A 2H axe is not a baseball bat (Animation video test)

How do you think the swing animation for 2h axes should look like?


  • Total voters
    75

Users who are viewing this thread

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
wTTXM.png
New method edit:

I think I have found another method, imho this time more practical and efficient than the first one (fiddling with crafting parts). In this test I have modified in the item_usage_sets.xml file the parts containing in the item_usage_set id="twohanded_widegrip_axe" and item_usage_set id="twohanded_axe" information. These have been assigned "staff" animations instead of the native "2h" ones.

The test was carried out with the four two-handed axes that appear in the troop trees:
1.-Short Bill
2.-Drilled two-handed axe
3.-Southern broad two-handed axe
4.-Executioners axe

In the native we have the issue that I mention in this thread, a two handed axe is not a bat that can be wielded as a 2h sword, but rather as a polearm.

Apart from this, there is an inconsistency in Native when it comes to use on foot or mounted. It is curious how #1 and 2# are wielded as a 2h sword when fighting on foot, but when mounted, they operate as a 2h polearm.

The test changes all this. No more bat swings, this weapons are now polearms both on foot and on horseback. Take a look at this:


Perhaps the more observant may have noticed a detail in the modified version. When mounted, the swing arcs are reduced as I commented in this thread, something that for the use of any polearm should be (or so I understand it) in mounted combat.
I know that this thread should go in the suggestions section, however I have decided to place it here because it affects both SP and MP. Also, I open a poll and here it will have more visibility and therefore more people will participate in it.

To the point.

The 2h axes swing animations from the first time I saw them, gave me the impression that it was not an axe but a baseball bat that was being wielded. In my opinion the current animations for this type of weapon converge towards a grip more suitable for a 2h sword and it should not be so; but rather adopt the style of grip of a polearm. Also the position of the weapon should be adjusted so that the end of the handle rests inside the hand.


Here you have a video test:


I open the debate area and a poll to quantify the reactions to this issue.

---
Edit: More testing

Another short video test where it is shown in slowmo two different swings of two weapons that are within the same typology. The 2h axe is default, however the billhook is slightly shortened after a slight adjustment in the parameters to resemble the dimensions of the axe and thus get an equal test.


Do you see the hitting and recovery of the 2h axe (TwoHandedAxe category)? It is practically the swing effect that have the 2h swords, giving that effect of "striking with a bat". On the other hand with the billhook (TwoHandedPolearm category) the hitting and recovery is similar to the effect that this type of weapon plays.

Personally, I would leave the hits with "bat effect" for 2h axes with lengths below 60cm within a plausible practicality and for those with greater length (60cm onwards) a wide grip with polearm style swings.

Last Edit:

Maybe the solution is a simple definition of the weapon usage in the parameters. Take a look at this test:


This particular axe is the model sturgia_2haxe_2_t5 (aka Northern Decorated Two Handed Axe) and has a crafting_template="TwoHandedAxe" (this parameter contains the "baseball bat swing effect" animation).This axe is then built with two components available for crafting; the blade and the handle.


These two components are included in the crafting_template file as "TwoHandedAxe". Well, I thought why don't we adapt these crafting materials to behave like a polearm? Said and done; I have included them in the TwoHandedPolearm list and the effect is the one achieved.

Perhaps there is a much more direct way to achieve the results than I advocate here; however this procedure could be a cheap shortcut to not having to deal directly with the animations.
 
Last edited:

Blood Gryphon

Master Knight
WBVC
Oh god I can't unsee it now, what have you done.....

The suggested version is beautiful and looks so natural. TW please go ahead and copy+paste this one.
 

AndrewArt

Squire
The ease with which he swings those gianormous weapons is something else. Strongest man on earth. I am wondering, was it different when the combat in multiplayer was slowed down? Remember, people were complaining about slow combat and lack of skill, then they made it faster-paced. Were the animations better back then? I will take the suggested version anyway, agreed. That is a baseball bat swing
 

danEN

Banned
WBM&BWF&SNWVC
Every suggestion you give is always class and well thought out Terco, really hope Taleworlds has some brains and has your threads on bookmark. Gj as always man.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
Oh god I can't unsee it now, what have you done.....

