Harding Grim
Squire
But the Jatu horses need to eat delicious delicious elf flesh. Why do you hate horses so much mate?
3.8 Balance Suggestion
- Thread starter Ralyks18
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hunterkiller725
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some sugestions i have for the fierds, keep in mind some of these are probally counter to the lore
split the archer tree into archers(who will still need a buff) and skirmishers with throwing spears and javalins, maybe with spears as there secondary as a way to stop cavalry charges.
give them more and better kho, maybe replace the kho in windholm with a new order of super heavy calvalry with two handers a powerful order on par with shadow centurions
make there mid tier infantry tougher across the board
split the archer tree into archers(who will still need a buff) and skirmishers with throwing spears and javalins, maybe with spears as there secondary as a way to stop cavalry charges.
give them more and better kho, maybe replace the kho in windholm with a new order of super heavy calvalry with two handers a powerful order on par with shadow centurions
make there mid tier infantry tougher across the board
hunterkiller725 said:
Sorry to differ on this, but Fierdsvain has the reputation of being a melee shock infantry kingdom, which the strongest infantry and one of his troop (huscarl) holding almost the strongest shield (after the noldor). Making its troop tree wider wont solve its ranged weakness.
hunterkiller725 said:
Well, they do have the Valkiries and the Dawn, which are kinda heavy cavalry, not as strong as heavy centurions tho, but still strong. Maybe shifting the Ebony to Fierdsvain will help out their ranged disadvantage, but still, it wont fit, as this KHO hates the noldor, and they wouldn't get themselves on the other side of the map if they wanted to kill 'em.
The most logical and probably simplest thing to do is change Windsholm location, as it tends to get captured in the first war against the D'Shar which the D'Shar just use it to snowball even harder...
My suggestion: cut down the caverly in minor factions
It doesn't fit with the realism the game is going for by having mostly only nobles on horses.
Which is a good thing, because that's how it's supposed to be.
But bandits who just run you over with horses? Doesn't seem right.
Alright, the Jatu are an exeption to this. But I faced armies of 800 Mystmountain which consisted out of 500 horses.
That's not enjoyable to play but also it's just plain unrealistic.
Just look at it; us players have a hard time getting good caverly, if we don't have a castle (which you probably won't for atleast 100 days) you're stuck with riders from D'Shar en Ravenstern. Which aren't that good... But a group of bandits can just run you over
It doesn't fit with the realism the game is going for by having mostly only nobles on horses.
Which is a good thing, because that's how it's supposed to be.
But bandits who just run you over with horses? Doesn't seem right.
Alright, the Jatu are an exeption to this. But I faced armies of 800 Mystmountain which consisted out of 500 horses.
That's not enjoyable to play but also it's just plain unrealistic.
Just look at it; us players have a hard time getting good caverly, if we don't have a castle (which you probably won't for atleast 100 days) you're stuck with riders from D'Shar en Ravenstern. Which aren't that good... But a group of bandits can just run you over
InstantBlade
Sergeant
There are too many horses in Pendor.
Every faction and minor faction has horses and horsemen everywhere. It's simply too much and detracts from the fun of the game and the strategy aspects of the game (IMO). I find myself fielding mostly cavalry because even with the slight extra cost, it is the best type of unit to have on the field, hands down.
This, in my opinion, makes us rush to ever more powerful units and mostly horsemen lines, in order to be able to both resist the cavalry charges of the enemy and quickly reach their archer lines (i.e. Noldor).
It isn't necessary, and it also makes a pretty nasty dificulty (PoP in general) become much easier when you have a good small-medium team of horse companions and knights.
If you want to have a balanced army, you can, sure. But then you ~will~ experiment that PoP difficulty head on, experience a lot of casualties, and simply not be as effective as with a horse-focused army.
Heck. Bandits have horses, low-life bandits as well. And that wouldn't be too bad, but some of them, despite having bad mounts and low armor, hit hard enough to be a problem.
So if you go with a - mostly - infantry and archer army, you will spend 95% of your fights dealing with cavalry charges. Again, and again, and again.
It's funny the first, say, 100 times, but then it gets old.
Cheers.
PS: This mod has been one of my favorite mods since M&B (original), a long long time ago. But only now I've noticed that everyone in Pendor rides.
PPS: A LOT, and I do mean a lotty lot of the Fierdsvain troops now ride horses. What the heck?...
