41 Lords in prison and still no peace? patch 1.5.10

[Blood Gryphon]

Could be.

Just bit annoyed with the no peace once you hit a threshold more or less(for me it was even earlier now in 1.6 than in the previous versions, there it would typically be at about 600-800 days, now I hit it at 400).

And that there cant be peace for peace sake is my issue, that there have to be that 2nd faction declareing war on the one you are in.
Maybe your solution fix this (I hope so).

Yeah something else that would be nice is to have a more clear picture of how your strength to fief ratio impacts how others kingdoms sees yours (weak [to many fiefs compared to strength], average[appropriate amount of fiefs compared to strength], or strong[less fiefs compared to strength]). @mexxico @MRay I imagine some kind of fief to strength ratio number in the diplomacy screen or even something to sort by in the encyclopedia (similar to how wealth is generalized, i know you can sort by either strength or fiefs right now but I think a ratio of the two is much more telling)

I think part of the issue is that recruiting is "too fast" why do it replenish daily, and not weekly - makeing losses in battle "matter" instead of the endless spam of recruit armies that comes to raid and end up in prison until they escape rince & repeat.

Yeah actually if you reduced the amount of recruiting it hurts losing kingdoms much more than winning kingdoms, so actually that would encourage snowballing even more. It would definitely help the player snowball much easier though, but can you snowball as fast as the AI? probably not. It's a very hard thing to balance.

 

[Zorion_no]

Yeah something else that would be nice is to have a more clear picture of how your strength to fief ratio impacts how others kingdoms sees yours (weak [to many fiefs compared to strength], average[appropriate amount of fiefs compared to strength], or strong[less fiefs compared to strength]). @mexxico @MRay I imagine some kind of fief to strength ratio number in the diplomacy screen or even something to sort by in the encyclopedia (similar to how wealth is generalized, i know you can sort by either strength or fiefs right now but I think a ratio of the two is much more telling)

Yeah actually if you reduced the amount of recruiting it hurts losing kingdoms much more than winning kingdoms, so actually that would encourage snowballing even more. It would definitely help the player snowball much easier though, but can you snowball as fast as the AI? probably not. It's a very hard thing to balance.

True I can see that latter point with it hurting the loosing kingdomes more(but that would also mean that it could possibly be more coveted? to hire the mercenary companies, or that the kingdomes would go for peace faster, as they see the way the hen kicks).

But yah overall it would be nice with the other suggestions you did in terms of gageing the strength part.


I think thats part of the problem to some regard, as the kingdomes are showing as 4k strength, but only 1k of that is under control of the armies for example(not correct numbers but you get the idea).
Then when they loose the lords to command the armies as in the case of this original post - they still see themselves as 3k strong vs 4k strong enemy and thus wont go to peace.

I'm not saying that there should be peace all the time etc, but as I've said if you have my kind of playstyle once you hit that point there is 2 outcomes ->
1. you just stop going to frontlines and all the progress is wiped out, as they dont want to have peace.
2. you keep on going and engaging etc - which means constant warfare with little to no downtime to do other stuff(crafting/visiting your fiefs etc)(thus manageing them can be frustrating if your holdings is deep in your land and you rank 3 wall is done, and you want to change the festival & games that it was set on default to something else, but travelling from one part of the map to the other takes you 3-4 days 1 way, and by the time you are back in the action -> the enemy have taken 2-3 fiefs or more or raided so much that there will be revolts in the cities etc.
(yes I know I'm too "attached" etc).
Cause with my playstyle you end up with constant warfare and I'm just not thinking its "fun".

I rarely rule my own kingdomes, even though the few times I've done it, the ai leaves me be even if I'm thick in the middle of 3-4 factions lands.
Cause thats where the "strength" part comes in. (My town filled to max with milita and high tier troops + 4 parties in my army, all fairly decent)

Although in 1.6 there is actually something showing the clans strength now btw.
But it dont show how the scale is as under command of a lord or in fiefs etc.

 

[murtega]

True I can see that latter point with it hurting the loosing kingdomes more(but that would also mean that it could possibly be more coveted? to hire the mercenary companies, or that the kingdomes would go for peace faster, as they see the way the hen kicks).

But yah overall it would be nice with the other suggestions you did in terms of gageing the strength part.


I think thats part of the problem to some regard, as the kingdomes are showing as 4k strength, but only 1k of that is under control of the armies for example(not correct numbers but you get the idea).
Then when they loose the lords to command the armies as in the case of this original post - they still see themselves as 3k strong vs 4k strong enemy and thus wont go to peace.

