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A fix for spears and cavalry (video)

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khuzaithorde

Recruit

I feel that cavalry could be improved by:

1. Not allowing them to charge head on through a braced formation (especially spears/pikes)
2. If charging into a braced formation, horses will refuse the charge
3. Being able to have a successful charge only if hitting infantry from the flank or from behind

Credit goes to JakeAlpha for making my idea reality (The mod is still work in progress)
https://www.nexusmods.com/mountandblade2bannerlord/mods/813

I feel TW is doing a great job so far and this game shows a lot of promise

Let me know what you think
 

badman

Sergeant
The enemy either does nothing (they are outnumbered), in which case you use overpowered archery to kill them, or they just charge you instantly and you don't even have time to think about formations and flanking etc. These kind of things work in TW, but M&B is so fast paced everything just ends up being a total cluster**** every time.
 

bestmods168

Sergeant
i don't know man. I want the charge to try and break the formation. It should be up to the commander whether his cavs stop or not.
 

khuzaithorde

Recruit
The enemy either does nothing (they are outnumbered), in which case you use overpowered archery to kill them, or they just charge you instantly and you don't even have time to think about formations and flanking etc. These kind of things work in TW, but M&B is so fast paced everything just ends up being a total cluster**** every time.

I think they'll improve it, still got a lot of time before it comes out of early access.
 

johncage213

Recruit
The enemy either does nothing (they are outnumbered), in which case you use overpowered archery to kill them, or they just charge you instantly and you don't even have time to think about formations and flanking etc. These kind of things work in TW, but M&B is so fast paced everything just ends up being a total cluster**** every time.

that's by design probably. if they wanted to be more realistic, the ai should advance more slowly and in an organized fashion properly using battle formations. sending infantry charges when very close to you and using shields when advancing.

this naturally would require enemies to walk rather than run everywhere.
 

Puerkl8r

Sergeant at Arms
It's a myth that Cav never frontally charged during battle and only charged flanks. During the early Medieval times, before massed pikes became a common tactic, frontal cavalry charges were not uncommon and they were successful. It really wasn't until Pikes and Halberds wielded by trained and disciplined infantry becoming much more prevalent that caused Cav to have to stop frontal charging. At that point it became the norm for cav to either charge from flanks or even dismount and fight on foot as heavy infantry.

It's a very video gamey thing that dictates that cav get beaten by spears so soundly or that they have to rear charge to be effective.
 

Yangbang

Sergeant
WBWF&SVC
It should be up to the commander whether his cavs stop or not.
I think it's actually more up to the horse.

It really wasn't until Pikes and Halberds wielded by trained and disciplined infantry becoming much more prevalent that caused Cav to have to stop frontal charging. At that point it became the norm for cav to either charge from flanks or even dismount and fight on foot as heavy infantry.
So you're saying it was a myth but also not a myth?
 

bm01

Sergeant
The way they handled it is quite smart! Basically when the horse is charging into the formation, they give invulnerability to the horse, register a fake blow with high damage which will trigger the rear up, then remove the invulnerability. Sounds silly maybe but given the tools modders have I think that's the most elegant way of doing it.
 

Puerkl8r

Sergeant at Arms
I think it's actually more up to the horse.


So you're saying it was a myth but also not a myth?
Sorta, as with anything, it's nuanced. During the period the bannerlord 2 tries to depict, early medieval, frontal charges with heavy cav was very much a thing that was done and still effective.

The idea that it was never done at any point, or was a bad strategy at any point is the myth. This is part of what shaped military tactics changes. Massed Pikes and the advent of the Halberd were strategies that were developed specifically to counter how effective frontal cavalry charges were. After that point, frontal cavalry charges were rendered (mostly) ineffective as along as those units were on the field and deployed to counter a charge.
 

Tork789

Knight at Arms
WBNWWF&SM&BVC
It really wasn't until Pikes and Halberds wielded by trained and disciplined infantry becoming much more prevalent that caused Cav to have to stop frontal charging. At that point it became the norm for cav to either charge from flanks or even dismount and fight on foot as heavy infantry.
Except that it's not true at all. Heavy cavalry continued charging up until 20th century. Refer to gendarmes, winged hussars for 16-17th century examples. They charged against pike&shot formations a lot and were often successful.
 

Dabos37

Sergeant Knight at Arms
Uhmmm talking about singleplayer, cavalry is currently ok and I usually lose a lot of Knights against recruits, especially Vlandian Recruits with lances. Sure, spears could get improved against cav but maybe this would make cavalry not good enough. I find archers much more effective than cavalry currently, give me some Fians and I can destroy huge armies without almost losing men.
 

khuzaithorde

Recruit
It's a myth that Cav never frontally charged during battle and only charged flanks. During the early Medieval times, before massed pikes became a common tactic, frontal cavalry charges were not uncommon and they were successful. It really wasn't until Pikes and Halberds wielded by trained and disciplined infantry becoming much more prevalent that caused Cav to have to stop frontal charging. At that point it became the norm for cav to either charge from flanks or even dismount and fight on foot as heavy infantry.