The suggested version is beautiful and looks so natural. TW please go ahead and copy+paste this one.

The suggested animation is part of the pool of animations that Taleworlds has at its disposal. In my opinion the suggested animation is much more organic (notice how the right leg is realistically brought forward when striking).
---
@AndrewArt No no, if you look under the suggestion I have specified that the animation "has been slowed down" so that it can be better visualized. The swing time is the same in both animations, the only thing I emphasize is the way this kind of long axe Dane style weapons (bardiches, glaives, etc) (the 2h shorter axes is plausible a narrower grip as the default).

Take a look at this video, which is the closest thing to a real simulation with this type of weapon.


---
@danEN Thanks for the nice words. We must take this chance for feedbacking, we still have time IT's EaRlY aCcEsS! :iamamoron:
 
Last edited:

menuisier100

The animation looks fine to me. The correct way to exert the most force is always holding at the end of the grip and never your hands in the middle like you suggest. Not only you lessen your impact but can hurt your elbow. At least that;s how you do with sledge hammers.
 
Last edited:

Piconi

Fashionista
Section Moderator
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
I know that this thread should go in the suggestions section, however I have decided to place it here because it affects both SP and MP.
I suggested a while back to open for thread posting the board where you can see Singleplayer and Multiplayer sub-boards in it, for this very same reason, but it didn't pass, so i approve of this, and also of your suggestion here :party:
TW has a beast under their sleeve, they just need to relax, and unleash it !
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
I suggested a while back to open for thread posting the board where you can see Singleplayer and Multiplayer sub-boards in it, for this very same reason, but it didn't pass, so i approve of this, and also of your suggestion here :party:
TW has a beast under their sleeve, they just need to relax, and unleash it !

It is that there are inconsistencies (or so I understand) that should be put under the spotlight. I don't understand why a two-handed bardiche or dane axe looks like a baseball bat when it's swung and instead the voulge operates correctly under normal, realistic performance.

BadGood
giphy.gif
giphy.gif
 

sniparsexe

Knight at Arms
Another well post Terco, I'd definitely choose the suggested style. It feels much more natural. I think they should hire HEMAists and mo-cap them
 
if the modified animation keeps the lower limbs independent from the upper body and their rotation is only the result of a repositioning done by the AI due to the different dynamics and not a repositioning imposed by the modder, then it's a great job, otherwise no.
As you can see terco, in the native version, the lower limbs maintain the same position when making an attack and not moving.
In the case of the modified animation, the right leg moves in front of the left one.
In case you were moving and attacking rather than attacking while standing, the right leg would animate with the native movement animation or with the repositioning animation due to the attack animation, and therefore moving in front of the left leg and thus rendering the movement a "translation"?
In the first case it would be a great job, but you should be careful, during any transition from one type of animation to another, that they are not too different from each other.
In the second case then I would prefer the native system, which although not realistic from the point of view of the dynamics of the body, would maintain a greater animation clarity.
I hope I have not expressed myself badly.
 

Lord Irontoe

Master Knight
I like the wide grip swing much better, but it still looks a bit off to me. Normally, if you're taking a big swing with a heavy axe, the bottom hand is locked in place at the end of handle and the top hand slides up and down so that both hands are farthest apart at the start of the swing and closest together at the end. But its reversed in the animation, so its the top hand that's locked on the middle of the handle with the bottom hand sliding up to meet it at the end, and that just looks awkward. Though it also looks like the animation's cut off right at the end so maybe he's about to switch grips in the animation that would follow.

The swing looks right in the Voulge clip, but I can't tell if its just so fast that I'm missing the hand slide or if its a different animation.
 
Last edited:
From my own experience with axe (2H too) I have to say that is is not possible to generalize the grip that easily. If I want to be fast like when be able to deflect opposite strike I would ofc hold it with my stronger arm (right) in the middle of a handle. When about using the axe for strike I would still hold the middle to raise it but then to get maximum force and to brace impact I would lower my grip of (right hand) middle of handle to the end of it next to my left hand. I do not know whether that would be possible to put this transition to animation but if not then at least one for defensive (more to middle of handle) and one for offensive (more at the and of handle) action could be done.
 

vonbalt

Sergeant Knight
WBNWVCM&B
Don't have much too add here beyond that i fully agree, they even have the "correct" or closer to correct animation, it really looks much better with it.
 