I'm not saying that there should be peace all the time etc, but as I've said if you have my kind of playstyle once you hit that point there is 2 outcomes ->
1. you just stop going to frontlines and all the progress is wiped out, as they dont want to have peace.
2. you keep on going and engaging etc - which means constant warfare with little to no downtime to do other stuff(crafting/visiting your fiefs etc)(thus manageing them can be frustrating if your holdings is deep in your land and you rank 3 wall is done, and you want to change the festival & games that it was set on default to something else, but travelling from one part of the map to the other takes you 3-4 days 1 way, and by the time you are back in the action -> the enemy have taken 2-3 fiefs or more or raided so much that there will be revolts in the cities etc.
(yes I know I'm too "attached" etc).
Cause with my playstyle you end up with constant warfare and I'm just not thinking its "fun".

I rarely rule my own kingdomes, even though the few times I've done it, the ai leaves me be even if I'm thick in the middle of 3-4 factions lands.
Cause thats where the "strength" part comes in. (My town filled to max with milita and high tier troops + 4 parties in my army, all fairly decent)

Although in 1.6 there is actually something showing the clans strength now btw.
But it dont show how the scale is as under command of a lord or in fiefs etc.

Wasted too many good campaigns battling this and eventually the solution I found is,

1- Either don't have too many fiefs or don't put too many people in garrisons. I realized this cycle of endless wars start after each time I own a second fief and I have it's garrison fully packed as well as the first one. On my recent one I own only one town (I always give away when they grant me a second) and even if it's garrison is full, our total strength barely triggers a second kingdom to declare war on us. If they do, my ally lords are more willing to make peace than my earlier campaigns. I'll keep playing like this until I decide to rebel, then change my policy for preparation, etc.
2- Watch for little opportunities such as another kingdom declare war on your enemy or one of your ally armies lose a battle. First occasion results with the liege of your enemy to open up his purse, though it's a very short period of time as they immediately make peace. You should pay attention to the game log. Second is a very short period too since it curbs your kingdom's strength until new idle lords pop up and start recruiting. If you propose peace when this happens, you'll see at least some of your allies want peace and if you have some influence to spare, you can turn the voting in your favor.

Not that there's a lot to do during peace time though but the endless wars really become tiring.

 

[Zorion_no]

Wasted too many good campaigns battling this and eventually the solution I found is,

1- Either don't have too many fiefs or don't put too many people in garrisons. I realized this cycle of endless wars start after each time I own a second fief and I have it's garrison fully packed as well as the first one. On my recent one I own only one town (I always give away when they grant me a second) and even if it's garrison is full, our total strength barely triggers a second kingdom to declare war on us. If they do, my ally lords are more willing to make peace than my earlier campaigns. I'll keep playing like this until I decide to rebel, then change my policy for preparation, etc.
2- Watch for little opportunities such as another kingdom declare war on your enemy or one of your ally armies lose a battle. First occasion results with the liege of your enemy to open up his purse, though it's a very short period of time as they immediately make peace. You should pay attention to the game log. Second is a very short period too since it curbs your kingdom's strength until new idle lords pop up and start recruiting. If you propose peace when this happens, you'll see at least some of your allies want peace and if you have some influence to spare, you can turn the voting in your favor.

Not that there's a lot to do during peace time though but the endless wars really become tiring.

The intrest in peace is 0% unless there is 2 or more kingdomes at war with us.
They can want peace if I dont "interfere" in the war - and they start loosing too much ground.
Imo this shoudlnt be needed atleast when we've lost more than the original starting lands.

About if the armies loose a battle, still dont want peace 0%.
We lost 2-3 armies of 500-900 men, and they havent lost 1 army per se, but they have lost about the same amount of troops, but they didnt loose the battles as they where on the defensive and thus had 2-3 armies meet the 1 of ours.

The issue for me is that there just isnt any desire for peace even if we loose the conqured lands, one would think that the lords that owned the fiefs being targeted or in their path would have wanted peace, so 2-3 of them, but none.

The only time the faction wants peace is if there is 2 vs 1 and not even then all the time.

I'm kind of curious if its related to the AI in the faction as I've rarely ever played other factions than Sturgia, is it just that they are too warmongering?
That if it was other factions they would be less warmongering?
I've played Battania and Northern Empire abit, and they werent all that much different though, Northern Empire maybe at that time got roflstomped by Khuzait when they where really op.
Battania we just kept on winning, and the other factions did want peace more often as they got attacked by other factions more.
Tbh as Battania at that time I didnt really need to be on the frontlines as much either, they just owned on their own.