It's a very video gamey thing that dictates that cav get beaten by spears so soundly or that they have to rear charge to be effective.
Do you have any examples for early medieval frontal charges being common? From what I can see, it depends on terrain and if the enemy has gaps in the formation, I can't image horses charging against a solid shield wall?
 

badman

Sergeant
Cavalry charges were like a game of chicken. If the infantry doesn't break, the cavalry could always cancel the charge. It takes a lot of nerve on both sides. In those cases where both held their nerve, then it could go either way. There are cases where well trained men-at-arms have under-estimated infantry and been slaughtered, one of William Wallace's battles went this way, I forget which one. Add there's other cases of a few hundred cavalry routing thousands of infantry, e.g. Norman knights in Cerami.

A lot of it depends on the time period too. An unarmoured horse and rider with a spear is a different prospect to a full plate knight and horse with a couched lance. Superficially they seem similar, but they are totally different challenges to infantry.
 

Tork789

Knight at Arms
WBNWWF&SM&BVC

This video is really interesting for understanding horses on the battlefield.
While generally this video is informative, the guy doesn't strike me as a very confident rider and his relationship with a horse, while adorable, doesn't reflect how a mounted warrior would treat his horse. A better example would be kokpar which is basically a rugby with horses and with a dead lamb instead of a ball. Example:

Coming from a country with strong cavalry traditions I can assure you: a stallion, and especially an alpha stallion will charge at literally anything and will f*ck your sh*t up by any means necessary, he'll even bite you. It doesn't even require a lot of training to do that. It'll need training to obey you, but certainly not to getting used to a stick coming near his head.
 

Yangbang

Sergeant
WBWF&SVC
Coming from a country with strong cavalry traditions I can assure you: a stallion, and especially an alpha stallion will charge at literally anything and will f*ck your sh*t up by any means necessary, he'll even bite you. It doesn't even require a lot of training to do that. It'll need training to obey you, but certainly not to getting used to a stick coming near his head.

From the confidence of your statements. Its a wonder why in history we ever developed armor and stirrups. I get it tho, a man on a horse is a pretty fierce thing. But you do notice how often and quickly those riders and horses are tumbling on the floor. Which would be the death sentence of both rider and horse. So yes a medieval cavalry charge could do what they did in that horse rugby. And then congratulations, you lost all your cavalry and only squashed the front line of infantry. Valuable warhorses and professional riders (that were mostly nobles and rich men that fought more for money and glory, not to death) dead for the cost of the enemies average footmen.
 

Tork789

Knight at Arms
WBNWWF&SM&BVC
From the confidence of your statements. Its a wonder why in history we ever developed armor and stirrups.
How do these questions arise from my statements?

So yes a medieval cavalry charge could do what they did in that horse rugby. And then congratulations, you lost all your cavalry and only squashed the front line of infantry. Valuable warhorses and professional riders (that were mostly nobles and rich men that fought more for money and glory, not to death) dead for the cost of the enemies average footmen.
Yeah sure and that did happen. And the opposite also happened and infantry got trampled and scattered. We're discussing here if horses are able to charge or not and I was answering that question.
 

Puerkl8r

Sergeant at Arms
Except that it's not true at all. Heavy cavalry continued charging up until 20th century. Refer to gendarmes, winged hussars for 16-17th century examples. They charged against pike&shot formations a lot and were often successful.

There are certain exceptions like the winged hussars, but I'm not going to bring up every edge case to further prove my point. The point is, frontal charges by cav were not uncommon during the time period.
 

khuzaithorde

Recruit
Cavalry charges were like a game of chicken. If the infantry doesn't break, the cavalry could always cancel the charge. It takes a lot of nerve on both sides. In those cases where both held their nerve, then it could go either way. There are cases where well trained men-at-arms have under-estimated infantry and been slaughtered, one of William Wallace's battles went this way, I forget which one. Add there's other cases of a few hundred cavalry routing thousands of infantry, e.g. Norman knights in Cerami.

A lot of it depends on the time period too. An unarmoured horse and rider with a spear is a different prospect to a full plate knight and horse with a couched lance. Superficially they seem similar, but they are totally different challenges to infantry.

I think you summed it up well. In reality, a unit like the tier 1 recruits would break instantly when faced with cavalry. Difficult to recreate this game of chicken and make it fun in a game.
 
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