A few "points" on why combat(armour) is more satisfying when using realistic combat mod compared to vanilla

How do you prefer combat in Bannerlord?

  • Vanilla

    Votes: 13 14.9%
  • Realistic Battle

    Votes: 64 73.6%
  • Drastic Battle/other mod

    Votes: 10 11.5%

  • Total voters
    87

Users who are viewing this thread

I find it pretty reasonable that 300 men beat 50 men. perhaps another medieval fighting expert can enlighten us how he can realistically fight 1v6.

Not possible to compare to real life cause the game doesn't simulate psychological aspect of fight and stamina is not represented in any way.

About 1 vs 6 it's not hard to explain. In reality more than 2 people cannot properly attack You at the same time cause they will get in each others way. Especially when they are not trained to act in a group. And when we talk about a group of 50 well trained soldiers acting together against a mob it's not 1 vs 6 it's 50 man group against 300 individuals. Acting together they could easily win.

I agree with @Apothat that lower tiers should be able to compensate higher tiers by numbers but I don't agree that recruits should. Maybe a t3 infantry should and basically they are, both in vanilla and in RBM.
 
Your reality is movies. Our reality, people get swarmed, lynched, mob'd. Even professional fighters preferably avoid taking on multiple opponents at once.
Most likely scenario to happen to that legionnaire fighting 6 recruits, he gets tackled on, arms & legs restricted, shoved on floor with his head being continually bashed in. Perhaps he had time to have a swing or two and even got to injure/kill one.
 
Your reality is movies. Our reality, people get swarmed, lynched, mob'd. Even professional fighters preferably avoid taking on multiple opponents at once.
Most likely scenario to happen to that legionnaire fighting 6 recruits, he gets tackled on, arms & legs restricted, shoved on floor with his head being continually bashed in. Perhaps he had time to have a swing or two and even got to injure/kill one.
In medieval (and ancient) battles one side mostly broke after 10-20% casualites. 50 Legionaries will throw 100 pila at 300 recruits, 30-60 dead are were reasonable just from those 2 volleys, so they should win, more so if they are at some chokepoint, on hill etc. We could use numerous battles in ancient times as example when Romans were able to use their tactics and defeated much more numerous foes.
 
Is what I meant, my bad. I just noticed your the author of RBM. Appreciate the your mode, the ai module, siege fixes and projectile/spear rework. I have less enthusiasm toward massive armor values.

Have you tried modifying units health?
 
Your reality is movies. Our reality, people get swarmed, lynched, mob'd. Even professional fighters preferably avoid taking on multiple opponents at once.
Most likely scenario to happen to that legionnaire fighting 6 recruits, he gets tackled on, arms & legs restricted, shoved on floor with his head being continually bashed in. Perhaps he had time to have a swing or two and even got to injure/kill one.

Not quite. You're still looking at it by single man but it's not like that. You have 50 man standing in formation with better armors and weapons. Even if 300 surrounds them not more than 2 will hit at the same time. And they will hit with ****ty weapons that probably won't even injure them. And you cannot compare it to 6 vs 1 cause its not like each one of those 50 man is surrounded by six enemys.

You can also try Drastic battle or something. It's changing the formula of dmg applied instead of changing troops or gear stats.
 
Well now we talking about specifics outside of just simply numbers that can change the scenario but people have nagged me previously for presenting realism as well such as stamina ect. We all can twist and present a million of variables to defend our point..
 
Well now we talking about specifics outside of just simply numbers that can change the scenario but people have nagged me previously for presenting realism as well such as stamina ect. We all can twist and present a million of variables to defend our point..


This one has different approach. It's changing how dmg is calculated based on vanilla armor values.
 
Anyway before I go I must emphasis yet again how bad it would be for simply implementing RBM directly into the game. RBM does make the game easier on the player side, it seem your mod does not do anything to help out militia either) the game however already offers multiple ways of making the game easier ( cheats, campaign options, save scum, mods) but us players who want an harder game are **** out of luck. There needs to be a bigger different between tiers of units yes, but those armor values are not the solution. Lot of people may find it fun having undying units but I doubt it would be for very long.
 
Anyway before I go I must emphasis yet again how bad it would be for simply implementing RBM directly into the game. RBM does make the game easier on the player side, it seem your mod does not do anything to help out militia either) the game however already offers multiple ways of making the game easier ( cheats, campaign options, save scum, mods) but us players who want an harder game are **** out of luck. There needs to be a bigger different between tiers of units yes, but those armor values are not the solution. Lot of people may find it fun having undying units but I doubt it would be for very long.
Militia got much better gear than in vanilla, siege weapons cause attrition in strategy map phase, all melee militia got lot of throwing weapons in order to increase their effect in sieges (where they spend lot of time standing on a wall so javelins come in handy).
 