Before that "point" of power so to speak, there was peace, and even long times of peace in this play, several weeks even.
But once we got that point it just never stops.

I wish there was an even more detailed explanation on what it takes to motivate the kingdomes for war than what is given still, so that we could for instance counter it more effective.

From what I understand your saying is that you think that its cause my "town is too powerful"? shouldnt that make them not want it.
I mostly just keep 1 town, and never a keep, always give those away, and I only have 1 town typically through the whole game.
Sometimes I take 2-3 if they are close by in a "secure location" typically.

Like if I rebel no one ever declares war on me, and the faction that I left is more than eager to go for peace, typically its very low like 1k I need to pay them tribute(which is peanuts when the town generate several thousands of denars).

I would rather have thougth that its there is too many fiefs etc with too little defense so they are "easy" targets teh ai think - thus wanting war and thinking they can pull it of.

Just dont feel "fun" when it drags on and on where the factions start at 4k vs 4k, and they grind on eachother until its 2k vs 2k - and there is 0% intrest in peace.
Then out of nowehere the enemy on the opposite part of the map declares war, intrest in peace is 100%

I think it would have been better if they wanted peace sooner, when the "power" lvl is down too much in terms of active armies on the map (again to the original post all the power is the fiefs or most of it).
Peace happends, and lords is out boom 3-4k strength again in no time, but before they can mobilize 2 holdings is gone and the 3rd on the way.

Kind of like alot of the mechanics in play in Europe atleast in terms of war was causis belli + you didnt want to wage "too much war" as it also left you open for attack.

Anyways I'm hopeing they up the desire for peace abit, as I think its "just to low atm" but again if they dont fine, I'll just use mods post release.

 

[Zorion_no]

Addendum.. given the lack of peace due to winning -> it acts like a snowball though.
Until the 2nd kingdome or 3rd declare war, there isnt anything to stop us.

At the start of this war vs Vlandia the power ratio was about 6000 Sturgia, Vlandia 7500.
Now we're about 8000 and they are down into 2200.
They have lost caleus, Ormanfard, Tirby + Rovalt so far.
Most of their lords are in prison.
We are about to siege Ocs Hall, they have no real chance of getting back from this.
Unless there is a war declaration by a 3rd party.

This is just a prime-example where the peace should have been brokered much earlier, to they would have the manpower to lead armies to form defenses.

They are now offering 3,4k denars and there is 0% intrest in peace among us.
Unless a 3rd kingdome enters the war, Vlandia is going to be in an inrecoverable state fairly shortly they are already.

Thats why the game needs to put much more emphasis on wanting peace if most of its generals are in the dungeons.

 

[Agroplode]

Addendum.. given the lack of peace due to winning -> it acts like a snowball though.
Until the 2nd kingdome or 3rd declare war, there isnt anything to stop us.

At the start of this war vs Vlandia the power ratio was about 6000 Sturgia, Vlandia 7500.
Now we're about 8000 and they are down into 2200.
They have lost caleus, Ormanfard, Tirby + Rovalt so far.
Most of their lords are in prison.
We are about to siege Ocs Hall, they have no real chance of getting back from this.
Unless there is a war declaration by a 3rd party.

This is just a prime-example where the peace should have been brokered much earlier, to they would have the manpower to lead armies to form defenses.

They are now offering 3,4k denars and there is 0% intrest in peace among us.
Unless a 3rd kingdome enters the war, Vlandia is going to be in an inrecoverable state fairly shortly they are already.

Thats why the game needs to put much more emphasis on wanting peace if most of its generals are in the dungeons.

They want peace but they offer so little money and got so little resistance that none of your allies are interested,

I think the game should allow for greater rewards for victory under these circumstances, like the enemy paying tribute not only in Denars but also some land including fiefs and all and some horses and giving up some of their war gear like armor and weapons. Then perhaps even hostages to ensure the peace treaty is solid for say 1 year or so. They could also become a vassal state for a year and be required to support any military action by you,

 

[Lesbosisles]

By the way, @mexxico , since you have mentioned the tritute system here, I would like to ask you, how is it work.

I do not quite understand the mechanism: here's an example. As an Aserai, we waged the war against the Western Empire. The troop count was uneven, but, at the end we've managed to reduce their troops to plus-minus even numbers - about 6000 men. We've managed to conquer Ortysia and hold it for 2 sieges. We took about 21 lords as a prisoners, while they had about 7. So, to sum up - we've reduced their troop numbers sufficiently and managed to conquer and hold a city while they conquered none. However, after the peace treaty, WE have to pay the tribute, not them. Why?

