2h Weapon Repricing/Rebalancing

[Kapt Torbjorn]

Alright, there are some serious issues with the 2h weapons in the Warband Beta at the moment, as most of you already know.  For this post, I'm going to completely ignore the fact that the weapon lengths are completely unrealistic and fit better in a Final Fantasy game than M&B.  What I want to suggest is a rebalance to the cost of some different weapons so that 2 handed weapons don't dominate the battlefield in every game. 

First, let's look at the different faction's list of giant, massive damage dealing 2 handers

Nords:
Long Axe - 53c - 390 Gold - 120 Reach
Long War Axe - 55c - 510 Gold - 125 Reach
Great Long Axe - 56c - 620 Gold - 127 Reach

Vaegirs:
Great Long Bardiche - 54c - 340 Gold - 116 Reach

Rhodoks:
War Cleaver - 45c - 640 Gold - 120 Reach
*(Special Case)*Warhammer - 45b - 290 Gold - 75 Reach

Swadians:
Great Sword - 42c - 1123 Gold - 120 Reach

Khergits:
Don't have any really

Argument & Proposed Solution

Now, out of those weapons above, there is only one that is accurately priced according to the damage it can inflict, and that's the greatsword.  The weapons above all have the potential to kill people in 1 hit from full health, unless they have very good armour or only catch a glancing blow from one of them.  These weapons need to be given a steep increase in price in order to turn them from being the standard battlefield weapon, into weapons that are reserved for the elite and those who have the money to afford them.  In my opinion, the weapons should have these prices (or close to).


Nords:
Long Axe - 53c - 700 Gold - 120 Reach
Long War Axe - 55c - 1030 Gold - 125 Reach
Great Long Axe - 56c - 1560 Gold - 127 Reach

Vaegirs:
Great Long Bardiche - 54c - 1100 Gold - 116 Reach

Rhodoks:
War Cleaver - 45c - 920 Gold - 120 Reach
*(Special Case)*Warhammer - 45b - 680 Gold - 75 Reach

Swadians:
Great Sword - 42c - 1123 Gold - 120 Reach

Another possible solution, which I think should be included alongside the increase in price, is that throwing weapons should be brought back down to their original pricing.  Currently, you can buy a long axe that kills nearly everyone in 1 hit for just a slight bit more than a pack of 5 little javelins, which usually take 2-3 to kill enemies that aren't even wearing any armour.  Throwing weapons were the perfect counter for these weapons, as you could keep your distance and kill them without having to enter into their gigantic swing radius, but hardly anyone buys them anymore since they're too expensive to be worth the cost.

**Warhammer**  I included the warhammer in this list because it's also one of the extremely powerful 2h weapons available (some would argue the most powerful one).  It usually takes a maximum of two hits with a warhammer to kill even an enemy wearing top tier armour, and since the overhead gives you what seems to be a 90%+ chance of block crush + knockdown, fighting a warhammer user is one of the most frustrating experiences currently (make 1 mistake and you're dead).

Thoughts?

 

[Tibertus]

I agree, the great long bardiche, and all the nord long axes are terribly underpriced for the range, damage, and speed that you get. And the Rhodock two handed weapons are also underpriced, though not as bad I think.

 

[Kleidophoros]

Price is not the real problem here, those gigantic damage values are. Wearing top tier rhodok crossbowman armour and 1 hit kills me. 1 hit.

A few days ago in a server with %50 melee ff on, I was a nord infantry (toughest troop in game) wearing leather jerkin. A teammate swings his great axe (or long axe or great long axe, not sure) at me at spawn and that swing took %90 of my health. Which means if the FF was %100 he would take %180 of my health! Seriously? ****in overkill!

 

[okiN]

All of the above, except that reducing throwing weapon costs will let 2h spammers spam those as well.

And reducing 2h speed! I can't believe that's not on the poll!

Also, great long bardiche is longer than that, surely? I thought it was like 150 or something ridiculous like that.

 

[RF Nigth]

Agree the 2 handed weapons seams to grow like mushrooms!
Increase in price of those. but Then we may see more naked dudes.?

throwing weapons should be brought back down to their original pricing

I be carefull whit that the throwing weapons is sensitive there are excellent against horses
and the nords have almost good weapons against horses

 

[Turanien]

Agreed. The larger 2h weapons should be reserved only for those whom have earned the right to wield them; IE, through ultimate-kickass'ery. The Great-Long varients need to be hugely increased in price or, if not, scrapped entirely.

 

[Night Ninja]

The great long variants are bloody abominations and should be exterminated with extreme prejudice.