PPPS: What the guy ^ above ^ said. +1 (EDIT: To make things clear. I'm not being omfgromplstompped by the enemy, quite the contrary, but I am 'forced' to use old style M&B tactics. Remember when you could just get only horsemen with Swadia and crush all opposition? Yeah, those lame days).
Every faction and minor faction has horses and horsemen everywhere. It's simply too much and detracts from the fun of the game and the strategy aspects of the game (IMO). I find myself fielding mostly cavalry because even with the slight extra cost, it is the best type of unit to have on the field, hands down.
This, in my opinion, makes us rush to ever more powerful units and mostly horsemen lines, in order to be able to both resist the cavalry charges of the enemy and quickly reach their archer lines (i.e. Noldor).
It isn't necessary, and it also makes a pretty nasty dificulty (PoP in general) become much easier when you have a good small-medium team of horse companions and knights.
If you want to have a balanced army, you can, sure. But then you ~will~ experiment that PoP difficulty head on, experience a lot of casualties, and simply not be as effective as with a horse-focused army.
Heck. Bandits have horses, low-life bandits as well. And that wouldn't be too bad, but some of them, despite having bad mounts and low armor, hit hard enough to be a problem.
So if you go with a - mostly - infantry and archer army, you will spend 95% of your fights dealing with cavalry charges. Again, and again, and again.
It's funny the first, say, 100 times, but then it gets old.
Cheers.
PS: This mod has been one of my favorite mods since M&B (original), a long long time ago. But only now I've noticed that everyone in Pendor rides.
PPS: A LOT, and I do mean a lotty lot of the Fierdsvain troops now ride horses. What the heck?...
PPPS: What the guy ^ above ^ said. +1 (EDIT: To make things clear. I'm not being omfgromplstompped by the enemy, quite the contrary, but I am 'forced' to use old style M&B tactics. Remember when you could just get only horsemen with Swadia and crush all opposition? Yeah, those lame days).
Been trying Pop v3.7063,as impassioned the suggestions and counter-suggestions have been for the most part the consensus is that Fierdsvain are at a slight disadvantage.
There is a natural boundary-that is a body of water,hills,mountains that separate most of the factions,obliging each
faction to navigate around these natural boundaries to attack each other.One can even say that Sarleon is protected by a large mountain
on one side and other towns by rivers.
The Fierds can benefit if the natural boundary of hills(mountains) between them and the D'Shar can be use as a buffer by removing the High Pass Fortress access to Windholm,thus obliging the other factions to make a longer trek like they would in to order to attack Cez,Nal Tar, Avendor ,or Rane respectively.
There is a natural boundary-that is a body of water,hills,mountains that separate most of the factions,obliging each
faction to navigate around these natural boundaries to attack each other.One can even say that Sarleon is protected by a large mountain
on one side and other towns by rivers.
The Fierds can benefit if the natural boundary of hills(mountains) between them and the D'Shar can be use as a buffer by removing the High Pass Fortress access to Windholm,thus obliging the other factions to make a longer trek like they would in to order to attack Cez,Nal Tar, Avendor ,or Rane respectively.
Good stuffs! Add bigger throwing weapons so you can actually use them effectively in melee. Also losing units on the max difficulty doesn't make much of a difference to me because I have to constantly hire more to cover up the losses but having more durable troops in my army would surely help inevitably. This could actually work... good luck on working on the update. Thumps up!! 
Edit: "minor bans (bands) for loot" and "there are plenty to chose (choose) from". PS: Don't hate me
Edit: "minor bans (bands) for loot" and "there are plenty to chose (choose) from". PS: Don't hate me
Exactly, to many horses.InstantBlade said:
Horses should be more rare for factions that don't have horse riding as a culture.
Factions like Sarleon, Fierdsvain and the Empire should have less horses. Those are all inspired by factions that were more infantry based (espiaclly the Empire as it is based upon the roman army!)
There weren't that many knights. Most armies excisted of plain infantry. Maybe knights could become stronger but less in numbers?
I think it would also make for more intresting and tactical gameplay
Please do not nerf the AI anymore! What makes PoP my favorite is that it's the ONLY mod where the AI has enough cavalry to pose a decent fight for the player. Sure the AI will still get creamed, but it's not a total cakewalk. It's crucial that the AI have lots of cavalry because it's likely the AI will face a mostly cavalry player with only high tier troops. Reducing the amount of cavalry would cripple the AI and the player has enough advantages already.