WhiteEyedSh4rk

Sergeant Knight
WBWF&SVC
The native style doesen't look that good, but I don't like yours either, its way too extreme in my opinion. In a combat situation you would try to keep your weapon as much as possible infront of you, but in your suggested animation he draws out way way too far and stops the swing when its already somewhere behind his back, while also mooving his whole body frontwards. Its like an invitation to get hit.
 

geala

Sergeant at Arms
Both ways of using the axe are presumably good methods to be pierced/slashed long before the own hit lands. Nobody would bring the axe head back so much except the opponent was stunned or occupied elsewhere. But ok, it's a game and big heavy two-handers have to be swung with big gesture (although two-handed axes were not very heavy at all, they had mostly thin heads and could be used with great speed). The voulge grip and animation is better then the axe grip in my opinion.
 

AndrewArt

Squire
The suggested animation is part of the pool of animations that Taleworlds has at its disposal. In my opinion the suggested animation is much more organic (notice how the right leg is realistically brought forward when striking).
---
@AndrewArt No no, if you look under the suggestion I have specified that the animation "has been slowed down" so that it can be better visualized. The swing time is the same in both animations, the only thing I emphasize is the way this kind of long axe Dane style weapons (bardiches, glaives, etc) (the 2h shorter axes is plausible a narrower grip as the default).

Take a look at this video, which is the closest thing to a real simulation with this type of weapon.


---
@danEN Thanks for the nice words. We must take this chance for feedbacking, we still have time IT's EaRlY aCcEsS! :iamamoron:

I do love those kind of videos, I binged-watched them some time ago :d I think the swing can be indeed fast, but I think it would make sense to slow down future swings by a percent, so you can't continuously spam with the same speed. Because you can't keep up the speed with continuous blows, especially with a heavy polearm like that. Also you can't block forever, so there should also be a sort of shield stamina or knockdown mechanic if you are hit continuously as well... just wish for a more in-depth system really... Also it bothers me that the way you dodge arrows (especially in multiplayer) is by running serpentines like a buffoon... I mean, it makes sense, but I wish for something flashier. If an arrow was shot at me, or dodgeball thrown at me, I wouldn't move like that to dodge, I would actually side-step, so I wish for that sort of mechanic. The combat would look amazing and be way more fun in my opinion if there was a short/quick side-step mechanic instead the running in a straight line to the side and changing direction back and forth hoping you don't get hit. The dodging game would become a mind-game, the bowman would try to hit where he thinks the opponent would sidestep, and the infantry-man can go either way or just don't side-step at all. Don't know how much sense it makes, I just think it would be really fun if the combat was like that
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
From my own experience with axe (2H too) I have to say that is is not possible to generalize the grip that easily. If I want to be fast like when be able to deflect opposite strike I would ofc hold it with my stronger arm (right) in the middle of a handle. When about using the axe for strike I would still hold the middle to raise it but then to get maximum force and to brace impact I would lower my grip of (right hand) middle of handle to the end of it next to my left hand. I do not know whether that would be possible to put this transition to animation but if not then at least one for defensive (more to middle of handle) and one for offensive (more at the and of handle) action could be done.

Well, as you say you've experimented with them, I'll skip the technical explanation and go straight to the point with two videos.

An explanation from someone relevant you probably know2h short axes to cut wood. The "guiding" hand makes the handle slide to gain striking power and speed of recovery. Look at the techniques of both woodcutters, which one do you think is better?

Taleworlds knows well that they have to check the swing arcs of the animations;OurGloriousLeader commented early last year's closed alpha-beta period inArcs of swings compared to Warband (exciting visuals inside) , I've talked about the swings with polearm on horseback in Fix rubber waist effect when polearm swing mounted and other posts that I don't remember right now by more forumites.
 
Top Bottom