SP - General A different approach to army building: level up/equipment

[Tryvenyal]

@JurgenJuggernaut Have you read the thread or only the OP? @Mikal Manfriedson and I has changed the suggestion quite abit Just so we know which suggestion you are disagreeing with.

@Mikal Manfriedson, maybe we should update the OP?

 

[JurgenJuggernaut]

@JurgenJuggernaut Have you read the thread or only the OP? @Mikal Manfriedson and I has changed the suggestion quite abit Just so we know which suggestion you are disagreeing with.

@Mikal Manfriedson, maybe we should update the OP?

The main post, sorry, for not reading the whole dump me, will update my comment.

Yep update it xD.

@Mikal Manfriedson
"But you are of course entitled to your opinion. I just do not share it. I mean...are we talking the same gear items? Your only novelty is that you can give them at any time while in my model you can only give them to them on upgrade. I do not get, what is complicated in both systems!? *scratches head*"

What I meant is having units leveling up for example 5 - 10 - 15 - 20 levels with the same gear ("Recruit gear"), and having as you have said "Gear" item, that upgrades the equipment quality gear of the unit independant to their level, thing with this system is that is way complicated.

Then there would be 5 Tier gears:

• Tier 0 [culture] Civilian Gear (This is for farmers and the like)
• Tier 1 [culture] Recruit Gear (This is the starting gear of recruits)
• Tier 2 [culture] Soldier Gear
• Tier 3 [culture] Veteran Gear
• Tier 4 [culture] Elite Gear

Note: Doesnt matter which they are archers, infantry, riders or nobles.

So for example: khuzait Peasant (lvl 5) can be upgraded with a Gear of any Tier, you dont need a T2 to upgrade to T3. You can be T0 and use a T4, but his stats are those of a lvl 5 (or his current level). Upgrading levels wouldnt cost gold, only increases wage. We would use gold for the gear and horses.

Khuzait Peasant (Lvl 5) 5 gold wage	Can be upgraded to; Khuzait Peasant (Recruit) Khuzait Peasant (Soldier) Khuzait Peasant (Veteran) Khuzait Peasant (Elite)
Levels up to Khuzait Nomad (lvl 10)

Then Khuzait Peasant (Recruit/Soldier/Veteran/Elite) can still be upgraded (level up) to Khuzait Nomad, thing is under this system the troop tree would "deform" and change way to much, horse upgrades would need horse still, thats way I said it was complicated.

Note: I would also say that horses to work like gears to make the troop three more flexible. But that basically would change the whole troop tree, to having 2 types archer and infantry from which they can become mounted ones.

The whole idea behind this, is that Veteranity does not has to do with gear quality. Most medieval systems and also other governement systems most troops had to get their own gear, ex. Greek Hoplites inherited their armor from their fathers, most medieval armies had to pay for their gear, few like the Roman Empire provided such gear, or even pay to them.

That said the player itsef starts as a merc like band, still I like the idea of mercs not needing gear and instead having bigger wages. Plus under such system would help eco problem right now with parties and garrisons, since would mean your "regulars" get less wages, but instead they are provided with food and gear, this itself could become a Kingdom policy.

 

[Mikal Manfriedson]

Now do I understand it right, that you actually COULD have a Khuzait Recruit with the gear of a Khuzait Darkhan but still having the skills of a Recruit? And that we can level him up later to meet his gear ability-wise? That way you could give a recruit better gear making him 'survive' his training in the field easier. He would still earn recruit wages but can be upgraded later to higher tiers retaining his gear? Are we even able to bluff? Having seemingly harmless T2 troops that are actually veterans and 'fake' T6 troops, which are basically recruits? Oh, I can see a lot of deception here. Imagine parties running from your forces because they believe you are stronger...oh the irony.
Or have I understood something wrong?

 

[JurgenJuggernaut]

Now do I understand it right, that you actually COULD have a Khuzait Recruit with the gear of a Khuzait Darkhan but still having the skills of a Recruit? And that we can level him up later to meet his gear ability-wise? That way you could give a recruit better gear making him 'survive' his training in the field easier. He would still earn recruit wages but can be upgraded later to higher tiers retaining his gear? Are we even able to bluff? Having seemingly harmless T2 troops that are actually veterans and 'fake' T6 troops, which are basically recruits? Oh, I can see a lot of deception here. Imagine parties running from your forces because they believe you are stronger...oh the irony.
Or have I understood something wrong?

Yes, you did understand it, though my point wasnt deception at all, I would suggest a "tittle" or naming to make difference between one another, ex:
Khuzait Nomad "Elite", being Khuzait Nomad its Rank/Lvl, "Elite" its gear quality
Khuzait Darkhan "Recruit", "", "Recruit" its gear quality

This could be "option" to see or not the tier troops are wearing, The point is that gear doesnt make someone "veteran" just makes it easier not to be killed, but that gear costs. You we dont hinder leveling, also could be add a "wage" cost or something to simulate the cost of reparing/mantaining gear, thus high quality gear is expensive too in the long run.

 

[Tryvenyal]

Yes, you did understand it, though my point wasnt deception at all, I would suggest a "tittle" or naming to make difference between one another, ex:
Khuzait Nomad "Elite", being Khuzait Nomad its Rank/Lvl, "Elite" its gear quality
Khuzait Darkhan "Recruit", "", "Recruit" its gear quality

Excatly what would a "Khuzait Peasent(Elite)" look like? There are several T5 units he could evolve into, all with very different gear. And he does likely miss skills needed for a superior bow/horse. I think its´better to tie in equipment upgrades with unit upgrade.

Even more interestingly, what whould a "Vlandian Sharpshooter(Recruit)" do? All skills waisted, I guess, as he only wears farming tools?

And why not upgrade the troop, if he has the XP and you has the next level of armour for him? For me the gear is what costs in an unite promotion, there does not need to any direct monetary requirement, except increased wage.

 

[Tryvenyal]

Well, that was quite productive. Now it would be great if either the devs or a modder would take up the idea or others would join the discussion

I got this answer from Mexxico in another thread about making upgrades more expensive.

@Tryvenyal, we discussed this in other posts too. I also think equipment prices need a rework (not my area but write it consequently also). And also it is easy to make upgrades more expensive. However real problem is currently 1 x tier-5 troop is equal to 3 x looters in simulations and 1 x tier-5 troop is equal to 4 x looters at missions. So making them more expensive and hard to get will not make much sense. If we do this then upgrading troops will not be a logical behavior, leaving them at tier-2/3 will be more logical in current situation of game. I am not working on calculations of armor bonus effects or weapon damage calculations but only if we can make 1 x tier-5 troop = 6 / 7 / 8 x looter in both mission and simulations then we can want 2x 3x 4x costs for upgrading troops to high tiers like 4-5.

So first we should make high tier troops more powerful at both combat and simulations then these changes can make sense.

Also if we make looters give 25% of current value of loot (something like 50 gold from 20 looters) then newbie players can have more problems at early game. Of course real solution of this is increasing variety of starting level easy and rewarding issues but game does not have enough of them currently.