The only change I see necessary is to buff the Fierds. I think giving them more HP would be a simple solution. Perhaps add more household troops and raising weapon proficiencies, but really I'm not that much in favor of messing with too much as there can be drastic unintended consequences (like with weapon changes, just a single weapon change could drastically improve or decrease the effectiveness of a troop type).
Pendor does not need a buff, if anything it needs to be nerfed as it already has a great cheap archer in the Pendor Armored Bowman. It also now has a top tier infantry in Pendor Bladesman. This troop should be removed as it makes Pendor have no weaknesses, but if the developers are fine, I'm not going to complain. Pendor also has a hard hitting two-handed cavalry unit, again no weaknesses. The way it was before was fine where Pendor troops could upgrade to very good Knighthood Order troops, but had weak infantry. They've always had great archers. The weak infantry was the only weakness really of the faction.
As for throwing weapons, the axe is not very effective. The spears and javelins are far more deadly. I think the developers are right to ignore most of the suggestions as they would mess up the fine balance and gameplay of the mod. No need to change too much when PoP is already the best mod by far in terms of AI troop and gameplay balance.
The only change I see necessary is to buff the Fierds. I think giving them more HP would be a simple solution. Perhaps add more household troops and raising weapon proficiencies, but really I'm not that much in favor of messing with too much as there can be drastic unintended consequences (like with weapon changes, just a single weapon change could drastically improve or decrease the effectiveness of a troop type).
Pendor does not need a buff, if anything it needs to be nerfed as it already has a great cheap archer in the Pendor Armored Bowman. It also now has a top tier infantry in Pendor Bladesman. This troop should be removed as it makes Pendor have no weaknesses, but if the developers are fine, I'm not going to complain. Pendor also has a hard hitting two-handed cavalry unit, again no weaknesses. The way it was before was fine where Pendor troops could upgrade to very good Knighthood Order troops, but had weak infantry. They've always had great archers. The weak infantry was the only weakness really of the faction.
As for throwing weapons, the axe is not very effective. The spears and javelins are far more deadly. I think the developers are right to ignore most of the suggestions as they would mess up the fine balance and gameplay of the mod. No need to change too much when PoP is already the best mod by far in terms of AI troop and gameplay balance.
Alavaria said:
Fierds already have a numbers advantage--their lords have higher renown and charisma on average. That's a big reason they did well in 3.6--good auto calc strength.
Recruiting fierd lords and switching them to sarleon / dshar culture is a nice trick.
I spent the last few days trying to balance 3.8 factions and today I would like to ask about your opinion.
I have run 18 games, each time new start, each 9 months long, no interference from my side. Results are gathered in a table below. In columns on the right, each row number mean % of gain/lost of initial territory:
What do you think: is the game random enough? Feedback appreciated as I plan to finish this activity tonight.
I have run 18 games, each time new start, each 9 months long, no interference from my side. Results are gathered in a table below. In columns on the right, each row number mean % of gain/lost of initial territory:
What do you think: is the game random enough? Feedback appreciated as I plan to finish this activity tonight.
It kinda looks like the Empire could use a small buff. They seem to lose a lot of holdings compared to the others, so could potentially do with more defensive siege ability (they have the two biggest losses). That said we do not want it too balanced so there is persistent status quo, but this would mean that there should be fewer significant swings so early on.
One of the biggest problems the Empire suffers is Snake Cult being particularly active through their territory, both my patrols that damage the economy and delay/murder caravans and villagers and the 2 different spawns they have which can rarely be fought by the Empire, Snake Cult Army (which if left unkilled, they start up stacking, I've seen 3 of these in my last gameplay) and the Dread Legion. It is true that Empire is the closest kingdom to Noldor as well, but without player influence, its not often to see a patrol being lured out of their forests to the Empire territory.
Posible solutions:
Second suggestion would suit for balance the most, as this will also be a slight nerf to Sarleon and D'Shar, both seeming bit stronger than the rest in your testing.
Surely there can be more suggestions coming up, but i just thought of these ones.
Posible solutions:
- reduce the frequency at which these Snake Cult warbands and parties spawn
- move these spawning spots from deep inside in the empire to be nearer the frontiers, making the empire not suffer them so hard, and serving as well as a dissuading army not only constantly for the empire, but also for nearby Sarleon/D'Shar armies when in war. this will also move some of the pressure the snake cult exerts to the neighbor kingdoms.