 

[Zorion_no]

So I wonder with the original poster or others who struggle to get peace if they could help me out abit?

I suffer from the same that most of the enemy lords 20-30 of them is in prison, we are winning most battles etc, and thus I'm thinking its no wonder we dont want peace, especially when the others only want to offer 2k tribute, and we can take their towns which would rake in what 5 towns earning 3-5k pr town so about 20k, add in castles etc if we conquer all.

But then I decide to go for Derther's lands Talivel castle + Sargoth, take them, still 0% intrest in peace.
The other armies is now sieging Ormanfard castle + 1 is sieging Usanc castle, given that I was at Sargoth I decide to help the ones at Usanc -> there is 2 armies of Vlandia engageing whne I get there but with my army we win that battle.

Here is the thing -> after the war there intrest in peace is still at 0% and the offer is about 3k tribute.
I start to head back to Sargoth to dump prisoners and loot, on the way I notice that the 3-4 mercenary companies that Vlandia had, all leave.

When I arrive at Sargoth, well actually before I get there -> boom peace offer is on the table 5k denars and 68% wanting peace.

I think that you need make the factions more even in wealth, as in this case the war had gone on for almost 3 years and in between the start of the war we'd also waged war on Battania(which didnt have mercenaries and after a few heavy defeats for them + 2 lost castles they wanted peace).

I think that part of the issue with the Merc's is that "boost" the strength of some empries that can afford them too much, and thus keep on being hired and bringing in high tier troops, thus the AI sees themselves as being capable of winning or turning the tide.


At the start of the war the ratio was roughly 6k power on our side, and 7k on Vlandia.
End of the war it was 8k our and 4k after that battle at Usanc, but soon as those merc companies left, it fell down to 2,2k power for Vlandia.

Needs to have better "decisions" for when AI want peace(they conquered 2 of our towns but they lost them to rebellions, and since they couldnt go to siege them, those 2 are now independnt clans permanent, well ok 1 joined us actually)

I'm starting to think that part of the issue for me is that I play Sturgia and its such a poor faction, and thus dont hire mercs enough.
Though the enemy do and so we have "prolonged wars" that dont go nowhere.

Thats why I still rant/***** about that there needs to be more that the AI take into consideration for when to want peace, when both those 2 cities rebelled against Vlandia that they conquered, and they where already fighting a defensive war it would have made more sense that they would have wanted peace with us, so they could recapture those cities.
Not to mention the issue of overall if they have 20 or more of their lords in dungeons they really should be much more intrested in peace than they are.

 

[Apocal]

Man, just put in a gamble element to it: force clans calling for war to announce a wargoal (fiefs captured, successful raids, casualties inflicted, tribute gained, prisoners taken, etc.) then put a ticking peace timer on it to add urgency.

If the war succeeds, fine. If it fails, they lose all their influence and take a penalty to daily influence generation for 84 days.

 

[Zorion_no]

I think I've figured out why they dont sue for peace earlier.

So I'm also plagued with this that the AI "takes" to long to want peace and de facto you the player ends up doing the snowballing so yah its not a good design imo.
Should you not get a war declaration for long periods, you can cope, even sometimes with 1 its not enough to stall you enough.

So in this case what is the cause imo to why the ai DONT WANT PEACE WHEN 41 LORDS IS IN PRISON..

Well look at how many MERCENARY parties they have hired? Each company have 4 lords to lead them, so if you have 4 companies thats 16 extra lords they have so technically if 16 of them is imprisoned that means that the Western Empire in this case "only" have 25 of their own lords in the dungeons.

Now this is part of the problem, that in the "peace/war" system the ai dont seem to care about this factor at all.

I'll use my prime example here, so I had a 3 years war vs Vlandia in my current play.
I'm Sturgia, but we've conquered most of Battania aswell.
So during this war 2 times do Battania go to war, however after a few hard defeats for them, they want peace.
Vlandia on the other hand during 3 years and loss after loss, and city and keep after keep fall, 0 peace.

No wonder they have 5 mercenary companies hired constant..
Theese companies will drop contract, then get new forces, join rince repeat every so often.
Or rotate in with one of the other companies.

Thus Vlandias "power" dont really take much of a dip, as they keep on getting "buffed" up by theese companies in the "power" ratio.
Until you hit that crazy point like in this case where all the lords of the original kingdome + mercenary companies are in the dungeon and they will have peace.

In my case all of a sudden after a few keep cities of Vlandia fell, all of the companies left them, instant wanting peace and 5k tribute to us.