I have never seen drastic battle before, I have to give it a try. I'll be on vacations for two weeks from 2 august so I'll be able to clock in some hours. Hopefully it is compatible with philo ai /siege fixes.
 
Is what I meant, my bad. I just noticed your the author of RBM. Appreciate the your mode, the ai module, siege fixes and projectile/spear rework. I have less enthusiasm toward massive armor values.

Have you tried modifying units health?
Unit health is the gamey way of doing things..... is body builder going to survive more mace injuries to the head or spine, or is he going to survive more deep wound from swords? Probably not. Only malus/bonus health that seems reasonable to me is like +/- 20 points (so 80 hp for looters, recruits and 120 for tier 5-6). Also too much bonus health creates situation when naked guys survive headshots from war bows or couched lances which is something we would like to avoid because its silly.
 
Anyway before I go I must emphasis yet again how bad it would be for simply implementing RBM directly into the game. RBM does make the game easier on the player side, it seem your mod does not do anything to help out militia either) the game however already offers multiple ways of making the game easier ( cheats, campaign options, save scum, mods) but us players who want an harder game are **** out of luck. There needs to be a bigger different between tiers of units yes, but those armor values are not the solution. Lot of people may find it fun having undying units but I doubt it would be for very long.
Dont worry they are not going to do that because its too much work, also armor values are just tip of the iceberg, how armor work in RBM is totally different from vanilla so 40 armor in RBM is different from 40 vanilla armor. Weapon damages also work different, you can for example hit for 150-200 with war bows to the naked body under right curcumstances and melee weapons are also in ballpark of 60-200 damage to the naked body.
 
@Philozoraptor I have a question. I'm using

This mod changes troop trees entirely but it doesn't affect militia.

Do You think it will work if I put Your troop overhaul before it in load order so I get the changes You did to troops that were not changed by this mod?
 
I find it pretty reasonable that 300 men beat 50 men. perhaps another medieval fighting expert can enlighten us how he can realistically fight 1v6.
You're ignoring two important things: they're not talking realism, they're talking wage cost and game balance/progression. 50 Legionaries cost more money and effort in wages, training and upgrades than 300 recruits. So they need to be worth that cost in a fight to be worthwhile to the player. And yet, not only do the Legionaries lose, they lose overwhelmingly. There are 200 recruits left by the end. So why ever bother using high-tier infantry at all when massed recruits are more cost effective, and a handful of Fians or Khan's Guard are more effective than both?

Regarding realism, it's not just "men" vs "men". It's "untrained and unequipped men" vs "well-trained, well-equipped men." I'm actually okay with 300 T1 units beating 50 T5 units and agree with you on that, but the casualty margin should be a lot closer (only ~50 recruits should still be alive, not 200), and the wage cost for T5 units should be lowered to 5x that of a recruit (it is currently 6x).

Our reality, people get swarmed, lynched, mob'd. Even professional fighters preferably avoid taking on multiple opponents at once.
Obviously they prefer not to, but they can if they have to.
Five unarmored, weak men with swords cannot seriously hurt a well-armored, strong man with a sword by just attacking him. His entire body is protected and difficult to injure, but he can wound any of them easily, since their entire bodies are exposed. The only way they can inflict real injury is getting him to the ground, but that comes at the risk to each man of being slashed or stabbed in the gut, or the face.
Multiple opponents also get in each others' way.
As others have also said, there's the morale factor. Even if theoretically you and your four mates can take on the guy in armor, once you see two people get stabbed, do you really want to be next?

T5 troops should be able to fight 1v5 against recruits and have a good chance of winning. Here are some historical examples for smaller, better-equipped forces defeating much larger but worse equipped forces; or overwhelmingly defeating worse-equipped forces of a similar size.

Cassel: 14,500 men-at-arms and soldiers fight 15,000 rebels. The rebels have 3,100 casualties. The soldiers have only 17.
Frankenhausen: ~6000 mercenaries fight ~8000 peasants. 7000 peasants die, and only 6 mercenaries die.
Otumba- The Spanish (who were low on gunpowder) and their native allies defeat the Aztecs while outnumbered 12 to 1.
Mello - Soldiers and knights fight rebels, being outnumbered 3 to 1. The soldiery annihilate the rebels with only light casualties.
Croatian-Slovene Peasant Revolt: 8000-1200 rebels vs 5000 soldiers, few to no casualties for the soldiers, 3000 casualties for the rebels.
Battle of the Standard: 16,000 mostly unarmoured Scots are beaten by 10,000 mostly armoured English soldiers. The English suffer low casualties, the Scots suffer ~12,000 killed or routed.
 
Last edited:
@Philozoraptor I have a question. I'm using

This mod changes troop trees entirely but it doesn't affect militia.