- tone up some empire lords, maybe giving guardian empire knight to one more (in 3.7 there are 2 that hold them) and Iron Circle Centurions to one more (in 3.7, only Agathon Legatus creates them)
- increase the chance of a kho of any of the 3 empire cities to spawn, these small parties deal well with the small warbands, beating them, shooing them or if weaker, starting an unfair fight hoping that any empire lord is nearby and joins to aid them (which on his own, the empire lord wont be able to reach the warband).
Second suggestion would suit for balance the most, as this will also be a slight nerf to Sarleon and D'Shar, both seeming bit stronger than the rest in your testing.
Surely there can be more suggestions coming up, but i just thought of these ones.
Hate my poor english hope I can improve it during my future foreign study.
My suggestions:
Needn't to be too balance,as mordred said.Fitting the lore is one of the most important thing,plz don't forget that.
Then,for my very personal idea ,Just keep the sarleon strong ,a little nerf to Dshar is okay,and u can buff the empire by upgrade their lord's states.
if possible,reduce the frequency of singalian's spawn,they are the perfect protector of Dshar,that's one of the reason that why Dshar is so strong .
Last,you can nerf the frequency of noldor party's spawn.I can see many weak or medium empire lords be defeated by noldor,as the spawn of noldor is also too frequent.
Hope it helps.
hope I can improve it during my future foreign study.My suggestions:
Needn't to be too balance,as mordred said.Fitting the lore is one of the most important thing,plz don't forget that.
Then,for my very personal idea ,Just keep the sarleon strong ,a little nerf to Dshar is okay,and u can buff the empire by upgrade their lord's states.
if possible,reduce the frequency of singalian's spawn,they are the perfect protector of Dshar,that's one of the reason that why Dshar is so strong .
Last,you can nerf the frequency of noldor party's spawn.I can see many weak or medium empire lords be defeated by noldor,as the spawn of noldor is also too frequent.
Hope it helps.
Before I started Empire was the strongest one and, even with Snake Cult armies roaming around, was able to crush Sarleon, fight as equal with D'Shar. So Snakes are not that important overall.
The problem were Fierdsvain conquered by D'Shar and Ravenstern, Sarleon falling apart by day 200. As new D'Shar and Empire are roughly equal (~50:50 in 1 vs. 1 wars) they created a baseline, a center to balance other factions around. Fierdsvain were buffed, so they could fight with D'Shar. Then Ravenstern a bit to help them protect their land against green horde. Sarleon a lot, otherwise they were divided between blue and yellow. Empire end up a bit weaker only because Sarleon is stronger now.
It is quite complicated as there are so many variables, everything is connection cited, but it seems that Empire will need additional Gladiator here and there.
The problem were Fierdsvain conquered by D'Shar and Ravenstern, Sarleon falling apart by day 200. As new D'Shar and Empire are roughly equal (~50:50 in 1 vs. 1 wars) they created a baseline, a center to balance other factions around. Fierdsvain were buffed, so they could fight with D'Shar. Then Ravenstern a bit to help them protect their land against green horde. Sarleon a lot, otherwise they were divided between blue and yellow. Empire end up a bit weaker only because Sarleon is stronger now.
It is quite complicated as there are so many variables, everything is connection cited, but it seems that Empire will need additional Gladiator here and there.
Here are my thoughts on the OP
1)"Give Fierdsvain Heavy Archer longbows or short composite bows to fulfil their actual purpose as missile troops"
Short composite bows, because there are already a great number of longbow users and Sarleon and Ravenstern hold that category firmly, why make a clone of the Sarleon Armored Longbowman in green colors?
It doesn't have to be as good as SAL or RR it`s strength will be it`s versatility as both a mid range archer and decent melle unit!
2) "Add more throwing weapons to Fierdsvain(elite) Infantrymen's equipment to make the faction's strength clear."