This is the issue for theese "endless wars" the ai needs to put more emphasis on the lords in dungeons and not the "power" ratio they have.

Like in this case of the original poster he have 13k power vs 2,2k when they want peace?
They should have begged for peace at a much earlier stage.

The problem is when the ai dont stop attacking early enough, and thus they get to "weak" for the long run, and wont really recover unless they cannibalize one of their next door neighbours and get abit more buffed up.

Need to add imo a check on the amount of lords imprisoned to "force" peace, or its part of the "player snowball" issue.

In the case of this war they should have wanted peace much earlier.
Then at a later stage go for a quick war to recapture some of the lands they had lost, and then want peace again.
Now its just too much of a grind.

I think overall the issue is the amount of lords that each faction can use/rotate between, vs how it was in Warband.
Where it was static and alot less lords, so if they botched a siege and got too many in dungeons they where much quicker to want peace.

Again (I'm just suggesting that you need to look at the mechanics more or if you like it like it is then fine, I'll just resort to mods regardless when the game is out of EA)(Not useing mods during EA, to get as much vanilla bugs/issues as possible).


I'd really love if there was a way to disble the merc companies tbh, and to see if this would "prove" my theory about them makeing wars drag on too long.

 

[Apocal]

I'd really love if there was a way to disble the merc companies tbh, and to see if this would "prove" my theory about them makeing wars drag on too long.

Use the console command "campaign.kill_hero [name]" and the entire faction goes poof currently.

I can spare you the effort of testing and tell you that you're right though; that is the intended function of the minor factions, to drag out wars even when one side is losing very badly.

 

[Zorion_no]

Use the console command "campaign.kill_hero [name]" and the entire faction goes poof currently.

I can spare you the effort of testing and tell you that you're right though; that is the intended function of the minor factions, to drag out wars even when one side is losing very badly.

Tnx for the info, and tnx for telling that "I'm right".

Well then it prolly need to be dialed out though, as it kind of have atleast in my plays just a snowball effect for the playerfaction.
Either they need to reduce the amount of merc companies that factions can hire dial it down to 2-3 perhaps so they have 8-12 lords instead of 20 extra.

I get the mechanics intention but in this case it actually ends up hurting the faction who hire them, as they are in my plays typically left in a state where they cant recover, or fall prey to other factions soon as our war is over.

Also in faction vs faction where the player isnt in, it kind of hurts them to counter snowballing to some degree by other, as they cant hire the merc companies cause they are all with the 1 in the "main-war" with the player.

Again I'm not advocating this to end wars per se, but to not get the faction who just wont "bend its knee" and take peace, to do it quicker so they arent totally broken after.

 

[Zorion_no]

Hm.. I've done abit more study on it in terms of why just dont the AI "give up" or only when its "too late".

1. They hire to many merc companies to counter the faction the player is in.
Thus haveing 20-40 lords isnt that big impact since many of those are the merclords.
Side effect of this that is negative is that the AI VS AI wont be able to hire enough mercs to help them counter 2 vs 1 wars.

2. I'm "too powerful". I think this is the part that dont seem to play well in terms of the AI lords in my kingdome not wanting peace and we are seen as too powerful. I put almost 100 more troops into my fiefs than the rest of the lords, and quality troops aswell.
I have myself + 3 lords each with full rosters and fairly decent troops, few recruit, most t1 or better.
Thus the AI thinks we are superpowerful and can fight 2-3 enemies at once(which we sort of can, but that means I got to be in the frontlines ALWAYS which is tanking the fun, and there is never peace, as you get peace by haveing a new war or declareing one).(chain wars)

So I took a backup of my saves, and then I loaded back to before I became a vassal and just kept on being a merc for them instead.
Lo and behold now the wars are shorter(not running for years and years) there is often desire for peace fairly soon.

So I think what someone said either in this thread or another about the "endless wars" about not takeing any fiefs at all, is the key for those of us who have a playstyle the devs apperently dont cater to.
Just be a merc, or stop dumping troops in your fiefs, and dont have any other lords commanding in your clan thus not boosting the power of the realm as much as we prolly do.

I think the AI lords individually should be abit more concerned about the state of the realm, and thus look more into that the desire for war in terms of wanting peace(like rebellions, starving cities, proximity to frontlines, their own strength and not that of the realm overall).

 

[Agroplode]

I downloaded the mod Diplomacy for 1.6.0 to test it while testing the patch.

And so far there is peace in all Calradia, there was a few wars in the start but they made peace and now there are many non aggression pacts and such and only some minor clans are at war with the big factions.