Do You think it will work if I put Your troop overhaul before it in load order so I get the changes You did to troops that were not changed by this mod?
My overhaul is just a rewrite of vanilla file, I am just modyfying already existing troops but I am not adding new ones, thats why its safe to add or remove from ongoing campaign. Any mod that uses Adonay´s troop replacer (or something like that) is compatible because it adds replaces whats written in the spnpccharacters (regardless of whether its vanilla file or RBM file) when the game loads.
 
I agree with @Apothat that lower tiers should be able to compensate higher tiers by numbers but I don't agree that recruits should. Maybe a t3 infantry should and basically they are, both in vanilla and in RBM.
Just so I'm clear, that video was just demonstrating that the game -- as is, right now, no mods -- already favors numbers of troops over tier of troops. I was not saying 300 recruits should beat 50 legionaries, I was just showing that they will.
Your reality is movies. Our reality, people get swarmed, lynched, mob'd. Even professional fighters preferably avoid taking on multiple opponents at once.
Most likely scenario to happen to that legionnaire fighting 6 recruits, he gets tackled on, arms & legs restricted, shoved on floor with his head being continually bashed in. Perhaps he had time to have a swing or two and even got to injure/kill one.
Realistically, not all of the 300 are going to dive right into the melee. That's the real Hollywood thing, because watching a thin crust of eager fighters go back-and-forth with each other until one side feels confident enough to charge would be less exciting than the wild, swirling melee. As far as gameplay goes, players want to dive into the thick of things as well, while that same wild, swirling melee action provides constant action and is very streamable, which makes it (y) for games.
 
I would say that the game lacks mechanics. For example light infantry means low tier and not separate tree where You can get t6 light inf so you really don't heave a choice.

I think that heavy infantry should show up on t3 being a separate tree than light inf and high tier units should be like 1 out of 20 soldiers.

I don't like the system where it's all about grinding to have pure t6 army otherwise You cannot be effective.

There's no tactic or strategy. Map is wide open everywhere. There's no chokepoints or any reason to keep a castle. Battles are mostly about which group to charge first (and its either range or inf).

There's also the whole system where You cannot lose cause it means you'll stat from 0.
There should be an option for tactical retreat.

I like RMB only because it allows to fight more tactical in some way even if in the end its just endless hitting enemys in heavy armor.
Sounds a bit like you want the With Fire and Sword sort of affair. Or maybe Viking Conquest's super hard to train armies.

You did pull up Jus ad Bellum, and now I'm having a shot at my own 'treeless' experiment. I feel like I enjoy my M&B when I don't have a full army of only the best, and I'm hoping what I have will be something to itch that need (albeit with my own ideas on what factions ought to be).
 
Sounds a bit like you want the With Fire and Sword sort of affair. Or maybe Viking Conquest's super hard to train armies.

You did pull up Jus ad Bellum, and now I'm having a shot at my own 'treeless' experiment. I feel like I enjoy my M&B when I don't have a full army of only the best, and I'm hoping what I have will be something to itch that need (albeit with my own ideas on what factions ought to be).

I love Vikimg Conquest ?

As for hard to train armies yes I'm all into it. However the game lacks split between regular, professional soldiers and levy that can be raised for campaign only. I like the militia thing in fiefs and I feel like it could be extended to roaming parties.

This would give choice to the player to either build up full professional army if they can afford it or just keep a stack of veterans and raise levies whenever needed (if You own a fief) or hire mercenaries just for the time of campaign but not by running around but hiring a full stack of mercenaries (random troops) in single place.

But that are just my dreams about what BL could be. For now I'll stick to RBM and Jus ad bellum cause they make the game more enjoyable for me.
 
Regarding realism, it's not just "men" vs "men". It's "untrained and unequipped men" vs "well-trained, well-equipped men." I'm actually okay with 300 T1 units beating 50 T5 units and agree with you on that, but the casualty margin should be a lot closer (only ~50 recruits should still be alive, not 200), and the wage cost for T5 units should be lowered to 5x that of a recruit (it is currently 6x).
When we talk about realistic battles. one must realize the effect of morale has on combat. and the effect experience has on morale.

300 recruits that's never seen death. vs 50 men that survived by crawling out of dead body piles again and again... is not as simple as a 300 vs 50 units dps race in an RTS
also the affect of being surrounded / cornered with no escape means they'll fight to the death instead of rout and get cut down while fleeing

admittedly the in game morale system does have some of an effect. but not nearly as much in melee. a group of 300 looters approaching my archer group will lose more to rout than those being shot down. but in melee combat they don't run nearly as much which in my opinion is opposite of reality. people throughout history have charged against projectiles despite suffering casualties. but in the melee. only the most disciplined troops can stand suffering casualties without breaking
 
Back
Top Bottom