horses?

6) textures or other graphics

do we need flags created for some characters or any more textures (like horses for the Others) ?  also, a lot of other mods have created some very cool models so maybe some of those should be integrated.  Is anything else out there that we should drop in?  I suggested the town seige fix which Sparehawk integrated which I think was great, I'm not sure if there is anything else that people have seen that we could use?

7) minor coding changes

In the 0.3 release I think Chivalric switched it so we now get different amounts of money for our prisoners so that was very cool.  Currently there is no way to leave a faction once you give your oath to a lord and I know a few other mods have written some dialog to call the function that allows this.  One of the mods increased the damage so the battles were faster and switched food to only be eaten once a week, is that of any interest to anybody?  Are there other minor code changes that could be done that might make the overall gameplay better?

other bugs

try to post any bugs you find, if possible maybe try to group them into one post so its easier to review?

9) what is the priority of these items and who is going to do this work?

right now Sparehawk is the main person working on this mod so I'll let him answer this question.      I would like to help out so have been reviewing the modding documentation and tools but am not really a coder but will try to figure some things out.    I'm not sure if you have done it yet but have been working on modifying the troops.txt file to rename some of the NPC characters and maybe fix the issue with some missing mayors, etc.  I also edited the items file to add rhaegar's helm, gauntlets, and greaves so could post that if you wanted.  I was hesitant to remove any of the japanese items because these are used by some of the NPC characters I believe. Is there any other specific area's you need help with?

Anyway, I know this post is long, and a lot of this has been discussed before but I just wanted to try and summarize some of my thoughts.  In general this is an awesome mod, I just want to make sure we fix a few minor things first before thinking about the next step.

 

[Sparehawk]

That's true. According to books, there are only five settlements in Westeros large enough to be called cities: King's Landing, Oldtown, Lannisport, Gulltown and White Harbour. There are also few towns mentioned: Duskendale, Stoney Sept, Maidenpool... All other mentioned settlemens marked as castles. However, M&B specificity demands that there should be a few cities, a bit more castles and lot of villages... So, I've decided to turn castles, that aren't belonged to any significant lord, to villages.
Also I've tried to preserve an original terrain control algorithm, when castles and cities are faction infuence centers and villages belongs to nearest center...

Map design would be that much easier if we had more than three settlement 'levels', huh? 

Huh? Not sure I'm understanding how it helps...
Actually, at this moment so called "villages" should be towns and it's an only thing that should be changed IMHO. Thus, it could be quite eazy to replace "village" to "town" everywhere in game texts, however needs much enough work to make their scenes looks more urban.

 

[Sparehawk]

9) what is the priority of these items and who is going to do this work?

right now Sparehawk is the main person working on this mod so I'll let him answer this question. 

Well, at this moment my vision of mod's future is:

a) Version 0.4.1. I'm working on it now and plan to release it in coming weekend or somewhen on next week. It will include new textures for White Walkers and their armor, different textures for banners inside castles, renamed NPCs in Castle Black, fix for Dornish Horsemen and Night's Watch upgrades line. Ah, and missed village elders too. And giving Harrenhal to Slynt. Maybe a couple of minor changes as bonus...

b) Version 0.5. Main goals - factions rework, integrating sailing code from "Pirates of Calderia" mod, tweaking AI scripts to give different factions different goals. To be more concrete, at now I'm hesitating over a choice between 7 factions (your proposal) and 9 factions (the same ones, but Tully and Stannis have own factions). Then, "Five Kings" should have a basic AI type and fight each other, striving for Iron Trone, while others would choose to ally one of Kings and share choosen suzerain's attitudes. Also there should be some landscape tweaking - for examle, landscape at Dorne is quite rough at now...

c) Version 0.6 or 0.7 - optional story-mode, global events, quests, character creation - if there will be no more important goals.

At the same time, there should be done some cosmetic and balance tweaking - villages/castles scenes editing, adding new armor and weapons, tweaking parameters of already existed troops. Truly said, I have a very rough notion about that part, but I'm sure that it should be done... If there will be someone who want to make it, that will be great.

 

[Sparehawk]

.... random question, should Others have horses?

AFAIK, there was a some kind of antipathy between Others and all living creatuires...

6) textures or other graphics

do we need flags created for some characters or any more textures (like horses for the Others) ?  also, a lot of other mods have created some very cool models so maybe some of those should be integrated.  Is anything else out there that we should drop in?  I suggested the town seige fix which Sparehawk integrated which I think was great, I'm not sure if there is anything else that people have seen that we could use?

I think, it would be cool to add several new map icons (such as swordsmen, white walker, ruined castle etc.), also there should be dragons if Daenerys' invasion would be included to mod...
And ships... Now I'm planning to use drakkars from "PoC", but I'm quite sure that Greyjoy's ships should look different...