Add more throwing axes to fierd`s medium and high/elite infantry. I feel that throwing axes are very under used and it would be cool if they saw more action. Give them to more than just the absolute elites of the fierds roster, and you reinforce the ideea of the fierds being an assault oriented faction, with a hail of axes thrown just before the lines engage! IF you only give very few units Throwing Axes, or only the elites i dont think it would have such a big impact on their strenght as a faction
More over i would keep their elites as they are, well berserkers should stay as they are , no Throwing Axes, Husks could get them, but i think it would be more impactfull and enjoyable if their regular line of infantry get them. well not T1 or T2 but the rest. (i may have forgoten how many T`s there are )
3) "Give a small overall buff to the non-noble mercenary troop tree, as the strongest ranged unit hits 170 crossbow proficiency (mercenary armored crossbowman) and strongest melee unit, which is a 6th tier unit, only 250(mercenary sergeant). I agree their price should be higher than usual as they're mercenaries, but now, it's just overpaying for troops that are just too weak. They seemed to be created for the early game, where the player needs to group up a small group of soldiers to chase minor bans for loot, as later on, the player just cant hold on to pay a mercenary army, but even in the early game, they struggle to do so, they just feel too weak.
Give Armoured Mercenary Crossbowmen heavy crossbows to differentiate from their juniors (now, both have Crossbow). This could be a fix for the ranged mercenary troops, which will make them actually stand a chance on a siege or when trading shots on the plain battlefield. Still tho, the melee troops need a stat increase."
YES TO ALL
I based this suggestions more on the rule of cool and rule of lore (as much as i know of it). I think they would suit the fierds fine, them being sailors and viking inspired warriors.
I feel the rest are more or less fine,
Making Rave Higlanders faster is good also
1)"Give Fierdsvain Heavy Archer longbows or short composite bows to fulfil their actual purpose as missile troops"
Short composite bows, because there are already a great number of longbow users and Sarleon and Ravenstern hold that category firmly, why make a clone of the Sarleon Armored Longbowman in green colors?
It doesn't have to be as good as SAL or RR it`s strength will be it`s versatility as both a mid range archer and decent melle unit!
2) "Add more throwing weapons to Fierdsvain
Add more throwing axes to fierd`s medium and high/elite infantry. I feel that throwing axes are very under used and it would be cool if they saw more action. Give them to more than just the absolute elites of the fierds roster, and you reinforce the ideea of the fierds being an assault oriented faction, with a hail of axes thrown just before the lines engage! IF you only give very few units Throwing Axes, or only the elites i dont think it would have such a big impact on their strenght as a faction
More over i would keep their elites as they are, well berserkers should stay as they are , no Throwing Axes, Husks could get them, but i think it would be more impactfull and enjoyable if their regular line of infantry get them. well not T1 or T2 but the rest. (i may have forgoten how many T`s there are
)3) "Give a small overall buff to the non-noble mercenary troop tree, as the strongest ranged unit hits 170 crossbow proficiency (mercenary armored crossbowman) and strongest melee unit, which is a 6th tier unit, only 250(mercenary sergeant). I agree their price should be higher than usual as they're mercenaries, but now, it's just overpaying for troops that are just too weak. They seemed to be created for the early game, where the player needs to group up a small group of soldiers to chase minor bans for loot, as later on, the player just cant hold on to pay a mercenary army, but even in the early game, they struggle to do so, they just feel too weak.
Give Armoured Mercenary Crossbowmen heavy crossbows to differentiate from their juniors (now, both have Crossbow). This could be a fix for the ranged mercenary troops, which will make them actually stand a chance on a siege or when trading shots on the plain battlefield. Still tho, the melee troops need a stat increase."
YES TO ALL
I based this suggestions more on the rule of cool and rule of lore (as much as i know of it). I think they would suit the fierds fine, them being sailors and viking inspired warriors.
I feel the rest are more or less fine,
Making Rave Higlanders faster is good also
Lord-Latis said:
What am I touching about the lore? Im still saying to remain the Snake Cult inside the Empire, but not so deep inside.
Lord-Latis said:
According to the first quote I did, how this follows the lore? Noldors know that they are weak and are forced to hide in the forest, why would some of them chase Empire lords around Ethos? I think Noldor is fine, most of their few patrols dont even fight once, they are just wandering the forests since they spawn. Maybe move them closer to the Jatu so that it actually feels like they are fighting something, in this case, one enemy that really hates them (and that will fit that sometimes some warbands fullfilled with anger adventure themselves within the Noldor territory. This will also divert the attention from the Empire.
M0rdred said:
If thats true (which nor you nor me know), I do agree that will probably solve it.
Ralyks18 said:
Take it easy man,I am not meaning to aginst u nor I want to.In fact I just want to remain that it is vital to follow the background to everybody
Honestly I agree with most of your suggestions.