For the Khergits, the hafted blade definitely needs a buff. I know it's technically a polearm, but it is extremely underpowered and it bears mentioning in a thread that is related to balance issues.

 

[Maximo_khan]

haven't played for months but i'm not surprised to see the usual scissor man asking to nerf rock and an paper is fine.

altough i must say i do agree with some/most of your point, and i feel like pointing out i always being 24/7 infantry with 2h /polearm.

i dont agree with the price issue, seems to me you would want to make them so pricey that just few with enough money could afford them. i think is better to balance the shield/1h and 2h style of play, to have diversity of gameplay with pro and cons for both style. but again, balanced.
most people will know the difference in gamestyle, as a 2h "specialist" i'd say you always need to block right, you got no defence vs missile and couching apart dodging, you can use the distance and the new implemented kick to make it, to your advantage and so on so on.

nords
The worse 2h weapon are nord axes i'd say, they always being a bit op, now you even got a selection of long/great long/ubersupergreatlong and they even have the 4th stab attack now, the polearms one.
kill in 1hit, destroy shields easily, extreme reach.

rhodok
only 2h to complain about for rhodoks in my opinion is the warhammer, stun should be skill base if possible , no click with the right heavier weapon. also the almost guaranteed overhead block crash..no fun.

swadia

nothing has changed as far as i can see.

vaegirs

nice new weapon, but again sillyness of making a longer version of already existing weapons to beef up the weapon content. also the long version are cheaper and better in any stats, plus they got the 4th attack.

khergit

nice to see some sort of 2h polearm for khergit, i can finaly take a lancer no horse with a 2h and be infantry. those hafted blade are seriously up compared to the other weapons tought. all is missing now for them is a 2h heavy sabre. that ll be awesome.

 

[buzbybadman]

Voted 'other'.  Increasing the 'tax' is just a politicians answer, it doesn't solve the problem it just forms a key only the privileged can have, especially with the long axes as these would unlikely be expensive weapons to produce.  The answer is in the way they perform, particularly speed, these would be awkward weapons to handle.

 

[Arch3r]

100% Agreed, higher price, a bit lower damage and please make them SLOWER. The time it takes to swing it is ok, but it gets back into the ready position almost instantly.

 

[CryptoCactus]

Agree with making two-handers more expensive, and also agree with the others that mentioned they should be slower (on the recovery, not the actual swing speed, which is fine). I've been playing with 2h a lot lately, mostly for the manual blocking , but as it stands now there's very little reason for me to take a sidearm, as even good blockers can get surprised/outmaneuvered by the speed and/or feinting. The only reason to bring along a one-hander is if there's a chance I might get swamped by multiple ranged units (archers/crossbowmen/throwers). If I'm facing only one or two ranged units, I can usually just dodge or, barring that, pull out a shield (with no weapon) until I get close.


Disagree about the throwing weapon thing though. Before the price increase, they were freaking everywhere - melee was generally ignored in favor of having large-scale backpedaling throwing-dart fights, or what have you. Even now people will take 2-3 stacks of throwing weapons and either a shield or a free weapon, and.. it's just aggravating and silly. Honestly I don't know what needs to be done about throwing weapons - they shouldn't have the major, often preferable-to-melee role that they do now - but making them cheaper/more plentiful is definitely a bad thing.


Also, I would suggest all the Vaegir bardiches - not just the Great Long - need adjusting. The normal Long is the cheapest one available, even cheaper than the plain bardiche. It's 190 gold, iirc, for 50c damage and only a bit less length than the Great Long. The bardiche was ridiculously cheap for its power in 1.011, too.

As for the ridiculous MegaUberLong Axes.. they should either a) be eliminated entirely, or b) be remodeled into an actual poleaxe (smaller, lighter head, preferably with a spike or something on the end so that stabbing with them makes sense) and have damage reduced quite a bit (sacrificing power for reach and versatility). And they shouldn't be wielded 2h (i.e. baseball bat) style, ever. They are polearms, period. Really they're just completely preposterous.


edit: And actually, now that I think about it, I think it's vital that speed be adjusted on these big things, thus raising the skill bar.. if only price is raised, we'll end up with a feedback loop wherein only the best players have access to the uberweapons, while new players and less-than-stellar melee players will be struggling to get a single kill with their 20 damage spiked mace or free sword.

So basically, my suggestion is: leave Britney damage alone, raise cost, lower recovery speed. I stand by what I said about SuperMegaDeluxeLongAxes though.

 

[erix]

Voted "other",
I think it's simple: the greater and heavier weapon is, its speed should be reduced more...

 

[Skandinav]

For the sake of realism I think most 2handers work pretty good now ( of course all the new weapons still needs balancing, edit : and recovery could be slower on some of the old ones ). They are usually pretty slow ( except swords ), and if people think they are too fast they don't know their stats ( as opposed to those of other weapons ), don't know how they work in reality, base it on having met superior opponents, or they forget that they are often quicker to react in a fight because of the stun their heavy blows can impose upon an opponent, and not because they are faster.
And I think their current ability to maim in one good hit, like IRL, should be kept.

The thing is, I think, that historically, choosing to wield 2handers, and thus expose oneself, took a certain kind of man ( like King Alfred's huscarls ); only the most daring would sacrifice defense for offense - and while an armored long axe man could take more hits than his adversary in a fight against an armored swordsman with a shield, his life would still be far more at a risk than his fellows with shields throughout the various situations of a battle. This isn't really reflected properly in WB, of course because people tend not to care as much about dying as they would in reality.

That is why making them rare could be a good solution, through price or preferably other means. Also, making it much slower, or complicated, to pull out a shield would help a lot ( as has been discussed ).

 

[Gabeed]

The great long variants are bloody abominations and should be exterminated with extreme prejudice.

Hear, hear!!

 

[Skandinav]

Yes, agreed.

 

[inox_ionizer]

I agree some prices/damage values should be reduced, but I think the main problem is in general combat mechanics, or more specifically; spinning and long stuns. Backpedalling can also cause ridicilous situations.

 

[Berserker Pride]

I liked how the glaive, which was the first long weapon introduced, handled balance.  It was the longest melee two-hander in the game but also one of the weakest in damage.  Long weapons already have the advantage of giving the ability to attack first.  I don't think long weapons as a rule should be frighteningly expensive otherwise they become a tool to take advantage of new players.  The way I see it long weapons should be one of two things.  Either weaker in damage than regular weapons like the glaive.  Or make them have a very slow recovery time.  Even for weapons with a long recovery time I don't see why a great long axe should do more damage than a great axe.

or

Implement Crazed Rabbits weapon mesh sweet spots.  There is something of an automatic system in place that is supposed to check if a long weapon is hitting someone at hugging distance.  But this automatic system doesn't take into account the differences in different weapons.  Swords have a much longer blade than an axe.  Swords should be able to hit someone from a variety of ranges in exchange for having a low base damage than axes.  But axes if they hit lower than the axehead should only be dealing the amount of damage that a spear smack does.  Properly implement weapon mesh sweet spots and really long weapons will instantly go from being a spammy noob weapon to a weapon requiring careful distance control.  In other words only the skilled players would be good with them.

 

[HTAPAWASO]

A price increase and longer recovery time are the needed things I think.

If you slow swing speed, they'll be trivially easy to block (even moreso than they are now), which is not a good thing, but at the moment you can attack with them far too quickly.

 

[Hanniba1]

One way to fix the long weapon problem is to make parry stun length a function of the length and weight of an attackers weapon. Currently the most unbalanced aspect of these two handers is the stun they put on one handers blocking. If parry were implemented correctly this problem could be fixed and the long weapons would be balanced without increasing throwing spam (please don't ever lower the price for throwing weapons).

 

[test]

I think throwing weapon costs should be reduced to their original prices.  Their speed was reduced so they have ponderous chambering and recovery windows, which leaves users vulnerable and predictable.  They're nothing like the older versions where you could whip them out of nowhere and go right back into a block.  Their stacks were reduced as well.  There is really no reason to have the prices so extremely prohibitive.  You're right that throwing weapons (and arrows/bolts) are the perfect counter against 2h.  If you've fought against Neih/Elohel, you'll see the best counter against him is projectiles.  He'll die a lot more often or be rendered ineffective when there's a ranged player supporting the battle - either he's stuck blocking, or get shots whenever he whips out a 2h.

In general, I think all weapons should have lengthened "hanging time" at the very end of swings (*only when they miss*), where they do no damage, are unable to cancel into block , and are left open for counter.  This would balance out players just wildly swinging away, as you could punish missed/off-balance swings.

I disagree with the rest.  I think players should spend time learning and practicing melee, particularly manual blocking, especially when it's getting deeper and deeper.  The big weapons have reach and do good damage, but are easy to block once you've practiced enough.  The long 2h's are great for killing lots of noobs, but that's because they think it's better to just focus on attacking and haven't found the right balance/timing - against a good player, they can be held off indefinitely.  I think the useless weapons/weapons that can never hit good blockers (like the Great Sword,  long spiked maces, etc) should be cheaper, have more mechanics (like leg tripping), or do more damage (esp spiked club), and brought in line with the useful ones.